Please list ALL biblical aspects of Christmas, if you can.

[bbbbbbb]

In the German Lutheran churches at the Christmas Eve service the candles are lit on the Christmas tree and it is a glorious sight. I knew a man who had emigrated to America from Germany. When he discovered that the Lutheran church does not light the candles on the Christmas tree at the Christmas eve service (and, in fact, many do not even have candles on the tree) he got really stressed out and threatened to quit the church. Although he did not quit, because of no other alternative, he did reduce his giving substantially.

Admittedly, he must be an extreme exception, but the Germans do take Christmas quite seriously.

 

[Strong in Him]

Dr. David A. deSilva, PhD is Trustees’ Distinguished Professor of New Testament and Greek and an ordained elder in the United Methodist Church. He is the author of over twenty-five books

I don't care if he is a Professor 6 x over and has written 1/4 million books.
Saying,

It is not the mere worshiping of the tree that people are doing; rather, the tree represents aspects of the human social enterprise – economic power, military power, political power, family and social networking, and the like. Secular (Pagan) society becomes its own object of worship.

is his opinion/hypothesis unless he can provide any evidence to the contrary.

What evidence does he have that people worship their trees?
What evidence does he have for saying that the tree represents economic power?
How can he say that the tree represents military/political power - how did he come to that conclusion?
"Secular (pagan) society becomes its own object of worship" - what does this even mean? Moreover, what does it mean for Christians who are aliens and travellers in the world and do not belong to it? We may be part of a pagan society; that is not where our home is, and we do not worship our society.

What evidence does he, or do you, have for saying that born again Christians who decide to decorate their homes with a Christmas tree, are worshipping it?
Because at best, this is a laughable suggestion; at worst, it is insulting.

 

[ToBeLoved]

To paraphrase David Arthur DeSilva’s “An Introduction to the New Testament”:

It is not the mere worshiping of the tree that people are doing; rather, the tree represents aspects of the human social enterprise – economic power, military power, political power, family and social networking, and the like. Secular (Pagan) society becomes its own object of worship.

All that in a tree?

 

[Strong in Him]

All that in a tree?

Wonder what seeds they used to produce such a tree?

 

[ToBeLoved]

Wonder what seeds they used to produce such a tree?

Ask Jack, he built a beanstalk.

Now where did Jack go ...

 

[Strong in Him]

I believe the tree metaphorically represents the tree in the garden.

So you believe that a Christmas tree metaphorically represents the tree of the knowledge of good and evil that was in the Garden of Eden?

Let's think about this.
The tree was a tree, created by God; it's fruit gave people the ability to distinguish good from evil. The tree itself had no power to make people sin, or tempt them. Adam's sin was disobeying God, NOT touching a tree. If God had said "don't pick the daffodils" and Adam had done it, that would be the same result - Adam knew that God had given him a command; he deliberately disobeyed. Note that afterwards, Adam, Eve and the serpent were cursed - not the tree.

When one bows down to accept a gift from the tree, they are doing three things: they want that present with their name on it (lust of the eye). After opening the gift and seeing what they received, it makes them feel good (lust of the flesh, pride of life).

Sorry, but no.

1. People do not accept a gift from the tree. The gift is from their relatives, who MAY place it under a tree. The only gifts that a tree can give, if it's alive, is its fruit, its leaves, its bark or itself, for wood. Many Christmas trees today are artificial.
2. If a gift is wrapped up with your name on it, then it's for you - from a friend or loved one. It is not lustful or covetous to want something that someone has lovingly bought/made for you.
3. Feeling happy that someone has thought of you and brought you a gift is not lust of the flesh, nor is it pride of life.
Maybe is someone was to receive a present and boast to other people that they have got something and that person hasn't, you could say that they are showing off, but a GIFT, which is not something that you have earned, is nothing to get conceited about - a gift says more about the giver than the receiver.
And how would that work if someone bought you a gift that you didn't actually want or like?

15
Do not love the world or the things of the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
16
For all that is in the world, sensual lust, enticement for the eyes, and pride life, is not from the Father but is from the world.
17
Yet the world and its enticement are passing away. But whoever does the will of God remains forever.

I humbly submit this not to enrage, but to testify, as to my personal path to Christ.

That may well be your testimony, it won't be everyone's. Being covetous, greedy, conceited and loving the world are not the same as receiving gifts at Christmas and may not be connected at all.

I'm afraid that if you cannot see the metaphorical imagery, you are missing my point.

Or your metaphorical imagery is wrong.

To be continued.

 

[ToBeLoved]

I believe the tree metaphorically represents the tree in the garden.

When one bows down to accept a gift from the tree, they are doing three things: they want that present with their name on it (lust of the eye). After opening the gift and seeing what they received, it makes them feel good (lust of the flesh, pride of life).

That is reading something into the Bible that is just not there.

We, God's Chlidren see (Lust of the eye) everyday, on billboards, magazines, people who dress immodestly and beautiful things like beautiful people, new cars or beautifully constructed buildings.

To think that there is so much lust in the symbolism of a Christmas tree is downplaying our real struggles to our eyes which are the things we see each day in society that we cannot help but see.

Overeating is considered lust for food. Laziness is lust of self to not do something.

I don't know where you got this from, but it is way off point IMHO.

 

[Strong in Him]

Continued

love - Greek: agape - to regard the "spiritual" welfare of another; specifically in giving them the word (instruction) of God;

love/agape is a "him" manifested in the person of Jesus Christ when he died for his people (Rom. 13:10; I John 4:9,10);

the Biblical definition of love/agape is found in II John 6 "this is love (agape) that we walk after his commandments"

Agape love is divine love.
God's love was demonstrated in the cross. He gave his perfect, spotless Son for us; Jesus died for sinners, for people who did not deserve and could never earn his love.

There is no word in the New Testament Greek for our word love. We have incorporated several Greek words into our English word "love". In 20th century America we have confused and misused two of these Greek words: agape and phileo. They are both translated "love" in the New Testament. The word phileo (love) means to be affectionate. Men corrupt the word agape (love) when they quote the Bible and imply that that agape is affection. John said, "God is love (agape)". Jesus said we are to love (agapeo - verb form of agape) our neighbor and our enemy (Mark 12:31; Matt. 5:44). He was not saying that we are to be affectionate (phileo) to them. He was saying that we are to "God" (agapeo) them, since God is love (agape). We are to give our neighbor and our enemy all that God is --his instruction. When we love (agape) our enemies we feed them the only food that is legal (prescribed) for sheep to consume (the law - instruction in God's word).

Yes that's true - Greek has 3, or 4, words for "love". We have one which includes all of them.
I don't see what this has to do with Christmas trees though.

We love (agape) others when we fellowship (eating at the Lord's "spiritual" table) with them,

I'd like to think so. But none of us can have God's love, agape love, unless God himself gives it to us. Plenty of people may take Holy Communion; sadly, this does not necessarily mean that they know, and love, God.

If a man does not believe God and read his Bible (understanding instruction himself), he cannot possibly love ( agapeo/agape) his neighbor or his enemy as Christ commanded us to do. To love (agape) does not mean to show affection (phileo) to them, but rather to give them the truth of God's word. "All the law (nomos - legal food - instruction) is fulfilled (finished or accomplished) in one word -- thou shalt love (agapeo - give God's instruction) thy neighbor (Gal. 5:14)." "Love (agape) worketh no ill (evil) to "his" (agape is the person, God) neighbor: therefore love (agape) is the fulfilling of the law (Rom. 13:10)." God is not affection (phileo). He is instruction in truth. "Thy word (instruction) is truth (John 17:17)." There will be a shortage of love (agape) at the end of time. Jesus said, "because iniquity (unlawful food) shall abound, the love (agape - instruction in the word) of many shall wax cold (Matt. 24:12; Amos 8:11,12).

Again, what has any of this to do with Christmas trees?

 

[Dkh587]

Lots of discussion but no scripture using the word "Christmas", unlike Sabbath, Passover, Feast of Weeks, Feast of Trumpets, Day of Atonement, or Feast of Tabernacles...

Christmas is not biblical... you can't even find the word in the scripture lol

You never see a man, angel, nor the Creator saying "celebrate the Messiah's birth on this day, every year". Yet do we see The Most High in Leviticus 23 giving instructions on the Days He wants us to honor and keep, every year..

Christmas = Saturnalia

 

[Strong in Him]

Lots of discussion but no scripture using the word "Christmas", unlike Sabbath, Passover, Feast of Weeks, Feast of Trumpets, Day of Atonement, or Feast of Tabernacles...

So?
Those are Jewish festivals; I doubt that even the disciples and early church kept them after Pentecost.

Christmas is not biblical... you can't even find the word in the scripture lol

Neither can you find the words "computer", "powerpoint", "vicar", "hymnbook", "children's ministry", and hundreds of others. Maybe these things aren't Biblical either? Maybe we shouldn't say, use, observe or do anything that was not observed, used or practised in 1st Century Israel?

You never see a man, angel, nor the Creator saying "celebrate the Messiah's birth on this day, every year".

Neither is it written anywhere that God has forbidden this.

Yet do we see The Most High in Leviticus 23 giving instructions on the Days He wants us to honor and keep, every year.

I am not Jewish nor of Jewish heritage; so I am not included in the "us" of your sentence.
The Messiah did not tell gentiles who believed in, and accepted, him that they had to keep all the Jewish feasts as well.

Christmas = Saturnalia

CHRIST-mas = the feast of the birth of Christ, Son of God and Saviour pf the world. If you don't want to keep this feast, remember him and worship the One who sent him - don't.

 

[Dkh587]

So?
Those are Jewish festivals; I doubt that even the disciples and early church kept them after Pentecost.



Neither can you find the words "computer", "powerpoint", "vicar", "hymnbook", "children's ministry", and hundreds of others. Maybe these things aren't Biblical either? Maybe we shouldn't say, use, observe or do anything that was not observed, used or practised in 1st Century Israel?



Neither is it written anywhere that God has forbidden this.



I am not Jewish nor of Jewish heritage; so I am not included in the "us" of your sentence.
The Messiah did not tell gentiles who believed in, and accepted, him that they had to keep all the Jewish feasts as well.



CHRIST-mas = the feast of the birth of Christ, Son of God and Saviour pf the world. If you don't want to keep this feast, remember him and worship the One who sent him - don't.

Still no scriptural evidence of christmas, anybody celebrating Christmas, or the commandment to celebrate it. It's a man-made tradition that's not biblical at all.

BTW, when did the Messiah instruct anybody to observe Christmas? You say he didn't instruct "Gentiles" to observe God's feasts, but I don't see where he instructed converted gentiles to celebrate Christmas. Can you provide some verses please? We just want evidence of a celebration called "Christmas" that was celebrated and observed in the SCRIPTURES. So far, nobody has provided any, because it's not biblical, and it's man-made.

 

[Strong in Him]

Still no scriptural evidence of christmas, anybody celebrating Christmas, or the commandment to celebrate it. It's a man-made tradition that's not biblical at all.

I said several posts back, and probably more than once, that there is no teaching, or command, in the Bible about celebrating Christmas, either that we should or that we shouldn't.

Having stated this I then asked why people are making a big thing about this not being in the Bible when dozens of things that we do/own are also not in the Bible. Why are you using a computer? It's not Scriptural.
So far, no one has answered this question. Yes, we know that Christmas is not in the Bible, as such, though Christ's birth certainly is. That doesn't mean that we can't celebrate it; unless you can produce the Scripture which says so.

It's a man-made tradition that's not biblical at all.

Christ's birth is Scriptural and was announced and marked by angels, shepherds and Magi. If you don't want to celebrate it; don't. But it is not wrong to do so.

Can you provide some verses please? We just want evidence of a celebration called "Christmas" that was celebrated and observed in the SCRIPTURES.

I've already answered this.

So far, nobody has provided any, because it's not biblical, and it's man-made.

So are you going to answer my point about other things we use/observe that aren't Scriptural or just keep repeating the same question?

There is no Scripture that forbids us from remembering Christ's birth and worshipping him.

 

[tatteredsoul]

Should Christians celebrate All Hallow's Eve?

There is no direct scripture that forbids it, but given the history and foundation of the day, is this appropriate for believers?

Now, let's extrapolate the same reasoning onto Christmas, which has a similarly unsavory history and foundation - unsavory being synonymous with categorically non-Hebrew, or non-Christian in origin.

Would God want us to celebrate "The Day of the Undefeatable Sun (god)?"

 

[Strong in Him]

Would God want us to celebrate "The Day of the Undefeatable Sun (god)?"

No, but that's not what we're doing.

Would God want us to ignore the birth of His Son and allow the world to believe that CHRIST mas is all, and only, about Father Christmas, cute reindeer and lots of material possessions? We have a great opportunity to witness to the birth of our Saviour - why are we arguing amongst ourselves about whether or not to do so?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Should Christians celebrate All Hallow's Eve?

There is no direct scripture that forbids it, but given the history and foundation of the day, is this appropriate for believers?

Now, let's extrapolate the same reasoning onto Christmas, which has a similarly unsavory history and foundation - unsavory being synonymous with categorically non-Hebrew, or non-Christian in origin.

Would God want us to celebrate "The Day of the Undefeatable Sun (god)?"

Correct, - it's like which tree did it grow on ? Not which tree is it hung on.
When a gardener has a perfect peach tree, growing wonderful peaches, why would he buy plastic peaches and hang them on the tree ? As long as good peaches are growing, he won't. But if there is no more good fruit, he may buy the plastic fruit and hang it on his peach tree for appearance of good fruit.

 

[Dkh587]

I said several posts back, and probably more than once, that there is no teaching, or command, in the Bible about celebrating Christmas, either that we should or that we shouldn't.

Having stated this I then asked why people are making a big thing about this not being in the Bible when dozens of things that we do/own are also not in the Bible. Why are you using a computer? It's not Scriptural.
So far, no one has answered this question. Yes, we know that Christmas is not in the Bible, as such, though Christ's birth certainly is. That doesn't mean that we can't celebrate it; unless you can produce the Scripture which says so.



Christ's birth is Scriptural and was announced and marked by angels, shepherds and Magi. If you don't want to celebrate it; don't. But it is not wrong to do so.



I've already answered this.



So are you going to answer my point about other things we use/observe that aren't Scriptural or just keep repeating the same question?

There is no Scripture that forbids us from remembering Christ's birth and worshipping him.

The Messiah's birth is 100% scriptural

The celebration/tradition of celebrating his birth on the Roman calendar date of December 25 is 0% scriptural

So?
Those are Jewish festivals; I doubt that even the disciples and early church kept them after Pentecost.



Neither can you find the words "computer", "powerpoint", "vicar", "hymnbook", "children's ministry", and hundreds of others. Maybe these things aren't Biblical either? Maybe we shouldn't say, use, observe or do anything that was not observed, used or practised in 1st Century Israel?



Neither is it written anywhere that God has forbidden this.



I am not Jewish nor of Jewish heritage; so I am not included in the "us" of your sentence.
The Messiah did not tell gentiles who believed in, and accepted, him that they had to keep all the Jewish feasts as well.



CHRIST-mas = the feast of the birth of Christ, Son of God and Saviour pf the world. If you don't want to keep this feast, remember him and worship the One who sent him - don't.

Were the Corinthians "Jewish"? Paul taught them to keep the Passover. He never told them to keep Christmas.

You can call Saturnalia "Christmas" all you want, and celebrate the birth of the Hebrew Messiah on the pagan day December 25(the 7th day of Saturnalia) all you want, but that doesn't mean you're celebrating a day/event that is honoring the Father & the Son, especially when you don't even keep the Feasts written about in Leviticus 23. Seems a bit backwards to me

The Disciples lived according to the Torah(law). Paul testified and made a vow to prove that he lived in obedience to the Torah(law) in Acts 21

I don't think I'm worshipping the Father if I am celebrating Christmas, as He has Feasts that he told Moses about in Leviticus 23. We see the Messiah Yahushua and his Disciples keeping these Feasts. Why wouldn't we? Paul taught the Corinthians to keep Passover! And Paul was eager to observe the feasts all throughout the book of Acts. Never a mention of Christmas though...

My main question is: how do we honor the Father and Son by celebrating Christmas, but at the same time not observing/keeping the Feasts in Leviticus 23? Aren't we ignoring what He said to do, and trying to honor Him with something He never said to do?

 

[ToBeLoved]

Lots of discussion but no scripture using the word "Christmas", unlike Sabbath, Passover, Feast of Weeks, Feast of Trumpets, Day of Atonement, or Feast of Tabernacles...

Christmas is not biblical... you can't even find the word in the scripture lol

You never see a man, angel, nor the Creator saying "celebrate the Messiah's birth on this day, every year". Yet do we see The Most High in Leviticus 23 giving instructions on the Days He wants us to honor and keep, every year..

Christmas = Saturnalia

And if we consider that the entire Bible was finished by 90 AD, then no one would even expect Christmas to be in the Bible.

And of course the Old Testament holy days are in the Bible because the Old Testament was written before the last New Testament book.

It is a stretch to ask for the word Christmas as it was never even a word when the cannon closed. Seems a bit silly to ask about a word that didn't even exist.

 

[ToBeLoved]

One more time . . .
This by far is the #1 most common argument I get from the defenders of Christmas and its Pagan roots. It also is the easiest to refute.

You are making a false equivalency argument.

Here is what I claim to be a false equivalency argument:

A: Birthdays celebration are pagan
B: use computers/guitars/hymn books/visual aids to worship Christ is secular (pagan).
C: Therefore, if we can't celebrate birthdays, we shouldn't use computers/guitars/hymn books/visual aids to worship Him.

I state that because A and B only have passing similarity, and that only A has a Christian holiday dedicated to it, the two are false equivalent.

First, half of your argument is that we should not celebrate the birth of Christ. Because we don't even know He was born on December 25th this is what we celebrate it as. So I think the whole argument of where December 25th came from is your argument. We can celebrate the birth of our Savior if we like. The Bible does not say we cannot, unless you know some scripture that I do not.

So instead of trying to make Christians out to be wrong using the word "Christmas" which is sneaky in itself because it didn't even exist and saying we conduct tree worship, the real question is should we celebrate Christ's birth.

Now a good argument could be made not to celebrate Passover, because Passover was a shadow of what was to come, but we HAVE the passover Lamb, the Lamb of God, so the shadow, being Passover being still celebrated is more of an insult to Jesus in that one celebrates the 'shadow' and not the Messiah.

 

[ToBeLoved]

I said several posts back, and probably more than once, that there is no teaching, or command, in the Bible about celebrating Christmas, either that we should or that we shouldn't.

Having stated this I then asked why people are making a big thing about this not being in the Bible when dozens of things that we do/own are also not in the Bible. Why are you using a computer? It's not Scriptural.
So far, no one has answered this question. Yes, we know that Christmas is not in the Bible, as such, though Christ's birth certainly is. That doesn't mean that we can't celebrate it; unless you can produce the Scripture which says so.



Christ's birth is Scriptural and was announced and marked by angels, shepherds and Magi. If you don't want to celebrate it; don't. But it is not wrong to do so.



I've already answered this.



So are you going to answer my point about other things we use/observe that aren't Scriptural or just keep repeating the same question?

There is no Scripture that forbids us from remembering Christ's birth and worshipping him.

If one is saying what society probably worships a tree or a computer or technology, probably computers.

Idoltry is anything that we give a high position to in our lives. Such a position that it rivals God in love in our hearts. I would definitely vote technology (computers, cell phones) over a tree and tree worship. lol

 

[Strong in Him]

This by far is the #1 most common argument I get regarding defending Christmas and its Pagan roots. It also is the easiest to refute.

To be honest, you shouldn't be refuting anything - you have said that your only reason for posting is to explain why you CAN'T do Christmas. You have done that.

You are making a false equivalency argument.

No I'm not; I'm asking a question. Which is, why do you require Christmas to be mentioned in the Bible in order to celebrate it?
That's my question - which has not been answered.

My opinion is that we don't. We don't need a command from God to celebrate Christmas/Easter/Palm Sunday - just as we don't need a command from God to use computers, musical instruments, prayerbooks or anything else. These latter things are aids to worship, while Christmas is the name given to the feast day on which we celebrate the birth of the Son of God. If you don't like aids to worship and don't need a special festival to remember Christ's birth; don't use them.
The Bible reveals God to us, his love, his salvation, his Son and his will for our lives. It is not there to dictate our every move.

Here is what I claim to be a false equivalency argument:

A: Birthdays celebration are pagan
B: use computers/guitars/hymn books/visual aids to worship Christ is secular (pagan).
C: Therefore, if we can't celebrate birthdays, we shouldn't use computers/guitars/hymn books/visual aids to worship Him.

Well this argument doesn't work, or even, I think, make sense.
1. Birthdays are not pagan.
2. using visual aids in worship is not secular. Jewish worship was full of visual aids; sacrifices, incense, the ark of the covenant, the holy of holies, the lamp of God etc etc. The prophets very often acted out their messages from God - e.g building a model of Jerusalem and then destroying it, to represent the warning that the city would be destroyed; walking around naked, burying a linen belt and so on. Hosea was even told to marry a prostitute to symbolise the relationship between God and Israel. And God used something visual to get Moses' attention - the burning bush.
Worshipping God with musical instruments is not secular; it's in the Psalms and they used them before the dedication of the temple.
3. C doesn't make sense because, unless you are a JW, there's no reason why we can't celebrate birthdays. But as your first two arguments are wrong, your conclusion is bound to be.

I state that because A and B only have passing similarity, and that only A has a Christian holiday dedicated to it, the two are false equivalent.

Again, I wasn't making an argument; I was asking a question. I was also pointing out that your argument doesn't hold in other areas.