Philosophy 201 and God.

[John Robie]

So I am taking a Philosophy class, which is very hard but the teacher is a Christian and the books are all written from a Christian perspective. We have 5 text books for the class. We just finished with one of the text books and in it the author, my teacher, made the statement about Laws of Philosophy being absolute. One such law is the Law of contradiction. Two thinks can not be in opposites. The author made the statement God can not exist and not exist at the same time, He then said God spoke of a camel passing through the eye of a needle and said all things are possible with God but He did not mean that. God could not pass a camel through the eye of a needle. He then goes on to say a person can not be in a room and outside the room at the same time, and this is the problem with Christian philosophers. God can be in two places at once. God can pass a camel through the eye of a needle, how I do not know but He could. If God chose He could exist and not at the same time. God is an all powerful God. That means there is no end to His power. To suggest there is limits on God's power, is to take away the all powerful part. So at best this teacher who says how much he respects the Bible has very limited faith in God, why? Because he like scientist rely on his own knowledge and understanding. This is not what God teaches. God teaches have faith in me as a child. How does a child look at their father? Like He is superman, he is the strongest smartest most successful man alive. No imagine if had that kind of faith with God. Why we could move mountains as God said. There is more wisdom in a child then most men walking the earth today.

My son was talking about Jesus the other day. he said Jesus is the strongest person alive. I said yes. He said there is nothing he can not do, wow. He can do anything, wow. He knows everything, wow. I said yes son. He said and He loves me. I said yes he does.

I don't think he's limiting God's power. He's saying that there are contradictions that cannot be both true at the same time. For instance, let's take a room. God can fill that room. God can empty that room. And He can do both in an instant. However, God cannot make that room empty and full at the same time. They are two completely different states of being.

I'm unable to listen to his lecture, and I don't know the name of his book. So I cannot speak to the rest of what he said. But I hope that explains the law of non-contradiction better.

 

[FredVB]

Yes, the two things that are being a contradiction are not both going to be true. God is never violating that either. And Yahweh God necessarily is, as the self-existence that God is. There is no option for God to not exist. There is only denial with atheists and to some extent agnostics saying there is no basis to say God does exist, and they ignore logical arguments showing such basis, with grasping at far-stretched thinking to explain any of it away.

 

[Bluelion]

and that shows where your faith is at. I take God's word that all things are possible with him, he did not say something but all things. a person could walk on water and sink in water at the same time seems a contradiction but if a person was walking on a platform of water that was going down into the water at the same time like an elevator they would be walking on water and sinking at the same time. You think in a 3 dimensional world and put God in that box. You have no idea what God can do. surly someone will say but God could not create a shelf of water to walk on while it sank, yeah and they said men can not walk on water. It's a lack of faith which is my point.

 

[John Robie]

and that shows where your faith is at. I take God's word that all things are possible with him, he did not say something but all things. a person could walk on water and sink in water at the same time seems a contradiction but if a person was walking on a platform of water that was going down into the water at the same time like an elevator they would be walking on water and sinking at the same time. You think in a 3 dimensional world and put God in that box. You have no idea what God can do. surly someone will say but God could not create a shelf of water to walk on while it sank, yeah and they said men can not walk on water. It's a lack of faith which is my point.

That wouldn't be a contradiction. That would be a matter of perspective. So that would fall into this category. I think what falls into this category is what I posted earlier in this thread.

And to be clear, I think there's a context issue on what Christ meant when He said with God, all things are possible. I don't think He was referring to things like making a water molecule both ice and steam at the same time.

 

[mikedsjr]

Taking God at His Word is much more than viewing each sentence uttered as though it can stand alone. It involves understanding and comparing Scripture with Scripture. No single verse stands alone especially in matters of doctrine and practice. That seems to be a real problem in this generation. People are taught snipits of Scriptures and doctrine as though verses stand alone and do not need to be compared with the teaching of the whole of the Scriptures. Folk's theology is founded on a few verses instead of the whole of the Scriptures and what God says about Himself. When we say that nothing is impossible with God we must understand that saying through the teaching of the whole of the Scriptures that tell us that God cannot change, He cannot deny Himself, He cannot be unrighteous, He cannot learn, He cannot be more or less than what He is and many other things that are impossible for God if He is to be truly God. If any of those things were possible for God then He is not much more than a weak human and cannot really be trusted or be worthy of worship.

When the passage says that all things are possible with God we don't need to run to extreme views but take the context of the passage to mean that it is only possible for God to save man. Man cannot save himself but it is possible for God to do so.

Any other doctrine being implied in the statement is going off the deep end and making Scripture say what it does not say.

Very true. It's those charismatic type, not the religious denom, who proof text, add lots of humor, focus on helping society through charitable type work, keep the gospel at a low profile(as if it's a known quantity) and paint pictures we want applied to our lives who have the biggest voices today. The top Christian authors today are not the good exegetes. That doesn't make for good experiences. That doesn't make for "Christianity" in the 21st Century.

I don't envy seminary students, because I'm not convinced Seminaries today have the gospel properly focused. With as many unofficial live mic poles done by groups like White Horse Inn to discover what people in Seminary know about Scripture, it is no wonder there are problems in Christianity. From liberal scholars teaching in seminaries to uneducated Seminary students desiring to be pastors......I just thank God for the pastors who make it out and still value Scripture in context.

 

[Bluelion]

That wouldn't be a contradiction. That would be a matter of perspective. So that would fall into this category. I think what falls into this category is what I posted earlier in this thread.

And to be clear, I think there's a context issue on what Christ meant when He said with God, all things are possible. I don't think He was referring to things like making a water molecule both ice and steam at the same time.

sorry but walking on water and sinking in water at the same time does appear to be contradictions, the fact I just explained how it is not, now you say its not. I did not take it out of context but lets put it in context if that makes you feel better.

Rich man comes up to Jesus and says I will follow you any where, Jesus says sell everything you own and follow me, the man walked away because he was very rich and had many things. so Jesus said it is easier that a camel pass through an eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter heaven. The disciples said who can be saved then, Jesus said with man it is impossible with God all things are possible.

Certainly sounds like he said all things are possible. Yeah i guess I am dumb Because I take an all powerful God would be able to do anything. SO what your saying is God is not all powerful. That there are some things beyond His power? do i understand you correctly?

 

[twin1954]

God cannot be and not be at the same time and in the same respect. It has nothing to do with His power it has to do with simple truth.

 

[Bluelion]

no answer to that question?

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

sorry but walking on water and sinking in water at the same time does appear to be contradictions, the fact I just explained how it is not, now you say its not. I did not take it out of context but lets put it in context if that makes you feel better.

Rich man comes up to Jesus and says I will follow you any where, Jesus says sell everything you own and follow me, the man walked away because he was very rich and had many things. so Jesus said it is easier that a camel pass through an eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter heaven. The disciples said who can be saved then, Jesus said with man it is impossible with God all things are possible.

Certainly sounds like he said all things are possible. Yeah i guess I am dumb Because I take an all powerful God would be able to do anything. SO what your saying is God is not all powerful. That there are some things beyond His power? do i understand you correctly?

Sorry, I am not going to get all bothered about whether or not the mere fact that God can't created a contradiction constitutes a limitation on God.

 

[MWood]

Goes back to the question...Can God create a rock too big for Him to pick up?

 

[Bluelion]

Sorry, I am not going to get all bothered about whether or not the mere fact that God can't created a contradiction constitutes a limitation on God.

then why post?

 

[Bluelion]

Goes back to the question...Can God create a rock too big for Him to pick up?

No it doesn't. its simple you can not say God is all powerful and then say oh but somethings are out of his power that is a contradiction. Seems quite hypocritical.

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

then why post?

In this case, to defend the right to believe in God.

 

[Bluelion]

In this case, to defend the right to believe in God.

Yeah that wasn't even a question or topic, please stay on topic, if you came to argue please go some where else.

 

[98cwitr]

Goes back to the question...Can God create a rock too big for Him to pick up?

That question is like trying to divide by zero...obviously the rock would be of infinite size, and as a 3D object cannot have any infinitely proportioned length width or height, then the question cannot be answered or determined.

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

Yeah that wasn't even a question or topic, please stay on topic, if you came to argue please go some where else.

I'm sorry, you asked a question, I answered it. If you think then that my answer is off topic, that's too bad. You opened that door.

 

[Bluelion]

I'm sorry, you asked a question, I answered it. If you think then that my answer is off topic, that's too bad. You opened that door.

dude just leave you came in here with a rude remark about how your not going to get all bothered with these discussion, I ask why even put that. The answer is because you have some issue you want to take out on this thread. If your not going to discuss then leave. I don't have time for your issues.

can a mod clean this thread up please.

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

dude just leave you came in here with a rude remark about how your not going to get all bothered with these discussion, I ask why even put that. The answer is because you have some issue you want to take out on this thread. If your not going to discuss then leave. I don't have time for your issues.

can a mod clean this thread up please.

Talking about the relative worth of the objections you are raising is on topic. They are not worth much.

 

[Bluelion]

Talking about the relative worth of the objections you are raising is on topic. They are not worth much.

How very Christ like of you.

In fact you have not made any arugement all you have done is ad hominem logical fallacy.

 

[John Robie]

sorry but walking on water and sinking in water at the same time does appear to be contradictions, the fact I just explained how it is not, now you say its not. I did not take it out of context but lets put it in context if that makes you feel better.

Rich man comes up to Jesus and says I will follow you any where, Jesus says sell everything you own and follow me, the man walked away because he was very rich and had many things. so Jesus said it is easier that a camel pass through an eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter heaven. The disciples said who can be saved then, Jesus said with man it is impossible with God all things are possible.

Certainly sounds like he said all things are possible. Yeah i guess I am dumb Because I take an all powerful God would be able to do anything. SO what your saying is God is not all powerful. That there are some things beyond His power? do i understand you correctly?

I've think I've been respectful to you, and I've tried having a reasonable discussion. And then this? I'm not sure what I did to warrant such a response. You criticized another member for not being Christ-like. All I did was disagree.

Anyway, God is all powerful. I've not said otherwise. But I've given you a good explanation of the law of non-contradiction (the empty room) which you never actually addressed. Instead, you've just repeated yourself and now you've mocked me. I'm not sure what to do with that.