Perfection Gospel

DeaconDean

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1 John 3:9-10
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

And below John makes clear, you are "born of GOD'" if you have received the "power" to become a child of GOD.

On just this verse alone, if we take it as you present us, then the only logical conclusion we must, must, arrive at is Peter and Paul were never saved.

Peter sinned in disobeying God in Acts 10.

Peter sinned in Gal. 2 in that he stood guilty of hypocrisy by Paul.

Paul sinned in that he disobeyed the Holy Spirit, not once, but twice as recorded in Acts 21.

Paul sinned in Acts 24 as he "reviled" a high priest.

Both men, Apostles, sons of God, sinned. And taken as face value, in light of 1 John 3:9-10 were not saved, not born again because they sinned which runs contrary to 1 Jn. 3:9-10. And yet, scripture, your scripture says a person " born of God doth not commit sin".

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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Goodbook

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We are saved but the true born again comes when we are resurrected.

The reasons why christians say they are born again (before actually being born again) is that we WILL be born again for sure. However the holy spirit is working within us to be perfected and so for many of us, besetting sins dother us so much anymore. But since we live in this world theres always tempations around, however, we can overcome them. It needs to be a daily walk though. We are not in heaven yet.

John was referring to how Jesus was perfect so we know Jesus was born of God, he had no sin. he loved his brothers. So we are to be like him. For the spirit of God to manifest itself in us, we are to show love. Children of the devil cannot show love.
 
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DeaconDean

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We are saved but the true born again comes when we are resurrected.

The reasons why christians say they are born again (before actually being born again) is that we WILL be born again for sure. However the holy spirit is working within us to be perfected and so for many of us, besetting sins dother us so much anymore. But since we live in this world theres always tempations around, however, we can overcome them. It needs to be a daily walk though. We are not in heaven yet.

John was referring to how Jesus was perfect so we know Jesus was born of God, he had no sin. he loved his brothers. So we are to be like him. For the spirit of God to manifest itself in us, we are to show love. Children of the devil cannot show love.

Read the entire chapter of 1 John 3 not just that verse.

I have.

Many times in fact.

However, wasn't it you who said:

I typed these below scriptures to show you through the word of GOD that you can live free of sin by the power of the Holy Ghost .

You can, however, please give me one person (other than Jesus) who has ever done so.

Not even the Apostles could do that!

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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DeaconDean

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The Presbyterian Theologian and professor at Princeton, when it was still a school of theology, B. B. Warfield wrote a whole volume on it. You can read a review of it here:
http://heidelblog.net/2014/11/warfield-on-the-two-sources-of-perfectionism/

BTW, he taught against it.

Good read, but I'll go one step further.

B.B. Warfield wrote "Entire Sanctification", here are some excerpts:

"Let us observe next that Paul does not speak of this perfecting of the entire man as if it were a mere ideal, unattainable, and to be looked up to only as the for ever beckoning standard hanging hopelessly above us. He treats it as distinctly attainable. He seriously prays God to grant it to his readers; and that as the end of his exhortation to them to study moral perfection as the aim of their endeavours.

He does not, indeed, represent it as attainable by and through human effort alone, as if man in his own strength could reach and touch this his true ultimate goal of endeavour. Rather he emphatically represents it as the gift of God alone. After exhorting men to their best endeavours, he turns suddenly from man to God and besieges Him with prayer. Strive, he says, strive always, do this thing and do that—and so work out this, your ethical salvation. "But may God Himself— the God of peace Himself"—the stress is on the "Himself." It is in God, in God alone, the God of peace alone, that hope can be placed for such high attainments.

And now, let us observe, thirdly, the period to which the Apostle assigns the accomplishment of this great hope. It is at once evident that he is not dealing with this perfection as a thing already in the possession of his readers. It is not a matter of congratulation to them—as some Christian graces were, for the presence of which in their hearts he thanks God,—but a matter of prayer to God for them. It is a thing not yet in possession but in petition. It is yet to come to them. He does not permit us to suppose, then, that the Thessalonians had already attained—or should already have attained—it. He thanks God, indeed, for their rescue from the state in which they were by nature. He thanks God for their great attainments in Christian living. But he does not suggest they had already reached the goal. On the contrary, a great part of the letter is taken up with exhortation to Christian duties not yet overtaken, graces of Christian living still to be cultivated. His readers are treated distinctly and emphatically as viatores, not yet as comprehensores. Not in and of them, but in and of God, is the perfection which he prays for. What we see is not hoped for, what we pray for is not already attained. Moreover the very pledge he gives of the attainment of this perfection bears in it an implication that it is yet a matter of hope, not of possession. He pledges the faithfulness of God, the Caller. Accordingly, the perfection longed for and promised is not given in the call itself; it is not the invariable possession of the Christian soul. He that is called looks yet for it; it is sought still; and at the hands of the Caller whose faithfulness assures the performance. The performance, therefore, still lags.

It is clear, therefore, that Paul, though promising this perfection as the certain heritage of every Christian man, presents it as a matter of hope, not yet seen; not as a matter of experience, already enjoyed. That it belongs to us as Christians we can be assured only by the faithfulness of God, the Performer as well as the Caller. Can we learn from Paul when we can hope for it? Assuredly, he has not left us in ignorance here. He openly declares, indeed, the term of our imperfection—the point of entrance into our perfection. "May the God of peace," he prays, "sanctify you wholly and may there be preserved blamelessly perfect your spirit and soul and body, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ" You see it is on the second advent of Christ—and that is the end of the world, and the judgment day—that the Apostle has his eyes set. There is the point of time to which he refers the completeness of our perfecting.

And if you will stop and consider a moment, you will perceive that it must be so, for the entire perfecting, at least, of which the Apostle speaks. For you will bear in mind that the perfecting includes the perfecting of the body also. It is the perfecting of the whole man that he prays for, and this expressly includes the body as well as the soul and spirit. Now the perfected body is given to man only at the resurrection, at the last day, which is the day of the second coming of Christ. Until then the body is mouldering in the grave. Whether spiritual perfection may be attained before then, he does not in this passage say. But the analogy of the body will apparently go so far as this, at all events—it raises a suspicion that the perfecting of the soul and spirit also will be gradual, the result of a process, and will be completed only in a crisis, a cataclysmic moment, when the Spirit of God produces in them the fitness to live with God. This suspicion is entirely borne out by Paul's dabbing with the whole matter of sanctification in this context, and in this whole epistle: as a matter of effort, long-continued and strenuous, building up slowly the structure to the end. There is no promise of its completion in this life; there is no hint that it may be completed in this life. There is only everywhere strong exhortations to ceaseless effort; and strong encouragements by promises of its completion in the end—against "that day." "That day" of judgment, that is, when God shall take account of all men and of all that is in man.

What is thus fairly implied here is openly taught elsewhere. Men here are not comprehensores but viatores; we are fighting the good fight; we are running the race. The prize is yonder. And not until the body of this death is laid aside shall the soul be fitted to enter naked into the presence of its Lord, there expecting until the body shall be restored to it—no longer a body of death but of glory. Meanwhile the gradual process of sanctification goes on in soul and body —until the crisis comes when the "Spiritus Creator" shall powerfully intervene with the final acts of renewal.

Source:https://www.monergism.com/entire-sanctification-1-thessalonians-523-24

Nuff said.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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NewCreation17

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Can you explain what John meant when he said "for his seed remainth in him?"

1 Peter 1:23

You must keep the Word of GOD hidden in your heart. It is possible to grow cold and have the seed (the Word of GOD) taken from your heart.

1 Corinthians 15:1-4
Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
ALSO
Luke 8:11-15 also shows that the seed (the word of GOD) can be taken from the believer.
 
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shakewell

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Hello everyone, has anyone heard of this gospel? From my understanding it's the teaching that true Christians are free from the power of all sin and that there are no Christians that sin every day. Is anyone familiar with this and are there any baptist who practice this gospel?

I think it depends on how they define the "Christian" or the "self". If by "self" they mean the “new creature” (Gal. 6:15, 2 Cor. 5:17) / the “inward man” (Rom. 7:22, 2 Cor. 4:16) / the “inner man” (Eph. 3:16) / the “new man” (Eph. 45:24, Col. 3:10) / the “hidden man of the heart” (1 Pet. 3:4), etc., then I would say they never sin ever during this life. But if by "self" they mean the new creature + the unregenerate flesh, then I'm sure they sin countless times a day; if only sins of the mind (evil imaginations, prideful thinking, etc.)
 
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twin1954

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Can you explain what John meant when he said "for his seed remainth in him?"
What it means is that when we are born of God we become a people of two natures. We are a new creation not a reformation of the old nature. The old nature still exists in us as Paul clearly speaks of in Rom. 7.

Paul tells us to put on the new man which after God is created in true righteousness and holiness in Eph. 4:24. He speaks in Gal. 5:16-17 that we fight a battle against ourselves and that we are to walk in the Spirit. Walking in the Spirit is simply fighting against the old nature that still exists in us and is still nothing but sin. The old nature seeks dominion but Paul again tells us in Rom. 6:14 that the old nature, sin, shall not have dominion over us.

Contrary to the common belief sanctification isn't a process by which the old man is reformed and becomes more holy but the creation of a new man in us by the power of God that raised Jesus from the dead and us in Him. We are raised from the dead in the new birth and made a new creation.

Paul once more tells us in Gal. 2:20-21 that we are crucified with Christ yet we live but it is Christ that lives in us and the life that we now live we live by the faith of the Son of God.

So the " seed" that remains in us is the seed of Christ in us the hope of glory, the new creation that is born of God not of man. The sin we do is the old nature, the flesh, but the new creation is the seed of Christ that cannot sin because it has been born of God.

See my earlier post on sanctification.
 
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Kersh

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On just this verse alone, if we take it as you present us, then the only logical conclusion we must, must, arrive at is Peter and Paul were never saved.

Peter sinned in disobeying God in Acts 10.

Peter sinned in Gal. 2 in that he stood guilty of hypocrisy by Paul.

Paul sinned in that he disobeyed the Holy Spirit, not once, but twice as recorded in Acts 21.

Paul sinned in Acts 24 as he "reviled" a high priest.

Both men, Apostles, sons of God, sinned. And taken as face value, in light of 1 John 3:9-10 were not saved, not born again because they sinned which runs contrary to 1 Jn. 3:9-10. And yet, scripture, your scripture says a person " born of God doth not commit sin".

God Bless

Till all are one.

The Wesleyan view of perfection does not hold perfection as a requirement for salvation, but as a fruit of it. Likewise, the Wesleyan view seems to be that perfection may or may not be obtained within the believer's earthly lifetime. Additionally, Christian perfection, as used by Wesley, is somewhat of a misnomer. Wesley believed that we could eventually reach a point at which we do not willfully sin, but that we would still be prone to "mistake" (which Wesley seems to have understood as including those "sins" that just kind of slip out, such as the unkind word that comes out in a moment of anger). I say all this to point out that the "perfection gospel" as I understand it is (a) quite a bit more limited than the name implies and (b) quite consistent with the writings of the Apostle John. And, whether you agree with it or not, it is not a club with which to beat other believers over the head with.
 
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Goodbook

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I have.

Many times in fact.

However, wasn't it you who said:



You can, however, please give me one person (other than Jesus) who has ever done so.

Not even the Apostles could do that!

God Bless

Till all are one.
No that wasnt me, someone else posted that.
 
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MWood

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What it means is that when we are born of God we become a people of two natures. We are a new creation not a reformation of the old nature. The old nature still exists in us as Paul clearly speaks of in Rom. 7.

Paul tells us to put on the new man which after God is created in true righteousness and holiness in Eph. 4:24. He speaks in Gal. 5:16-17 that we fight a battle against ourselves and that we are to walk in the Spirit. Walking in the Spirit is simply fighting against the old nature that still exists in us and is still nothing but sin. The old nature seeks dominion but Paul again tells us in Rom. 6:14 that the old nature, sin, shall not have dominion over us.

Contrary to the common belief sanctification isn't a process by which the old man is reformed and becomes more holy but the creation of a new man in us by the power of God that raised Jesus from the dead and us in Him. We are raised from the dead in the new birth and made a new creation.

Paul once more tells us in Gal. 2:20-21 that we are crucified with Christ yet we live but it is Christ that lives in us and the life that we now live we live by the faith of the Son of God.

So the " seed" that remains in us is the seed of Christ in us the hope of glory, the new creation that is born of God not of man. The sin we do is the old nature, the flesh, but the new creation is the seed of Christ that cannot sin because it has been born of God.

See my earlier post on sanctification.
Thanks twin.
 
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DeaconDean

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The Wesleyan view of perfection does not hold perfection as a requirement for salvation, but as a fruit of it. Likewise, the Wesleyan view seems to be that perfection may or may not be obtained within the believer's earthly lifetime. Additionally, Christian perfection, as used by Wesley, is somewhat of a misnomer. Wesley believed that we could eventually reach a point at which we do not willfully sin, but that we would still be prone to "mistake" (which Wesley seems to have understood as including those "sins" that just kind of slip out, such as the unkind word that comes out in a moment of anger). I say all this to point out that the "perfection gospel" as I understand it is (a) quite a bit more limited than the name implies and (b) quite consistent with the writings of the Apostle John. And, whether you agree with it or not, it is not a club with which to beat other believers over the head with.

I never it was.

In fact, I've been the lone voice against it.

How many times have I been hit by members using 1 Jn. 3:9-10 saying that "Christians" don't sin?

Has the point of salvation so eradicated sin in the lives of Christians that they cannot sin?

I simply meant that "moving on to perfection", "sinless perfection" in this lifetime is impossible.

Not even the Apostles could do it.

Paul wrote a whole chapter on this shortly before he died. (cf. Rom. 7)

No that wasnt me, someone else posted that.

Apologies.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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Goodbook

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There is a book I found in the church library on the topic from all different view points.

If you can find it I suggest you check it out.

Its called 'free and fulfilled' victorious living in the 21st century.
Compiled by Robertson McQuilken.

It mentions wesleyan holiness doctrine, the Keswick conventions, charismatic, calvinist theological perspectives etc. it gives the history of it in 22 essays. Its published under the auspices of Columbia International University.

I dont know if that is baptist or not but reading it may help you form an idea of what its all about.
 
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AGTG

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The apostle John plainly stated that if anyone thought they were without sin they were deceived.

That being said, Christians can walk in a great measure of victory by dedicating themselves to the simple disciplines of the faith (daily prayer, daily study of the word, regular fellowship, and walking out their ministry calling).

These simple disciplines were all described by Jesus to be like food. Why? Because if we feed ourselves spiritually, we will be strong spiritually.

Paul said, "If we walk after the Spirit, we will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh."

Paul was reinforcing what Jesus taught about feeding ourselves with good spiritual food so the old man will be weak and our new man will be strong.
 
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AGTG

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I typed these below scriptures to show you through the word of GOD that you can live free of sin by the power of the Holy Ghost . What you choose to do with the truth is something i can not control. Let every man work out his own soul salvation with fear and trembling.

Now look below, the apostle John wrote both of these passages.
It is written that "whosoever is born of GOD doth not commit sin;" (born of GOD = born again in the spirit, having received the Holy Ghost.)

That's not a good rendering of the original text. The original text says "If anyone makes a practice of sinning..."

That means someone who has made habits and practices of doing things that are clearly outside the boundaries of godly conduct.

Paul names some of these kinds of sins in Galatians and elsewhere.

For example, Paul says "revilers" will not inherit the Kingdom of God. That does not mean if you got mad once and flew off the handle and yelled at someone you are now completely disqualified from the faith.

It means people who justify the habitual practice of telling people off and refusing God's will in being drawn from such behaviors are essentially denying the basic premise of obedience to Christ's guidance by the Holy Spirit.
 
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Dan61861

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When I am under the Law, I am a sinner. When I am under Grace, I am not a sinner. Blessed is the man whom the Lord does not impute sin. When you are under Christ, sin is not imputed on you. His Blood covers us, it is His righteousness that is upon us. I cling to Christ for my salvation, not my flesh. Our flesh could never please God. Like Twin has said, we have two natures. The Old nature is already dead, our New Nature is alive in Christ.

In Christ
Daniel
 
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NewCreation17

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Psalm 12:6-7
6 The words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.
7 Thou shalt keep them, O Lord, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.

There is no error in the Word of GOD. The Almighty GOD has made sure His word endures and is preserved with no error. I was filled with the Holy Spirit reading a KJV bible which the Lord led me to.

For your other writings I say this.

Sin is sin.... If a person reviles, and does not repent he has become a reviler. If a person fornicates and does not repent he has become a fornicator. GOD is the judge if a person has truly repented, and GOD knows the heart and all things.
Luke 13:1-3

So if you as you stated below "go off the handle" and commit a sin (knowing you have sinned), if you do not repent ye will be in danger of the judgement.







That's not a good rendering of the original text. The original text says "If anyone makes a practice of sinning..."

That means someone who has made habits and practices of doing things that are clearly outside the boundaries of godly conduct.

Paul names some of these kinds of sins in Galatians and elsewhere.

For example, Paul says "revilers" will not inherit the Kingdom of God. That does not mean if you got mad once and flew off the handle and yelled at someone you are now completely disqualified from the faith.

It means people who justify the habitual practice of telling people off and refusing God's will in being drawn from such behaviors are essentially denying the basic premise of obedience to Christ's guidance by the Holy Spirit.
 
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DeaconDean

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"7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin." -Rom. 7:7-25 (KJV)

Has the Christ event in anybodies lives so eradicated sin that they don't sin anymore?

I do know this, James said:

"5 Even so the tongue is a little member, and boasteth great things. Behold, how great a matter a little fire kindleth!

6 And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell.

7 For every kind of beasts, and of birds, and of serpents, and of things in the sea, is tamed, and hath been tamed of mankind:

8 But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison." -Jas. 3:5-8 (KJV)

You may be able to control some sins in your life.

But the tongue, no one can tame, or bridle.

And it will cause to slip, trip, fall.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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Goodbook

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I do think people can split hairs on this one.
Everyone is at different stages on their journey and I think as you keep walking in Christ you are less likely to go in the path of temptation, as you'd be following Jesus and walking AWAY from it. Or you'd know..if a stumbling block is placed in front of you, to avoid it or deal with it or even clear a path where there are no stumbling blocks.
 
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