Perfection Gospel

[twin1954]

Is the doctrine of perfection meaning that once a christian becomes saved he instantly walks perfectly like Jesus and sanctification is admitting that we are still human but the spirit refines us everyday to look more like christ?

Here is my post on sanctification. It may help you understand what it actually means and what it actually is.

"Sanctification isn't a process by which we become more and more holy it is an act of God in and for the believer and is a new creation that God makes us when He gives us life and faith in Christ.

The words sanctify, sanctified and sanctification have three meanings and uses in the Scriptures: to be set apart for God as holy for His use, which is the primary meaning of the word; to be declared holy by God for His use and to be made holy by God for His use.

We are set apart by God as His holy people in eternal electing love. An example is the vessels in the Tabernacle being common in their normal use but were set apart by God as holy for His use. The nature of the vessels didn't change and they didn't become something that they were not already.

The second is to be declared holy by God as the vessels were again. They still didn't change in their nature or essential elements but were simply declared to be separate for God for His use. We are declared holy by God in the justifying righteousness of Christ being imputed to us.

The third is to be actually made holy by God. In this the act of God on the chosen vessel actually changes its nature. We are changed and actually made holy by God in the new birth in which He raises us from the dead and gives us life and faith in Christ. He makes us a new creation not a reformation of the old man. The old man, called the flesh, is still the same as it always was. It doesn't need to be taken to the hospital of religion to be cured it must be taken to the cross to be crucified. Gal. 2:20.
The Scriptures that show this are: 2Cor. 5:17, Eph. 4:24, 1John 3:9
The word is never used in the Scriptures as a process in which we co-operate with God by washing our selves or turning from sin. That is what repentance and loving obedience is. We walk by faith not by sight and hate even the garment spotted by the flesh.

Don't confuse sanctification, which is an act of God alone in us and for us, with repentance and obedience. They are not the same thing. 1Cor. 1:30"

 

[Goodbook]

Is the doctrine of perfection meaning that once a christian becomes saved he instantly walks perfectly like Jesus and sanctification is admitting that we are still human but the spirit refines us everyday to look more like christ?

I think you got sanctification in a nutshell but I dont know about what 'perfection gospel' really teaches what you described assuredly doesnt happen with all the christians I know!!

 

[Kersh]

If what you're talking about is Wesley's notion of Christian perfection, this is really just a modestly different view of sanctification than that held by Baptists. Wesley's view was that Chrisitans could become perfectly sanctified during their earthly life and that we should live in expectation that God will accomplish that in each of us. My understanding of the Baptist view is that we have to wait until heaven to become perfectly sanctified.

 

[Goodbook]

um no that isn't quite the baptist view that we have to 'wait until heaven' and even so its an active waiting on the Lord. I would say it is similar to wesleys view but I haven't heard it taught as 'perfection' althought the bible says 'be ye therefore perfect, even as your heavenly Father is perfect'.

basically what the context of that verse is is that we ought to love our enemies. Its not really talking bout being clean or holy or set apart, which is what sanctification implies.

its about Perfect love which casts out fear. Perfect love is what God has for mankind in that he sees all of us as his creation, and thus loves us despite the things we do as humans. Because originally his creation WAS perfect.

 

[Goodbook]

See Matthew chapter 5 starting from verse 43 and ends in 48 where we are exhorted to be perfect.

 

[Kersh]

um no that isn't quite the baptist view that we have to 'wait until heaven' and even so its an active waiting on the Lord. I would say it is similar to wesleys view but I haven't heard it taught as 'perfection' althought the bible says 'be ye therefore perfect, even as your heavenly Father is perfect'.

basically what the context of that verse is is that we ought to love our enemies. Its not really talking bout being clean or holy or set apart, which is what sanctification implies.

its about Perfect love which casts out fear. Perfect love is what God has for mankind in that he sees all of us as his creation, and thus loves us despite the things we do as humans. Because originally his creation WAS perfect.

Do Baptists believe that we can be made perfect while still in this life? If not, AFAIK, that is really the main distinction between Wesley's Christian Perfection and what Baptists would call sanctification.

 

[Goodbook]

Uh..depends what you mean by 'made perfect' I think baptists recognise we all have sinned and fall short of His glory ...and after we are saved and born again, we are really only completely born again in the literal sense in the resurrection. We can be sanctified but thats a daily thing and the more we walk with the Lord the more he washes and cleanses us.

I think it does depend on your walk which is different for each person but I never get the sense that baptists think they are holier than than God.
The holy spirit is always active in convicting us when we sin so...its not like a one time thing and then youve become so holy that there arent any struggles anymore. There will always be things that crop up I think.
But it definetly is possible to have a change of heart and love people after weve made the choice to forgive them just as God has forgiven us. So in that sense yes perfection is possible in this life.

 

[Kersh]

Uh..depends what you mean by 'made perfect' I think baptists recognise we all have sinned and fall short of His glory ...and after we are saved and born again, we are really only completely born again in the literal sense in the resurrection. We can be sanctified but thats a daily thing and the more we walk with the Lord the more he washes and cleanses us.

I think it does depend on your walk which is different for each person but I never get the sense that baptists think they are holier than than God.
The holy spirit is always active in convicting us when we sin so...its not like a one time thing and then youve become so holy that there arent any struggles anymore. There will always be things that crop up I think.
But it definetly is possible to have a change of heart and love people after weve made the choice to forgive them just as God has forgiven us. So in that sense yes perfection is possible in this life.

If I understand Wesley properly, I think his view was that Chrisitans can reach a point, in this life, in which we no longer continue to sin, in which the actions that seem to naturally flow out of us are always those which are most glorifying to God.

 

[Goodbook]

Hmm did he ever reach it?
I guess its possible...but maybe he over emphaised that point. I doesnt seem to me that methodists are more perfect than other types of christians. But then I dont personally know that many.

The methodist churches in my area speak in other languages I dont understand. So ive never been with the methodists as a denom. But they actually do have a profound influence on spreading the gospel in the early days of nz. Because the anglicans wouldnt do it. They only stuck to their own class.

Wasnt the salvation army a breakaway from methodism? So they were reaching people the methodists didnt reach or was it from methodism that they realised we must go to the poor, that we must love others as christ commanded us to and not just our own family circle.

Baptists reach people across cultures which is why overseas missions is quite big in the baptist church. We dont just love people who look like us...we go where God directs us to go in places where they havent heard the gospel.

 

[Kersh]

Hmm did he ever reach it?

I don't know.

I guess its possible...but maybe he over emphaised that point. I doesnt seem to me that methodists are more perfect than other types of christians. But then I dont personally know that many.

The methodist churches in my area speak in other languages I dont understand. So ive never been with the methodists as a denom. But they actually do have a profound influence on spreading the gospel in the early days of nz. Because the anglicans wouldnt do it. They only stuck to their own class.

Wasnt the salvation army a breakaway from methodism? So they were reaching people the methodists didnt reach or was it from methodism that they realised we must go to the poor, that we must love others as christ commanded us to and not just our own family circle.

Baptists reach people across cultures which is why overseas missions is quite big in the baptist church. We dont just love people who look like us...we go where God directs us to go in places where they havent heard the gospel.

From what I understand, the Methodist church, for the most part, does not emphasize perfection or holiness any more. That is typically seen more in the Wesleyan and Nazarene churches, as well as some Pentecostal denominations.

Honestly, having grown up Methodist, I don't quite get your criticism of the Methodist church. I have never gotten the impression that Methodists have evern been a "stick to your own" kind of denomination. The Methodism that I grew up knowing was quite inclusive, very active in overseas missions (going so far as to create written languages in order to provide Bible translations for people whose language had no written code), and very concerned about the poor. My biggest complaint about the Methodist church has been more about the politics (pastors being bounced from church to church, squabbling between the "liberal" wing and the "conservative" wing, etc.) and a general apathy towards issues of morality (which, to me, is ironic, given Wesley's teachings on perfectionism).

 

[OzSpen]

Hmm did he ever reach it?
I guess its possible...but maybe he over emphaised that point. I doesnt seem to me that methodists are more perfect than other types of christians. But then I dont personally know that many.

The methodist churches in my area speak in other languages I dont understand. So ive never been with the methodists as a denom. But they actually do have a profound influence on spreading the gospel in the early days of nz. Because the anglicans wouldnt do it. They only stuck to their own class.

Wasnt the salvation army a breakaway from methodism? So they were reaching people the methodists didnt reach or was it from methodism that they realised we must go to the poor, that we must love others as christ commanded us to and not just our own family circle.

Baptists reach people across cultures which is why overseas missions is quite big in the baptist church. We dont just love people who look like us...we go where God directs us to go in places where they havent heard the gospel.

What's the problem with being sanctified through and through? I know many Baptists who believe that, but don't label it as entire sanctification.

 

[twin1954]

Hmm did he ever reach it?

Not according to him in his writings. He struggled with his own faith all his life according to his writings and rarely had assurance. I believe, of course, that he was a heretic and not a true believer based on the fact that he didn't believe in the imputed righteousness of Christ, among other things, but it isn't up to me to judge his soul.

 

[Emmy]

Dear DoubtfulSalvation. In Matthew 22: 35-40: Jesus tells us: " The first and great Commandment is: Love God with all thy heart, with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. The second is like it: love thy neighbour as thyself."
In verse 40 we read: "On these two Commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets." God is Love, and God wants loving sons and daughters. In Matthew 7-10: " Ask and you shall receive," we ask for Love and Joy, then thank God and share all love and joy with our neighbour. (neighbour is all we know and all we meet, friends and not friends)
We keep asking and receiving, then thank God and share all love and joy with our neighbour.
The Bible tells us: " Repent and be Born Again," we change our selfish wishes and wants to loving and caring, and be kind and always friendly. God sees our loving efforts, and God will Bless us. We might stumble and forget at times,
but then we ask God to forgive us, and carry on loving and caring. The Holy Spirit will help and guide us, and
Jesus our Saviour will lead us all the way: JESUS IS THE WAY.
A Christian`s weapon is love and compassion, love will never let us down or make us sad. Love is very catching,
and love never grows tired or weary. In Galatians 6: 7-8: we read: " God will not be mocked, whatever we sow, we will always reap. That is the way God teaches us, always with Love and Compassion.
I say this with love, DoubtfulSalvation. Greetings from Emmy, your sister in Christ.

 

[Goodbook]

It wasnt a criticism just an observation. Methodists are under the radar most of the time which can be a good thing as thats a humble way to live faith, I do find that baptists can blow their own trumpet a bit.

 

[Extraneous]

Dear DoubtfulSalvation. In Matthew 22: 35-40: Jesus tells us: " The first and great Commandment is: Love God with all thy heart, with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. The second is like it: love thy neighbour as thyself."
In verse 40 we read: "On these two Commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets." God is Love, and God wants loving sons and daughters. In Matthew 7-10: " Ask and you shall receive," we ask for Love and Joy, then thank God and share all love and joy with our neighbour. (neighbour is all we know and all we meet, friends and not friends)
We keep asking and receiving, then thank God and share all love and joy with our neighbour.
The Bible tells us: " Repent and be Born Again," we change our selfish wishes and wants to loving and caring, and be kind and always friendly. God sees our loving efforts, and God will Bless us. We might stumble and forget at times,
but then we ask God to forgive us, and carry on loving and caring. The Holy Spirit will help and guide us, and
Jesus our Saviour will lead us all the way: JESUS IS THE WAY.
A Christian`s weapon is love and compassion, love will never let us down or make us sad. Love is very catching,
and love never grows tired or weary. In Galatians 6: 7-8: we read: " God will not be mocked, whatever we sow, we will always reap. That is the way God teaches us, always with Love and Compassion.
I say this with love, DoubtfulSalvation. Greetings from Emmy, your sister in Christ.

Out of your almost 10,000 messages, i wonder how many times you have reiterated that message.

Thanks, keep up the good work sister.

 

[Goodbook]

Yes, perfect love casts out fear.

When the bible talks about being perfect, its talking about love. We are made perfect in love.

 

[DeaconDean]

See Matthew chapter 5 starting from verse 43 and ends in 48 where we are exhorted to be perfect.

Yes we are exhorted to be perfect but, why "put a yoke upon the neck of us, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?" -Acts 15:10 (KJV)

There was one and only one person that I know of who lived perfect and He was put to death on a cross for you and I.

Paul was not perfect in his lifetime. He sinned even after be "saved". See Acts 21 and 26.

Peter sinned several times after being saved.

Yes, we should not sin willfully, but how many of us slip and fail?

We will never achieve "perfection" in this lifetime.

According to 1 John 3:2, "but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him;".

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[Goodbook]

Jesus is the perfect one, the only one I know without sin.
The thing is, he had the advantage of being born without sin and keeping the law perfectly.

Today, if we tried to keep the law the israelites had it would be nigh impossible.
But, if we are born again we can follow Jesus two commandments as best we can as they are not grievous. Jesus recognised that if our brothers sin against us we are to forgive.

This is perhaps the hardest thing to do when someone has done wrong against us but the more we do it the easier it becomes.

If we do the little things Jesus can take care of our greater burdens as he died taking on the sins of the whole world. What one of us can say we willing to die for someone elses sins? When we sin so much ourselves. That is why..many times Gods grace is sufficent for us.

It is grace that empowers us to love others, even our enemies.

 

[NewCreation17]

I typed these below scriptures to show you through the word of GOD that you can live free of sin by the power of the Holy Ghost . What you choose to do with the truth is something i can not control. Let every man work out his own soul salvation with fear and trembling.

Now look below, the apostle John wrote both of these passages.
It is written that "whosoever is born of GOD doth not commit sin;" (born of GOD = born again in the spirit, having received the Holy Ghost.)
John 3:5-6
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

1 John 3:9-10
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

And below John makes clear, you are "born of GOD'" if you have received the "power" to become a child of GOD.

John 1:12-13
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

What power is John talking about? The Holy Spirit Jesus promised to those who believe on Him

Acts 1:8
8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you:

So now you know that if you have the Holy Spirit of Jesus Christ you are a child of GOD and born again. Now the Holy Spirit is able to put to death the deeds of the flesh.

Romans 8:13-14
13For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

This is why John tells us that
1 John 3:9-10
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Because those that are born of GOD have the power to not sin anymore. They have the Holy Spirit to mortify the deeds of the flesh. Before the Holy Spirit comes in you have no power over the darkness in you. You can not break free from the darkness and walk in the light without the Holy Spirit.

Many people have heaped to themselves preachers with "itching ears" who want to truth to be

2 Timothy 4:3
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

After their own lusts.....they look for doctrine or teachers that teach them it's ok if you continue to sin you will still be saved. But if you continue to sin and live after the flesh you SHALL DIE.

But GOD says you must put to death the deeds of the flesh (your sins)

Romans 6:6
And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

Galatians 5:16
This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh

Romans 8:13-14
13For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. 14For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God

Finally, please never forget

1 John 2:1
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:




I love you all, and I speak this of my own words, the devil and the flesh sometimes makes us feel like living holy is so tedious and draining. But that is just the flesh lusting after what it has already tasted (name the sin). But when you grow in the Spirit of GOD and walk in the Spirit and are led by the Spirit, the lusts and pulls of the flesh grow very small and the joy,peace,love,connection with GOD, miracles, signs, wonders are all present and so wonderful, and it is better than anything this fallen world can offer. We are working for a crown, and an eternal rest, away from this flesh which lusteth against the Spirit. Press towards the mark of the prize of the high calling of GOD in Christ Jesus and trust in the one who is able to keep us from falling and present us faultless before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy. Amen glory be to GOD in the name of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ​

 

[MWood]

I typed these below scriptures to show you through the word of GOD that you can live free of sin by the power of the Holy Ghost . What you choose to do with the truth is something i can not control. Let every man work out his own soul salvation with fear and trembling.

Now look below, the apostle John wrote both of these passages.
It is written that "whosoever is born of GOD doth not commit sin;" (born of GOD = born again in the spirit, having received the Holy Ghost.)
John 3:5-6
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

1 John 3:9-10
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

And below John makes clear, you are "born of GOD'" if you have received the "power" to become a child of GOD.

John 1:12-13
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

What power is John talking about? The Holy Spirit Jesus promised to those who believe on Him

Acts 1:8
8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you:

So now you know that if you have the Holy Spirit of Jesus Christ you are a child of GOD and born again. Now the Holy Spirit is able to put to death the deeds of the flesh.

Romans 8:13-14
13For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

This is why John tells us that
1 John 3:9-10
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Because those that are born of GOD have the power to not sin anymore. They have the Holy Spirit to mortify the deeds of the flesh. Before the Holy Spirit comes in you have no power over the darkness in you. You can not break free from the darkness and walk in the light without the Holy Spirit.

Many people have heaped to themselves preachers with "itching ears" who want to truth to be

2 Timothy 4:3
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

After their own lusts.....they look for doctrine or teachers that teach them it's ok if you continue to sin you will still be saved. But if you continue to sin and live after the flesh you SHALL DIE.

But GOD says you must put to death the deeds of the flesh (your sins)

Romans 6:6
And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

Galatians 5:16
This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh

Romans 8:13-14
13For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. 14For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God

Finally, please never forget

1 John 2:1
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:




I love you all, and I speak this of my own words, the devil and the flesh sometimes makes us feel like living holy is so tedious and draining. But that is just the flesh lusting after what it has already tasted (name the sin). But when you grow in the Spirit of GOD and walk in the Spirit and are led by the Spirit, the lusts and pulls of the flesh grow very small and the joy,peace,love,connection with GOD, miracles, signs, wonders are all present and so wonderful, and it is better than anything this fallen world can offer. We are working for a crown, and an eternal rest, away from this flesh which lusteth against the Spirit. Press towards the mark of the prize of the high calling of GOD in Christ Jesus and trust in the one who is able to keep us from falling and present us faultless before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy. Amen glory be to GOD in the name of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ​

Can you explain what John meant when he said "for his seed remainth in him?"