Perfection Gospel

[DoubtfulSalvation]

Hello everyone, has anyone heard of this gospel? From my understanding it's the teaching that true Christians are free from the power of all sin and that there are no Christians that sin every day. Is anyone familiar with this and are there any baptist who practice this gospel?

 

[nonaeroterraqueous]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_perfection

It's the invention of John Wesley. You'll find it in Methodist and, naturally, Wesleyan churches. Whether or not any Baptists follow this doctrine, I do not know. It's a fundamentally flawed position regarding the nature of perfection.

I have a Buddhist coworker who thinks that perfection is possible. We were debating over the matter while he was using a pH meter on some bacterial growth media that he had prepared. If the pH of the media was supposed to be exactly 7.4, then he claimed that he had done a perfect thing, because he had made the media at exactly 7.4. I told him that the meter was only capable of reading to the tenths place, unless he changed the setting. Even then, there was still a limit to the precision of the device. Unless he could find a meter that was capable of infinite precision (perfectly precise) and accuracy (perfectly accurate), then he could not use it to judge his own perfection. It would require an infinite number of digits in the display. Of course, that's impossible. The problem relates to anyone who thinks that any measure of perfection can be achieved in this life. They attempt to measure their accuracy with an imperfectly precise metric. The problem with Wesley and those who follow him is that they seem to think that the nature of sin comes down to such simple things as thou shalt not commit adultery and thou shalt not covet, and go no deeper. If you can follow those rules, then you have done well, but Jesus took it to the next step and said that if you even look lustfully at a woman, then you have committed adultery. Even if you follow all of the rules on the larger scale, you can always examine the matter on a finer scale, and you will always see the inherent sin in any person. Anyone who thinks he has no sin is just fooling himself. You can clean a room to "perfection," until you get out the microscope and look more closely, at which point the room magically becomes filthy. The dirt is still everywhere. It's just smaller.

It all goes back to the coastline paradox:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coastline_paradox
The Wikipedia article might be a little obscure, but it goes back to the same principle of the metric used to measure a thing. How long is the coastline of England? It all depends on how closely you measure it. Do you measure around every inlet? Every boulder? Every atom? Every electron? The finer the details that you trace around, the longer the coastline becomes. The more closely you look, the longer the coastline becomes. As your measurement approaches an infinitely fine scale, the coastline becomes infinitely long. Similarly, as you stand further back, the entire island approaches a single point. An infinitely large scale of measurement turns the whole island into an infinitesimal point, and the island has no coastline at all.

Such is the nature of the perfection gospel, also known as the Holiness Doctrine. It sees perfection with imperfect eyes. Trust me, if you see perfection in anyone, then it means that you simply are not looking closely enough. There's so much more to sin than simply a list of things to do or not do. It's such a soot that permeates the essence of our being, that there's no escape to be had in this life.

 

[Goodbook]

Ive heard of holiness doctrine but not perfection gospel. Yes its something John wesley the father of methodism esposused. I havent really heard it in any baptist church.

Baptists do teach about sanctification, but not in the exact same way wesleyans do.

 

[twin1954]

Perfectionism was a part of John Wesley's theology though he never thought that he had achieved it. It later was taken up by the Keswickinans and again by Charles Finney. It is now practiced by Pentecostals and Holiness folks. They believe that they can go for days and years without sinning. The Presbyterian Theologian and professor at Princeton, when it was still a school of theology, B. B. Warfield wrote a whole volume on it. You can read a review of it here:
http://heidelblog.net/2014/11/warfield-on-the-two-sources-of-perfectionism/

BTW, he taught against it.

 

[DoubtfulSalvation]

Perfectionism was a part of John Wesley's theology though he never thought that he had achieved it. It later was taken up by the Keswickinans and again by Charles Finney. It is now practiced by Pentecostals and Holiness folks. They believe that they can go for days and years without sinning. The Presbyterian Theologian and professor at Princeton, when it was still a school of theology, B. B. Warfield wrote a whole volume on it. You can read a review of it here:
http://heidelblog.net/2014/11/warfield-on-the-two-sources-of-perfectionism/

BTW, he taught against it.

Thanks to everyone for the awesome information! I find myself trying harder to not sin more than ever, but am so let down and disappointed when I fail. Lets say i look at a pretty young women in public for example. I always feel like I'm walking on egg shells around God because of this. I don't want a license to sin, but I do want to feel a little more free to make mistakes and learn from them. Twin, I believe you know where I'm coming from as we've had the pleasure of speaking before. I'm all for trying to live like Christ, I just condemn myself when I fail =(.

 

[DoubtfulSalvation]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_perfection

It's the invention of John Wesley. You'll find it in Methodist and, naturally, Wesleyan churches. Whether or not any Baptists follow this doctrine, I do not know. It's a fundamentally flawed position regarding the nature of perfection.

I have a Buddhist coworker who thinks that perfection is possible. We were debating over the matter while he was using a pH meter on some bacterial growth media that he had prepared. If the pH of the media was supposed to be exactly 7.4, then he claimed that he had done a perfect thing, because he had made the media at exactly 7.4. I told him that the meter was only capable of reading to the tenths place, unless he changed the setting. Even then, there was still a limit to the precision of the device. Unless he could find a meter that was capable of infinite precision (perfectly precise) and accuracy (perfectly accurate), then he could not use it to judge his own perfection. It would require an infinite number of digits in the display. Of course, that's impossible. The problem relates to anyone who thinks that any measure of perfection can be achieved in this life. They attempt to measure their accuracy with an imperfectly precise metric. The problem with Wesley and those who follow him is that they seem to think that the nature of sin comes down to such simple things as thou shalt not commit adultery and thou shalt not covet, and go no deeper. If you can follow those rules, then you have done well, but Jesus took it to the next step and said that if you even look lustfully at a woman, then you have committed adultery. Even if you follow all of the rules on the larger scale, you can always examine the matter on a finer scale, and you will always see the inherent sin in any person. Anyone who thinks he has no sin is just fooling himself. You can clean a room to "perfection," until you get out the microscope and look more closely, at which point the room magically becomes filthy. The dirt is still everywhere. It's just smaller.

It all goes back to the coastline paradox:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coastline_paradox
The Wikipedia article might be a little obscure, but it goes back to the same principle of the metric used to measure a thing. How long is the coastline of England? It all depends on how closely you measure it. Do you measure around every inlet? Every boulder? Every atom? Every electron? The finer the details that you trace around, the longer the coastline becomes. The more closely you look, the longer the coastline becomes. As your measurement approaches an infinitely fine scale, the coastline becomes infinitely long. Similarly, as you stand further back, the entire island approaches a single point. An infinitely large scale of measurement turns the whole island into an infinitesimal point, and the island has no coastline at all.

Such is the nature of the perfection gospel, also known as the Holiness Doctrine. It sees perfection with imperfect eyes. Trust me, if you see perfection in anyone, then it means that you simply are not looking closely enough. There's so much more to sin than simply a list of things to do or not do. It's such a soot that permeates the essence of our being, that there's no escape to be had in this life.

Thanks for taking the time to write such a great reply. I agree that there is so much more to sin than a simple to do list. Like, how about sins of omission? The sin where I'm suppose to do something good, and I know it, but I don't. We all do these sorts of things. I find the perfection gospel to be extremely hypocritical and so far, I've found it's followers to be prideful and quite aggressive.

 

[MWood]

Thanks to everyone for the awesome information! I find myself trying harder to not sin more than ever, but am so let down and disappointed when I fail. Lets say i look at a pretty young women in public for example. I always feel like I'm walking on egg shells around God because of this. I don't want a license to sin, but I do want to feel a little more free to make mistakes and learn from them. Twin, I believe you know where I'm coming from as we've had the pleasure of speaking before. I'm all for trying to live like Christ, I just condemn myself when I fail =(.

You do know that all the sins of the world were forgiven when Jesus shed His blood on the cross?
This doesn't give you a license to sin. You will sin whether you have a license or not. You are human, you can't help it. In your prayers thank God for the shed blood of Christ that gave you this forgiveness. Don't go around beating yourself up over something that you can't do any thing about. Just let go and let God.

 

[DoubtfulSalvation]

You do know that all the sins of the world were forgiven when Jesus shed His blood on the cross?
This doesn't give you a license to sin. You will sin whether you have a license or not. You are human, you can't help it. In your prayers thank God for the shed blood of Christ that gave you this forgiveness. Don't go around beating yourself up over something that you can't do any thing about. Just let go and let God.

Yes, I do believe in Christ completed work on the cross, but I have trouble FULLY accepting it. It's almost unreal, that I can't get my head around the magnificence of it all. I just want to know if I die tonight that I did as much as I could with what I had. I don't want to be found at the judgement seat lacking anything if I can help it, ya know?

 

[Winken]

Yes, I do believe in Christ completed work on the cross, but I have trouble FULLY accepting it. It's almost unreal, that I can't get my head around the magnificence of it all. I just want to know if I die tonight that I did as much as I could with what I had. I don't want to be found at the judgement seat lacking anything if I can help it, ya know?

It is Spiritual perfection, DS. HE has done it all for those who believe (Romans 10:8-13). If you die tonight, know that HE did all that was necessary. You won't be lacking at the Judgment Seat of Christ, where CHRISTIANS are asked about their various ministries.

 

[MWood]

Yes, I do believe in Christ completed work on the cross, but I have trouble FULLY accepting it. It's almost unreal, that I can't get my head around the magnificence of it all. I just want to know if I die tonight that I did as much as I could with what I had. I don't want to be found at the judgement seat lacking anything if I can help it, ya know?

I sounds like you are too emotional about your knowledge of Jesus???

 

[DoubtfulSalvation]

I sounds like you are too emotional about your knowledge of Jesus???

I would say that I'm an emotional person. Full disclosure, I have a number of mental disorders that lends to this i.e Bipolar, ocd, Borderline Personality disorder, General Anxiety and Panic. So, it could be related lol!

 

[twin1954]

I would say that I'm an emotional person. Full disclosure, I have a number of mental disorders that lends to this i.e Bipolar, ocd, Borderline Personality disorder, General Anxiety and Panic. So, it could be related lol!

Learn all you can about the Person and work of the Lord Jesus Christ and keep your eyes and heart fixed on Him and all will be well. Learn to rest in Him alone and you will find that peace that passes understanding.

 

[98cwitr]

Let's be careful not to provide an explanation that could be misconstrued to promote sin; or give "license to freely sin." Let us recall what sin actually is, and the position that willful sin puts us in (ie: fearful expectation of judgment).

 

[DoubtfulSalvation]

Is that same judgement the judgement of hell or something else?

 

[twin1954]

Is that same judgement the judgement of hell or something else?

Believers who rest in Christ have already been judged in Him. They need have no fear of judgment. God cannot punish Christ for the sin of one of His saints and then punish them for their sin because that would be unrighteous.

Still I understand the cause of 98's post. We are never to look at sin as though it is a small thing. God hates sin so much that when He found it on His Son, by imputation, that He killed Him. If you want to know about the character of God simply go to the cross. There you will see the strict unbending justice of God in His punishment for sin. There you will see the infinite mercy and grace of God in laying the sin of all His elect on His Son and killing Him instead of them. There you will see the wondrous love of God for His people in accomplishing all that was required for the salvation of their souls. There you will se the unimaginable love of Christ for His people in giving Himself for them and dying in their place. All of the attributes of God are on full display at the cross of Christ.

 

[Goodbook]

You need to know Gods mercy and grace to forgive.
There is no condemnation in christ for those who walk in the spirit and not the flesh.

If you have trouble accepting this, theres certain things you can do.

1. Read the bible and get to know Gods character more. He forgives our sins. He doesnt remember them.
2. If flesh is a problem, you need to put it to death, when Jesus died on the cross his flesh was put to death. He arose again. We must recognise when he was crucified we are too, if we have been baptised in him then raised to new life. Are you baptised?
3. Reciving the holy spirit gives you grace and power to overcome sin.
4. Persistent habitual sins, may call for fasting and prayer. Remember Jesus fasted in the wilderness 40 nights. When he was casting out demons He said that some things cannot go out except by prayer and fasting.

 

[Kersh]

I attend a church that is theologically Baptist, but nominally non-denominational. I was raised Methodist, and I have always been drawn toward the teachings of John Wesley. In the past year, I have been looking more into his teachings on Christian Perfection. Since this is the Baptist forum, I don't think it's my place to argue or debate whether Christian Perfection is sound doctrine (though I believe it is). For the most part, though, I find it to be not terribly different than the notion of sanctification. If anything, the main difference between "Christian Perfection" as taught by Wesley and embraced by the holiness movement and sanctification, as embraced by Baptist and other evangelicals, is the question of whether this can be achieved within one's earthly life. I think we all agree that the goal is to become perfect like Jesus, whether in this life or "the next".

 

[DoubtfulSalvation]

Is the doctrine of perfection meaning that once a christian becomes saved he instantly walks perfectly like Jesus and sanctification is admitting that we are still human but the spirit refines us everyday to look more like christ?

 

[OzSpen]

Hello everyone, has anyone heard of this gospel? From my understanding it's the teaching that true Christians are free from the power of all sin and that there are no Christians that sin every day. Is anyone familiar with this and are there any baptist who practice this gospel?

John Wesley called it 'entire sanctification' or 'Christian perfection'. Here is a Wesleyan summary of his view: http://ucmpage.org/sgca/wesley01.htm.

While he claimed it was a special emphasis of the Wesleyan Methodists, his view was that it was not a new doctrine but was revived by the Methodists. It could be either instantaneous or progressive.

My understanding is that progressive sanctification is based on positional sanctification, which I consider is the biblical view.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Is the doctrine of perfection meaning that once a christian becomes saved he instantly walks perfectly like Jesus and sanctification is admitting that we are still human but the spirit refines us everyday to look more like christ?

No, that is not what 'entire sanctification' or 'Christian perfection' means. It is based on 1 Thess 5:23-24 (ESV), 'Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. He who calls you is faithful; he will surely do it'.

It begins with positional sanctification (when we are justified by faith) and then grows so that we more like Jesus in purity so that our entire being will be sanctified. Wesley believed it could happen instantaneously or progressively.

Oz