LDS Pay the voluntary tithe to escape the fire?

[Rescued One]

“And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭14:20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I cannot help but notice how little you use scripture in your rebuttals...

If there is no blessing linked to the tithe in the New Covenant, is it truly a "better" Covenant?

Christians are blessed. We don't have to pay for the blessings.

Ephesians 1:3 (KJV)
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

Which blessing are we lacking?

 

[Rescued One]

are we not under the law of God?

No, we are under grace.

 

[pdudgeon]

No, we are under grace.

so what does being under the covenant of grace mean to you in practical terms?
and by saying that we are under grace are you intending to imply that the 10 Commandments of God have no relavence to us?

 

[2 know him]

The tithe is God’s law for His children, yet the payment is entirely voluntary. In this respect it does not differ from the law of the Sabbath or from any other of His laws. We may refuse to obey any or all of them. Our obedience is voluntary, but our refusal to pay does not abrogate or repeal the law...

The payment of tithing strengthens faith, increases spirituality and spiritual capacity, and solidifies testimony. It gives the satisfaction of knowing one is complying with the will of the Lord. It brings the blessings that come from sharing with others through the purposes for which tithing is used. We cannot afford to deny ourselves these blessings. We cannot afford not to pay our tithing. We have a definite relationship to the future as well as to the present. What we give, and how we give, and the way we meet our obligations to the Lord has eternal significance.

A testimony of the law of tithing comes from living it. Like all other of God’s laws, when we live them we receive the blessings.
Howard W. Hunter(1907-95), Ensign, March 2013

D&C 64
23 Behold, now it is called today until the coming of the Son of Man, and verily it is a day of sacrifice, and a day for the tithing of my people; for he that is tithed shall not be burned at his coming.

This is not to encourage non-Mormons to be stingy in their giving! Remember the widow's mite.

The question is do Mormons want to escape the fire?

I just read the first few posts and can't believe the junk people actually believe.

Tithing was a command to the children of Israel to ensure their brethren (the Levites) had their needs taken care of. The Levites made up about 10% of the Israelite nation and they had no land to be able to take care of their necessities in Israel.

Some people like to point to Abraham and say how he tithed to Melchisedec, king of Salem. But Abraham did not tithe of his own wealth, but of the goods returned through war and he only did it once.

None of the Apostles were of the tribe of Levi and they would have thought it blasphemous to take tithes: as they had no right to make such a claim.

Those who teach tithing are not only absolutely wrong for doing so, it is another proof that they know nothing of the new covenant.

 

[2 know him]

so what does being under the covenant of grace mean to you in practical terms?
and by saying that we are under grace are you intending to imply that the 10 Commandments of God have no relavence to us?

That is correct, the 10 commandments have no relevance to us today, as we don't serve God through obligation, but rather we do so through Love and such love we learned through Christ. Now you may ask: so can we kill or do other things that the 10 commandments forbad? But let me ask you: what good did the 10 commandments do for the children of Israel? NONE. Then why do you focus on them?

Joh 1:16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.
Joh 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

Do you know God through the 10 Commandments, or because of the son? How is the righteousness of the law fulfilled: by intimacy with God (through Loving him with all our being) and thus we don't want to offend Him, or through self determination?

 

[Rescued One]

so what does being under the covenant of grace mean to you in practical terms?
and by saying that we are under grace are you intending to imply that the 10 Commandments of God have no relavence to us?

We love him because he first loved us. Because we love Christ we are being conformed to his image(sanctification).

Men were unable to keep the law.

James 2
8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:

9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.

10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.*

11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.

*Do you keep all 613 commandments?

Romans 5 (KJV)
5 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God...

14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Romans 6:1-2 “What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?”

Romans 6:14-15 “For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. 15 What then shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.”

But can a person keep 613 commandments? Of course, not.

We are saved on the basis of Christ's righteousness. Yet we still obey the moral law.

 

[Blade]

This is not the Father changes a heart that is blind to see. Many are blind.. if you were blind you would have no sin.. you say you see your sin remains. Its one thing to show errors in teaching.. how things have been changed over years..but still ..in love. Or they will just dig in more.

 

[2 know him]

This is not the Father changes a heart that is blind to see. Many are blind.. if you were blind you would have no sin.. you say you see your sin remains. Its one thing to show errors in teaching.. how things have been changed over years..but still ..in love. Or they will just dig in more.

You bring up a good point, but when the blind start driving it is time to get out and start walking. It is for this reason today's churches are empty; those who teach tithing are blind. (See post 64 for a clear rebuttal of the original post.)

 

[pdudgeon]

Christians are blessed. We don't have to pay for the blessings.

Sorry, but this ^^ goes way beyond both logic and all respect for who God is, as though we were somehow "good enough" that God just gives us stuff based on our own merit.

It's not like that by a long shot, and a horrible, terrible insult to God to think such a thing.

 

[dzheremi]

"As You have received the gifts of the righteous Abel, the sacrifice of our father Abraham, and the two mites of the widow, so also receive the thank offerings of Your servants, those in abundance and those in scarcity, hidden or manifest. Those who desire to offer to You but have none, and those who have offered these gifts to you this very day, give them the incorruptible instead of the corruptible, the heavenly instead of the earthly, and the eternal instead of the temporal. Their houses and their stores, fill them with every good thing..." -- From the Litany of the Oblations as prayed during Vespers in the Coptic Orthodox Church

My own tradition encourages (not mandates) tithing, but never ties it to any kind of reward such that this might be in itself an encouragement to people to give. That is abusive and wicked, and makes a mockery of our holy and pure offerings. We're not running a PBS pledge drive here, and even if we were, God knows the person's heart, and so the desire to give is what is important, even if you cannot do so. As with everything else, there have been times when I could do so and times when I could not, and everyone is understanding and merciful. As they say of the fasts, we are not to look at a brother's plate. Well, same goes for their wallets.

Of course, the Copts do not pass a collection plate, so far as I've seen, so there really isn't that social pressure to give that Christians in other traditions might experience. The Southern United States diocese has been sending me refrigerator magnets with little reproductions of famous icons of St. George and St. Philopateer Mercurius on them for years now, and unless you count the money I gave to my own parish (which was within the Southern US diocese) so that we could buy the land needed for our church, I don't recall having ever given them a dime.

 

[pdudgeon]

You bring up a good point, but when the blind start driving it is time to get out and start walking. It is for this reason today's churches are empty; those who teach tithing are blind. (See post 64 for a clear rebuttal of the original post.)

it is one reason churches are empty, but not the only one.
the main reason is that people have tried God's way in God's Church and found it not to their liking.
So they leave and form churches in their own image and which are to their liking. They go their own way and leave God and His hedge of protection behind them.
And when that doesn't work, they leave again and try again; going further and further away from God each time, until what they finally arrive at looks like them and bears absolutely no resemblance to God or to His son, Jesus.

And what started out as a greatful, heartful offering to God becomes nothing more than a tip of the hat in passing at the end of the day.
and that's sad.

 

[dzheremi]

Sorry, but this ^^ goes way beyond both logic and all respect for who God is, as though we were somehow "good enough" that God just gives us stuff based on our own merit.

It's not like that by a long shot, and a horrible, terrible insult to God to think such a thing.

What if it's not about God giving us 'stuff' so much as His grace which suffices for us in all things being freely available by virtue of the fact that He loves us and wants us to take from Him what we, by our nature as inherently finite and flawed beings, can neither 'merit' nor 'pay' for?

Because if it is that way (and I have to say it is, in order to be faithful to my own Orthodox tradition), then both of these seeming poles are approaching things wrongly, and for roughly the same reason: They assume that it is we who are giving to God, by our 'payment' (of some unspecified sort) or our meritorious works, that by which He will tender to us the appropriate reward. Like God is a cash machine, and we give Him 20 merits, and He gives us back whatever amount in blessings equal to that which we gave Him.

I have real problems with that, because of course it is not us who effect the blessing because we're so great to have earned whatever.

One of the first church phrases I learned in Arabic (because I'd only taken it in college, where they don't teach you church Arabic) was something I heard Copts saying over and over -- "Neshkorallah akhadny el baraka", something like "thanks be to God, I took (akhadny) the blessing". I didn't know it at the time, but that is very much the outlook nurtured in Coptic Orthodox spirituality, as in the following video on prayer by HH Pope Shenouda III, which likewise explicitly says that true prayer is taking from God, not giving to Him (feelings, minutes, money, etc.), as though He Himself is in need of anything from us. Not at all. We need Him, and we cannot 'merit' or 'pay for' what He gives us.

 

[2 know him]

it is one reason churches are empty, but not the only one.
the main reason is that people have tried God's way in God's Church and found it not to their liking.
So they leave and form churches in their own image and which are to their liking. They go their own way and leave God and His hedge of protection behind them.
And when that doesn't work, they leave again and try again; going further and further away from God each time, until what they finally arrive at looks like them and bears absolutely no resemblance to God or to His son, Jesus.

And what started out as a greatful, heartful offering to God becomes nothing more than a tip of the hat in passing at the end of the day.
and that's sad.

BTW: the Catholic Church also teaches tithing and I personally take exception with you claiming that such an evil organization with such a horrid past is God's church.

 

[Rescued One]

Sorry, but this ^^ goes way beyond both logic and all respect for who God is, as though we were somehow "good enough" that God just gives us stuff based on our own merit.

It's not like that by a long shot, and a horrible, terrible insult to God to think such a thing.

You're so very mistaken. We deserve to be punished, but God wants to show His mercy, and He has chosen to bless us. We will always be unprofitable servants.

Matthew 6
6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.

Ephesians 1
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

 

[robert skynner]

The tithe is God’s law for His children, yet the payment is entirely voluntary. In this respect it does not differ from the law of the Sabbath or from any other of His laws. We may refuse to obey any or all of them. Our obedience is voluntary, but our refusal to pay does not abrogate or repeal the law...

The payment of tithing strengthens faith, increases spirituality and spiritual capacity, and solidifies testimony. It gives the satisfaction of knowing one is complying with the will of the Lord. It brings the blessings that come from sharing with others through the purposes for which tithing is used. We cannot afford to deny ourselves these blessings. We cannot afford not to pay our tithing. We have a definite relationship to the future as well as to the present. What we give, and how we give, and the way we meet our obligations to the Lord has eternal significance.

A testimony of the law of tithing comes from living it. Like all other of God’s laws, when we live them we receive the blessings.
Howard W. Hunter(1907-95), Ensign, March 2013

D&C 64
23 Behold, now it is called today until the coming of the Son of Man, and verily it is a day of sacrifice, and a day for the tithing of my people; for he that is tithed shall not be burned at his coming.

This is not to encourage non-Mormons to be stingy in their giving! Remember the widow's mite.

The question is do Mormons want to escape the fire?

Great comment Phoebe Ann, but may I also add that the tithe was always food under the levitical law, see Leviticus 27:30 where the tithe is food from plants and trees as well as the 10th animal to pass under an outstretched rod, but only within the nation of Israel paid by hebrews within the promised land (Deuteronomy 6:1-3). There were also three tithes not one (Levitical, Festival and Poor tithes - Deuteronomy 14:22-29, Numbers 18:18-20), and absolutely no tithes were paid every 7th (sabbath) and 50th (Jubilee) year when there was complete exemption from the tithes. So if you aren't tithing exactly how these hebrews tithed within the land of Israel, then what you are calling tithing isn't Biblical and your religious leaders are simply scamming you out of your money.

 

[robert skynner]

D&C 64
23 Behold, now it is called today until the coming of the Son of Man, and verily it is a day of sacrifice, and a day for the tithing of my people; for he that is tithed shall not be burned at his coming.

This is not to encourage non-Mormons to be stingy in their giving! Remember the widow's mite.

The question is do Mormons want to escape the fire?

What does the reference to "burned" in D&C 64:23 refer to? I thought that Mormons today reject the concept of eternal burning in hell and then almost everyone will escape burning in hell - or have I got this wrong? As for the widows mite, Jesus was not commending her, but using her as in illustration on his dialogue on religious hypocrisy where religious leaders devour widow's houses, then in the next verse, Jesus sees this woman who has foolishly lost her house and possessions to the religious leaders, she gives her last few coins to the hypocritical scribes and pharisees before she leaves, no doubt to starve, so Jesus isn't commending her, in his talk on religious scammer who talk your last penny he uses her as an example and then after the account of her giving her last penny, Jesus then continues to berate these religious leaders who use man-made religious rules to deceive people (such as this poor widow) out of their money.

 

[robert skynner]

Little bit of logic here.

Tithing is a Biblical commandment.

What happens when people violate the commandments?

Tithing under the law was forbidden to gentiles (Psalm 147:19-20), the Levitical law inclusive of tithing was given exclusively to Hebrews (Leviticus 27:34). So yes tithing was a Biblical command, but only to Hebrews, living within the land of Israel (Deuteronomy 6:1-3), who paid three tithes (Levitical, festival and poor tithes) only on agricultural produce of the land of Israel i.e. food (Leviticus 27:30), with no tithes payable every 7th (Sabbath year) and 50th (Jubilee year). So if you are not a Hebrew living in the land of Israel, paying three tithes the first of which is taken by you directly to one of 48 specified Levitical cities where you hand your tithes of crops over to the tribe of Levi, using the other two tithes as specified and no paying any tithes every 7th and 50th years, then you are sinning, and every time you pay your pastor money and call it a tithe, you are acting counter to the scriptural commands on tithing.

 

[robert skynner]

Thank you. I don't believe tithing is a commandment, but I do believe that giving generously is a privilege!

Giving generously (i.e money) is definitely not tithing. Tithing was a part of the levitical law, it was a command, and wasn't an option which you could choose to do or not to do. Tithing (under the law) was only food (Leviticus 27:30), not money. Tithing being food was linked to the land of Israel and so you only tithed on your agricultural increase from the land of Israel once you entered into the land (Deuteronomy 6:1-3). Gentiles were forbidden to tithe as they were not under the law (Psalm 147:19-20), which is why Cornelius in Acts 10 gave arms, as he was forbidden to tithe. Under the law, even converts to Judaism were excluded from tithing, as not being able to name their tribe they couldn't therefore tithe of their agricultural increase from their tribes portion of land within Israel - for being converts to Judiasm, they had no tribal land inheritance. What is called tithing today is an utter disgrace, as pastors are using out of context Bible verses to scam the gullible for money!

 

[robert skynner]

I'm surprised nobody has brought up Malachi 3:10-11.

"10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the Lord of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.

11 And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes, and he shall not destroy the fruits of your ground; neither shall your vine cast her fruit before the time in the field, saith the Lord of hosts."

Has God changed since Malachi was written?

Malachi was written to Jewish priests who were abusing the tithes (of food such as grain, fruits and livestock), notice Malachi 2:1: "and now oh priests their commandment is for you." Gentiles are not and were never under the law (Psalm 147:19-2), gentiles even gentile converts to Judaism were never permitted to tithe, as in the case of Cornelius (Acts 10:4), who gave alms (gifts) because he was forbidden under the Levitical law as a convert to Judaism (but with no nameable tribe) from tithing. Notice that Malachi 3:10 refers to the tithe as .... FOOD! If God hasn't changed since Malachi then tithe only food (Numbers 27:3), pay three tithes not one, tithe only from the agricultural produce of the land of Israel (Deuteronomy 6:1-3), and do not pay any tithes every 7th and 50th year, just as the Levitial law states. However, Paul warns us that if we attempt to mix either levitical or man-made laws, with the new covenant, then we've fallen from grace (Galatians 3).

 

[robert skynner]

We are not part of the nation of Israel. We are not under the law of Moses

But Mormons and many evangelical Christians are under the law! Mormons are under the man-made law of the LDS leaders in Utah. Many evangelical Christians are under the man-made laws invented by their pastors! In both cases the religious leaders prefer to scam people into giving them (the religious leaders) money, as that is easy to do to people who do not have a clue whom they are in Christ (i.e. under the new covenant). These deceived people think that if they act just like a private ATM machine for their religious leaders then they can buy salvation and peace of mind for their religious future - which is actually dire as they simply do not have a clue whom they are (or could be) in Christ.