Paul and the Gospels

wayseer

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We know Paul wrote his letters (the genuine ones) well before any of the gospels writers got going. We also know that Mark was written about 68 AD, about the time Paul was killed, and that Luke and Matthew, who wrote after 70 AD, utilized Mark and Q to compose their work.

Question - What, if any, influence did Paul have on the authors of the Gospels?

It appears that both Matthew and Luke were compiled uses other material yet it seems that no material of Paul was used to help in that work. Yet Paul's letters were in existence, as indeed was the fledging Christian Church, thanks to Paul.

It seems almost incongruent that given Paul's influence that his work was deliberately laid aside. It seems also implausible that Paul's letters were somehow locked away from roving eyes. So, what happened?
 

wayseer

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No scripture is of any mans interpretation. So why would Pauls letters influence what the Gospel writers experienced first hand?

What do you mean by 'what the Gospels writers experience first hand'?

The authors of Matthew and Luke copied chunks from Mark and another source known as Q.

Mark was written about the time of Paul's death, 68 AD. Paul had written his letters well before that date.

Matthew and Luke were written in the late 70s AD and John about the turn of the century. None of those authors had any experience with a living Jesus - even Paul who started his ministry perhaps as early as one year after Jesus' death had not met Jesus.

(You might note that I do not subscribe to the believe that God 'controlled the pen' or that we and nothing more than puppets).
 
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Hentenza

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We know Paul wrote his letters (the genuine ones) well before any of the gospels writers got going. We also know that Mark was written about 68 AD, about the time Paul was killed, and that Luke and Matthew, who wrote after 70 AD, utilized Mark and Q to compose their work.

Question - What, if any, influence did Paul have on the authors of the Gospels?

It appears that both Matthew and Luke were compiled uses other material yet it seems that no material of Paul was used to help in that work. Yet Paul's letters were in existence, as indeed was the fledging Christian Church, thanks to Paul.

It seems almost incongruent that given Paul's influence that his work was deliberately laid aside. It seems also implausible that Paul's letters were somehow locked away from roving eyes. So, what happened?

The problem begins with your assumption of Q. There is no Q. There is no evidence for Q. There has never been any evidence from Q. There are no extant copies or fragments of Q, nor did any of the ECFs ever refer to or quoted from Q. Q is merely an invention from those that deny the inspiration of scripture.
 
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Frogster

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We know Paul wrote his letters (the genuine ones) well before any of the gospels writers got going. We also know that Mark was written about 68 AD, about the time Paul was killed, and that Luke and Matthew, who wrote after 70 AD, utilized Mark and Q to compose their work.

Question - What, if any, influence did Paul have on the authors of the Gospels?

It appears that both Matthew and Luke were compiled uses other material yet it seems that no material of Paul was used to help in that work. Yet Paul's letters were in existence, as indeed was the fledging Christian Church, thanks to Paul.

It seems almost incongruent that given Paul's influence that his work was deliberately laid aside. It seems also implausible that Paul's letters were somehow locked away from roving eyes. So, what happened?

If I remember correctly,didn't you say Paul did not write Ephesians,on another thread?
 
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LiturgyInDMinor

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The problem begins with your assumption of Q. There is no Q. There is no evidence for Q. There has never been any evidence from Q. There are no extant copies or fragments of Q, nor did any of the ECFs ever refer to or quoted from Q. Q is merely an invention from those that deny the inspiration of scripture.


Thankyou!
I was going to post along these line but you beat me to it.
Q is not a proven entity or concept.
 
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Yarddog

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We know Paul wrote his letters (the genuine ones) well before any of the gospels writers got going. We also know that Mark was written about 68 AD, about the time Paul was killed, and that Luke and Matthew, who wrote after 70 AD, utilized Mark and Q to compose their work.
From what I've read, this is not fact, but what many scholars accept.
Question - What, if any, influence did Paul have on the authors of the Gospels?
IMO, he had influence on Luke and Mark, as did Peter and the others that saw Jesus. Matthew, being an eye witness, may have had little influence from Paul as did John. Also, their main influence was the Holy Spirit, not man.
It appears that both Matthew and Luke were compiled uses other material yet it seems that no material of Paul was used to help in that work. Yet Paul's letters were in existence, as indeed was the fledging Christian Church, thanks to Paul.
Paul was not an eye witness of the life of Jesus, so why would he influence the Gospel writers in what Jesus said and did before the resurrection.
It seems almost incongruent that given Paul's influence that his work was deliberately laid aside. It seems also implausible that Paul's letters were somehow locked away from roving eyes. So, what happened?
What reason would Paul's letters have with writing the Gospels? He was called to deliver the message to the Gentiles while the Gospels were about about Jesus' life among the Jews.
 
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Jazmyn

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The Apostles accepted Paul as an Apostle (Galatians 2:9), but they compiled their gospels separately from the letters of Paul, since why would they base their accounts on someone who wasn't an eyewitness?

Mark
A letter (70-255 AD) from Clement of Alexandria on how Mark wrote his gospel:

"As for Mark, then, during Peter's stay in Rome he wrote an account of the Lord's doings, not, however, declaring all of them, nor yet hinting at the secret ones, but selecting what he thought most useful for increasing the faith of those who were being instructed. But when Peter died a martyr, Mark came over to Alexandria, bringing both his own notes and those of Peter, from which he transferred to his former book the things suitable to whatever makes for progress toward knowledge. Thus he composed a more spiritual Gospel for the use of those who were being perfected. Nevertheless, he yet did not divulge the things not to be uttered, nor did he write down the hierophantic teaching of the Lord, but to the stories already written he added yet others and, moreover, brought in certain sayings of which he knew the interpretation would, as a mystagogue, lead the hearers into the innermost sanctuary of that truth hidden by seven veils. Thus, in sum, he prepared matters, neither grudgingly nor incautiously, in my opinion, and, dying, he left his composition to the church in 1, verso Alexandria, where it even yet is most carefully guarded, being read only to those who are being initiated into the great mysteries." http://earlychristianwritings.com/text/secretmark.html

Secret Mark was ignored after heretics stole it and wrote heresies into it.

Luke
Muratorian fragment, the earliest known list of the canon, 170 AD, on Luke's gospel:

"The third book of the Gospel is that according to Luke. Luke, the well-known physician, after the ascension of Christ, when Paul had taken with him as one zealous for the law, composed it in his own name, according to [the general] belief. Yet he himself had not seen the Lord in the flesh; and therefore, as he was able to ascertain events, so indeed he begins to tell the story from the birth of John." http://www.bible-researcher.com/muratorian.html

Information on the gospel of Luke, Gospel of Luke:

"The oldest manuscript with the start of the gospel, Papyrus Bodmer XIV (ca. 200 CE), proclaims that it is the euangelion kata Loukan, the Gospel according to Luke. This attestation probably does not stem from reading Irenaeus (Adv. haer. 3.1.1) or Tertullian (Adv. Marcionem 4.2.2), nor Clement of Alexandria (Paedagogus 2.1.15 and Stromata 5.12.82), who also ascribe the third Gospel to one called Luke. Indeed, considering that the immediate recipient of Luke is mentioned in the preface, and given that the author of the third Gospel is aware that many other accounts have been drawn up before him, it is entirely probable that the author had indicated his name on the autograph. (The "most excellent Theophilus" mentioned in the preface of Luke is most likely his patron, as seen in the similar references to "most excellent X" in the prefaces to the De libris propriis liber of Galenus, the De antiquis oratoribus of Dionysius Halicarnassensis, the Scriptor De Divinatione of Melampus, the Peri ton kata antipatheian kai sumpatheian of Nepualius, and both Josephi vita and Contra Apionem of Josephus.) This Luke has traditionally been identified as the one named in Philemon 24 as a co-worker of Paul."

John
Muratorian fragment again, this time on how John wrote his gospel:
"The fourth of the Gospels is that of John, [one] of the disciples. To his fellow disciples and bishops, who had been urging him [to write], he said, 'Fast with me from today to three days, and what will be revealed to each one let us tell it to one another.' In the same night it was revealed to Andrew, [one] of the apostles, that John should write down all things in his own name while all of them should review it. And so, though various elements may be taught in the individual books of the Gospels, nevertheless this makes no difference to the faith of believers, since by the one sovereign Spirit all things have been declared in all [the Gospels]: concerning the nativity, concerning the passion, concerning the resurrection, concerning life with his disciples, and concerning his twofold coming; the first in lowliness when he was despised, which has taken place, the second glorious in royal power, which is still in the future. What marvel is it then, if John so consistently mentions these particular points also in his Epistles, saying about himself, 'What we have seen with our eyes and heard with our ears and our hands have handled, these things we have written to you? For in this way he professes [himself] to be not only an eye-witness and hearer, but also a writer of all the marvelous deeds of the Lord, in their order."

Paul on Paul:
"I want you to know, brothers, that the gospel I preached is not something that man made up. I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ." (Galatians 1:11-12)

So it would seem that Paul and the gospel writers didn't need to depend on each other for their accounts.
 
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Citizen of the Kingdom

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This was written on about pg 30 of the "women in Authority" thread.

Originally Posted by Verses

Matt 17:9 As they were coming down the mountain, Jesus instructed them, "Don't tell anyone what you have seen, until the Son of Man has been raised from the dead."

Mrk 9:9 Jesus gave them orders not to tell anyone what they had seen until the Son of Man had risen from the dead. They kept the matter to themselves, discussing what "rising from the dead" meant.

Lk 9:36 The disciples kept this to themselves, and told no one at that time what they had seen.


That proves that Paul was talking about everyone that wasn't bornagain.
Symbolically the husband is Jesus. The woman is the church.


It's not difficult to determine if Jesus outlined anything. He is the Final Word after all.

Omega
 
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Harry3142

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The official teaching of the RCC is that The Gospel of Matthew was written no later than 6 years after The Passion, and was written in Hebrew, as it was directed to the Jews of Judea; The Gospel of Mark was written 12 years after The Passion, and was intended as a 'portable' gospel, easily transported from place to place; The Gospel of Luke and Acts of the Apostles were completed no later than 26 years after The Passion, since they are very detailed about the early history of the church, but are completed prior to Sts. Peter and Paul's martyrdom in Rome in 64 A.D. The Gospel of St. John was written circa 80 A.D., and is recognized as the last gospel to be written. The socalled Gospel of Q is nothing more than the fabric of an overactive imagination. It never existed.

There has been a movement to 'push back' the writing of the gospels to the point where 'scholars' can claim them as more fiction than fact. But conservative Christians of both the RCC and protestant denominations hold to the official dates for their having been written. This puts them solidly within the time that the witnesses to the events were still alive and capable of either writing firsthand, as is the case with Matthew and Mark, or were able to tell firsthand reports to another, as is the case with Luke, who was careful to record their testimony accurately. The teaching of the church is that John's gospel was compiled by his secretary based on teachings that had been written down as St. John taught them to his brethren.

The Muratorian Fragment, mentioned in another massage, was written circa 170 A.D. It states that there were 4 gospels which they recognized as authentic. It lists nearly all the books and letters which were later canonized by The Council of Nicea. To read the english translation of this fragment, go to www.bible-researcher.com/muratorian.html .
 
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ebia

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The official teaching of the RCC is that The Gospel of Matthew was written no later than 6 years after The Passion, and was written in Hebrew, as it was directed to the Jews of Judea; The Gospel of Mark was written 12 years after The Passion, and was intended as a 'portable' gospel, easily transported from place to place; The Gospel of Luke and Acts of the Apostles were completed no later than 26 years after The Passion, since they are very detailed about the early history of the church, but are completed prior to Sts. Peter and Paul's martyrdom in Rome in 64 A.D. The Gospel of St. John was written circa 80 A.D., and is recognized as the last gospel to be written.
You certainly won't find many Catholic seminaries teaching those dates (at least down here). A date that early for Mark wouldn't even fit what the early fathers say (who place it, like very many scholars, around the time of Peter's death in the mid '60s in Rome).

The socalled Gospel of Q is nothing more than the fabric of an overactive imagination. It never existed.
Q (which would not be a gospel, and is never properly called that) is a hypothetical document, but there is good reason for thinking Matthew and Luke had a shared source or sources.

There has been a movement to 'push back' the writing of the gospels to the point where 'scholars' can claim them as more fiction than fact. But conservative Christians of both the RCC and protestant denominations hold to the official dates for their having been written.
You'll find very few serious historians & theologians, even relatively conservative ones, Catholic or Protestant holding to dates as early as you suggest.

A much more realistic dating for the gospels more or less as we have them is Mark - late '60s, Luke - early '70s, Matthew - late '70s, John late '80s or early '90s.

There is absolutely no reason why Luke/Acts needs to be written before the death of Paul since there are perfectly good alternative reasons why Luke would choose to end his story when he does.
 
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ebia

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Given that the gospels are inherently narrative biographies of Jesus, and Paul contains very little such narrative of Jesus, what exactly are you looking for?

What from Paul are you expecting to find in the gospels?
 
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wayseer

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The problem begins with your assumption of Q. There is no Q. There is no evidence for Q. There has never been any evidence from Q. There are no extant copies or fragments of Q, nor did any of the ECFs ever refer to or quoted from Q. Q is merely an invention from those that deny the inspiration of scripture.

Then you have to explain the copying that went on with Matthew and Luke. There are two instances where their words can be traced back to Mark - of which we do have copies. But both Matthew and Luke also agree with each other on other aspects which indicates that where they agree they were copying of some other document. That document is called Q = quell = source. There is no extant record of that document.

But we do not have any records of the original Gospels. The best we can trace back to is extant copies dating from 200 AD.

But none of this address my OP. If Paul had written earlier that the gospels writers and those writers had copies of other texts in front of them as they wrote, how come they had no copies of Paul's letters?
 
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wayseer

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If I remember correctly,didn't you say Paul did not write Ephesians,on another thread?

Yes - quite possibly. Paul did not write all the letters attributed to him by the Church. These are generally accepted as having been written by Paul -

Romans
First Corinthians
Second Corinthians
Galatians
Philippians
First Thessalonians
Philemon
 
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wayseer

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From what I've read, this is not fact, but what many scholars accept.

Indeed - and until there is some change in that consensus I am will to go treat that as fact.

IMO, he had influence on Luke and Mark, as did Peter and the others that saw Jesus.

How? That is the question - how did Paul influence the gospels?

Matthew, being an eye witness

It Matthew and Luke were written in the late 70s AD then they would not have been an eye witness to the life of Jesus.

Also, their main influence was the Holy Spirit, not man.

I do not subscribe to the idea that the HS 'pushed the pen'.

Paul was not an eye witness of the life of Jesus, so why would he influence the Gospel writers in what Jesus said and did before the resurrection.

Indeed. Although Paul was a contemporary of Jesus it appears neither met each other. But neither were the authors of the Gospels any closer to the action.

What reason would Paul's letters have with writing the Gospels? He was called to deliver the message to the Gentiles while the Gospels were about about Jesus' life among the Jews.

Now you might be on to something.

We know that the author of Matthew orientated his Gospel towards the Jews - the imagery used is all Jewish. Luke does not seem to have the same bias - more one of accommodating while John, writing at the end of the 1st century, had an even more radical approach to his narrative.

Clearly the Gospel writers had a different audience in mind as they wrote as they addressed particular issue pertinent to the social milieu with which each of these audiences were familiar.

But that still does not satisfactorily explain the 'absence' of some Pauline influence. After all, it is the theology of Paul, and not the narratives of the Gospels, that form the basis of the Christian Church.
 
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Hentenza

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Then you have to explain the copying that went on with Matthew and Luke. There are two instances where their words can be traced back to Mark - of which we do have copies. But both Matthew and Luke also agree with each other on other aspects which indicates that where they agree they were copying of some other document. That document is called Q = quell = source. There is no extant record of that document.

All 3 synoptic gospels have similar narratives. It is entirely possible that both Luke and Matthew read Mark prior to their writings. Scholarship does agree that Mark was most likely the earliest book of the NT. Q is still just a theory without evidence.

But we do not have any records of the original Gospels. The best we can trace back to is extant copies dating from 200 AD.

Yep.

But none of this address my OP. If Paul had written earlier that the gospels writers and those writers had copies of other texts in front of them as they wrote, how come they had no copies of Paul's letters?

What makes you think that they didn't have copies (or at least read) of all or some of Paul's letters?
 
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wayseer

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The Apostles accepted Paul as an Apostle (Galatians 2:9), but they compiled their gospels separately from the letters of Paul, since why would they base their accounts on someone who wasn't an eyewitness?

We now know that the authors of the Gospels were not the companions of Jesus as the Church has led us to believe.

The extended quotes you include in your post are highly speculative and generally recognised as unreliable. For instance MARK is not Mark, but a text known as Secret Mark.
 
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Hentenza

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We now know that the authors of the Gospels were not the companions of Jesus as the Church has led us to believe.

The extended quotes you include in your post are highly speculative and generally recognised as unreliable. For instance MARK is not Mark, but a text known as Secret Mark.

You are joking right?:sigh:
 
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