Patriarch Bartholomew - slander?

[Ariadne_GR]

Good detective work.

Unfortunately that is not the only site stating that information. A simple google search would show there are a large number of sites stating that same information, one even a book titled "Conversations with Ecunemical Patriarch Bartholomew I by Olivier Clement. The relevant page comes up in the Google books result and can be easily read. I will not bother to post it here, I see all have their blinders up to ensure they don't see anything that could be deemed controversial.

 

[Anhelyna]

Ariadne you stated

I will not bother to post it here, I see all have their blinders up to ensure they don't see anything that could be deemed controversial.

Since you have made that comment in public I think you should enlarge upon it and explain exactly what you mean.

I am not intending to debate with you [ strictly speaking I may not ] but I really would like to hear your reasons for saying that.

 

[Ariadne_GR]

I PM'd you Anhelyna.

 

[MariaRegina]

Unfortunately that is not the only site stating that information. A simple google search would show there are a large number of sites stating that same information, one even a book titled "Conversations with Ecunemical Patriarch Bartholomew I by Olivier Clement. The relevant page comes up in the Google books result and can be easily read. I will not bother to post it here, I see all have their blinders up to ensure they don't see anything that could be deemed controversial.

Not too long ago, I almost purchased that book through Amazon.com, but my friends said not to bother as it was not much in the way of spiritual reading. They were quite disappointed as the book has more of the EP's political, economical, and ecological (green) way of thinking with very little spiritual content comparatively speaking.

For my college papers on abortions in my health classes, etc., I purchased REAL Choices by Frederica Mathewes-Green. I consider this one of her best books. It is also available through Amazon.com (and honest, I do not work there). Thankfully, my college professors agreed with me that Frederica's work is very balanced.

 

[Anhelyna]

PM received and a partial answer made.

 

[MariaRegina]

When Bishop Tikhon of San Francisco and the West supported politicians who were pro-choice, those of us in the pews could not understand his thinking. He retired and was replaced by Bishop Benjamin. Apparently, Orthodox Bishops can support pro-choice politicians. Why the disconnect?

How on earth did the EP get away with the statement that he made that was published in the media and in that book, Conversations with Ecunemical Patriarch Bartholomew I by Olivier Clement?

Well, my Greek Orthodox Priest commented: the EP is not the Pope. Thank goodness.

 

[Ariadne_GR]

Sorry, what does the Pope have to do with it?

I will say though that thank goodness pro-life politicians will never be strong enough to get the law changed.

 

[buzuxi02]

When Bishop Tikhon of San Francisco and the West supported politicians who were pro-choice, those of us in the pews could not understand his thinking. He retired and was replaced by Bishop Benjamin. Apparently, Orthodox Bishops can support pro-choice politicians. Why the disconnect?

How on earth did the EP get away with the statement that he made that was published in the media and in that book, Conversations with Ecunemical Patriarch Bartholomew I by Olivier Clement?

Well, my Greek Orthodox Priest commented: the EP is not the Pope. Thank goodness.

Maria, what do you mean they were supporting pro-choice politicians? They endorsed certain candidates? I dont ever recall a public endorsement of any political candidate by a priest or bishop.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Sorry, what does the Pope have to do with it?

I will say though that thank goodness pro-life politicians will never be strong enough to get the law changed.

well, if pro choicers were strong enough to change the law in the first place, the pro life movement can become strong enough to make the murder of the unborn illegal. and in the states, the pro life movement is gaining ground.

never say never

 

[Dorothea]

For my college papers on abortions in my health classes, etc., I purchased REAL Choices by Frederica Mathewes-Green. I consider this one of her best books. It is also available through Amazon.com (and honest, I do not work there). Thankfully, my college professors agreed with me that Frederica's work is very balanced.

I've read that book. It was excellent and the accounts of the women were quite compelling and moving. Many times it brought me to tears.

 

[Dorothea]

Maria, what do you mean they were supporting pro-choice politicians? They endorsed certain candidates? I dont ever recall a public endorsement of any political candidate by a priest or bishop.

Bishops can't even vote.

 

[choirfiend]

Ariadne,

Do you not believe that life begins when a previously un-alive cell becomes genetically distinct from either its father or mother and begins the path of development and growth that eventually ends with the death of our physical bodies? If not, why not?

 

[MariaRegina]

Bishops can't even vote.

Really? While it is true that clerics are not to hold public office (except in Russia it seems), I did not know that bishops could not vote. Does that apply to priests and deacons too? Are clerics also exempt from jury duty? I doubt that the City and County of Los Angeles would have given Bishop Tikhon that exemption. Being over 70, he can now opt out of jury duty for health reasons.

The now retired Bishop Tikhon of San Francisco acted like he did vote. And at every opportunity, like the 40th anniversary of our parish, he would crack democratic jokes and would make comments that made his choice of candidates known. In addition, his online postings endorsed many democratic candidates who were known for their pro-choice opinions and activities.

 

[Ariadne_GR]

well, if pro choicers were strong enough to change the law in the first place, the pro life movement can become strong enough to make the murder of the unborn illegal. and in the states, the pro life movement is gaining ground.

never say never

Thankfully that stuff simply does not happen in Australia. I won't speak for what will happen in America. Though you'd think people would be worried about the amount of backyard, unsafe abortions that would then take place if the prolife movement did gain ground. I won't comment on the murder of the legal term "murder".

Ariadne,

Do you not believe that life begins when a previously un-alive cell becomes genetically distinct from either its father or mother and begins the path of development and growth that eventually ends with the death of our physical bodies? If not, why not?

It is not my place to tell another woman what is best for HER life. I'm not her, I have not walked in her shoes. I'm not arrogant enough to think I know what is best for another person. That is up for her to decide.

 

[choirfiend]

It's not only about the mother. It is about the child. You have only spoken about the mother as if the child does not exist. Keeping a child may not be the best option for the woman, but killing it in the womb is not doing a kindness to her.

 

[choirfiend]

When we talk about arrogantly deciding what is best for another person, or imposing on someone's "rights," how do we not recognize that the child (who may be a woman) has a basic right to life and that killing her is denying HER rights?

 

[Dorothea]

The problem with that argument that "It's MY body," is that it truly ISN'T. It's God's, and the baby in the woman's body is God's, not really hers. It's an individual soul.

 

[MariaRegina]

The problem with that argument that "It's MY body," is that it truly ISN'T. It's God's, and the baby in the woman's body is God's, not really hers. It's an individual soul.

And in marriage, we no longer "own" our bodies, but we have become one body. And in the Holy Church, don't we become part of the one Mystical Body of Christ through our Holy Baptism, Holy Chrismation, and Holy Communion?

We belong to Christ.

 

[gracefullamb]

When we talk about arrogantly deciding what is best for another person, or imposing on someone's "rights," how do we not recognize that the child (who may be a woman) has a basic right to life and that killing her is denying HER rights?

I am in no way advocating abortion with this post, I am against it. Our society considers it right to murder a baby in the womb because the baby cannot survive until a certain point outside the womb. That allows them to argue it is not really life yet since they cannot survive outside the womb. Without that redefining of life it is a whole lot harder to swallow the "woman's right to choose" line because it is two human beings not one human being and a mass of cells discussed.

This is also kind of the point of medical ethicists when they ask, "if it is okay to kill a baby in the womb because it cannot survive outside the womb yet, why is it not okay to kill a baby outside the womb since they cannot survive without the care of a adult?" If it is life than it is life regardless of survival dependency on another human being.

 

[MariaRegina]

Worse, people associated with the Nazi-butcher margaret sanger's planned parenthood associate an unborn child with a cancerous tumor. Then they say that you can poison (artificial birth control and/or the abortion pill), cut (dismembering through vacuum suctioning) or burn (saline abortion) that tumor. Often these procedures are done without any pain relievers, and so the victims of abortion are not only the innocent children but also the mothers who are duped into the abortuary.