Patriarch Bartholomew - slander?

[MariaRegina]

There is this statement from NFTU:

Ecumenical Patriarch Visits Pope | NFTU

Bartholomew (Archontonis), who is noted for his notorious pro-abortion and pro-synchrotistic views ...

I have never heard that Bartholomew is pro-abortion.

Sheesh.

I will not participate in the so-called "news" blog at NFTU.
I hope there is a brave soul who will rebuke them for any lies and slander that they have committed.

 

[Ariadne_GR]

I found this:

Here is a direct quotation from a July 20, 1990, article, “SF Shows Off Its Ecumenical Spirit,” in the San Francisco Chronicle. Metropolitan Bartholomais of Chalcedon is the current Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew.

Asked the Orthodox church’s position on abortion, Bartholomais described a stand more liberal than that of the Roman Catholic Church, which condemns abortion in all cases and whose clergy have, in some cities, excommunicated leading pro-choice Catholics.
Although the Orthodox church believes the soul enters the body at conception and, ”generally speaking, respects human life and the continuation of pregnancy,” Bartholomais said, the church also ”respects the liberty and freedom of all human persons and all Christian couples.”
”We are not allowed to enter the bedrooms of the Christian couples,” he said. ”We cannot generalize. There are many reasons for a couple to go toward abortion.”
​

 

[Ariadne_GR]

Sorry for the DP I could not get my post to differentiate from the quoted section in the last one.

Lies and slander? Just because someone may have said something that leans on the side of choice in the Orthodox church? Good on him for being pro-choice if what is quoted is true, even though it does say it is from 1990.

 

[choirfiend]

I'm sure the meaning there was misunderstood. There are a few things that are not optional; defending life is something the Church has never wavered on. Pro-choice is incompatible with following Orthodox teachings.

 

[Ariadne_GR]

I'm sure the meaning there was misunderstood. There are a few things that are not optional; defending life is something the Church has never wavered on. Pro-choice is incompatible with following Orthodox teachings.

That's the only explanation clearly. People cannot possibly be Christian and pro-choice, that would mean they think outside the minute square that you live in. Shocking!

 

[Dorothea]

There is this statement from NFTU:

Ecumenical Patriarch Visits Pope | NFTU



I have never heard that Bartholomew is pro-abortion.

Sheesh.

I will not participate in the so-called "news" blog at NFTU.
I hope there is a brave soul who will rebuke them for any lies and slander that they have committed.

It's slanderous, imo. Why would we have a Patriarch that would teach that abortion was all right when the Church has been against it from the beginning.

"A woman who deliberately destroys a fetus is answerable for murder. And any fine distinction between its being completely formed or unformed is not admissable among us." ~ St. Basil the Great.

From goarch:

Two representative statements, one on abortion and another on homosexuality, from the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of North and South America follow. They are from the Twenty-Third Clergy-Laity Congress held in Philadelphia in 1976. The Orthodox Church has a definite, formal and intended attitude toward abortion. It condemns all procedures purporting to abort the embryo or fetus, whether by surgical or chemical means. The Orthodox Church brands abortion as murder; that is, as a premeditated termination of the life of a human being. The only time the Orthodox Church will reluctantly acquiesce to abortion is when the preponderance of medical opinion determines that unless the embryo or fetus is aborted, the mother will die. Decisions of the Supreme Court and State legislatures by which abortion, with or without restrictions, is allowed should be viewed by practicing Christians as an affront to their beliefs in the sanctity of life.

The Stand of the Orthodox Church on Controversial Issues — Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America

 

[ArmyMatt]

It's slanderous, imo. Why would we have a Patriarch that would teach that abortion was all right when the Church has been against it from the beginning.

"A woman who deliberately destroys a fetus is answerable for murder. And any fine distinction between its being completely formed or unformed is not admissable among us." ~ St. Basil the Great.

From goarch:

Two representative statements, one on abortion and another on homosexuality, from the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of North and South America follow. They are from the Twenty-Third Clergy-Laity Congress held in Philadelphia in 1976. The Orthodox Church has a definite, formal and intended attitude toward abortion. It condemns all procedures purporting to abort the embryo or fetus, whether by surgical or chemical means. The Orthodox Church brands abortion as murder; that is, as a premeditated termination of the life of a human being. The only time the Orthodox Church will reluctantly acquiesce to abortion is when the preponderance of medical opinion determines that unless the embryo or fetus is aborted, the mother will die. Decisions of the Supreme Court and State legislatures by which abortion, with or without restrictions, is allowed should be viewed by practicing Christians as an affront to their beliefs in the sanctity of life.

The Stand of the Orthodox Church on Controversial Issues — Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America

I can't see any heirarch being pro choice and still be a heirarch after over 20 years. abortion is against the Church, period.

 

[choirfiend]

That's the only explanation clearly. People cannot possibly be Christian and pro-choice, that would mean they think outside the minute square that you live in. Shocking!

People cannot be pro-choice and follow Orthodox Christianity. If they are pro-choice, they are against the Church in that aspect. Life begins at conception.

This is a bit long, at 48 pages, but is a reasonable summary of many of the ancient and modern texts against abortion, and also of processing through modern arguments of pro-abortion trends. I especially appreciate the quotes on the subject of when someone is a person. It says that, given our teaching on becoming more and more "a person" through our eternal becoming-likeness in God, no human can even truly claim full personhood since we are ever growing more Christ-like. So, you cannot say there is a point at which a human is a person and a point before at which they are not. We are continuously growing to be more and more a person, from conception onward.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CB4QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.oclife.org%2Ffiles%2Farticles%2FABORTION_OIKONOMIA.wd6.pdf&ei=SaCCUL3CJomo0AGah4DoCw&usg=AFQjCNEQB1S0t8JSBHgENeILVc0D_zii6A&sig2=b1gGKiK9p87BiC7-KwmSzw

 

[seekingfreedom]

I am not trying to present controversy here. I love the Orthodox Church and have been attending Divine Liturgy for a long time now and seeking God's direction.(I feel that I have to preface what I say because of my catholic icon). I will defend both churches if put in a corner. But from the research I have done, these statements seem to be true.

I can't judge the spirit in which it was said, but I believe that the author of the article that I cited below, gives a good explanation of why the Patriarch should have expounded more on his statement. He is the Patriarch after all and what he says has ramifications for the Church, the lay people, our youth. No, you can't judge the person who has an abortion, but you can judge the act and the effect it has on the unborn. There are a lot of holes in the Patriarch's statement that I am glad that Mr. Couretas addressed, as well as others have.
A patriarch who 'generally speaking, respects human life' - AOI Observer

 

[Ariadne_GR]

People cannot be pro-choice and follow Orthodox Christianity. If they are pro-choice, they are against the Church in that aspect. Life begins at conception.

This is a bit long, at 48 pages, but is a reasonable summary of many of the ancient and modern texts against abortion, and also of processing through modern arguments of pro-abortion trends. I especially appreciate the quotes on the subject of when someone is a person. It says that, given our teaching on becoming more and more "a person" through our eternal becoming-likeness in God, no human can even truly claim full personhood since we are ever growing more Christ-like. So, you cannot say there is a point at which a human is a person and a point before at which they are not. We are continuously growing to be more and more a person, from conception onward.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...HgENeILVc0D_zii6A&sig2=b1gGKiK9p87BiC7-KwmSzw

Then let them be against the church in that aspect, God gave free will for a reason. Fortunately the law will not change and women will still have the option to do what is best for them. Not best for their Church and people who are strangers to them, but for themselves.

I am not trying to present controversy here. I love the Orthodox Church and have been attending Divine Liturgy for a long time now and seeking God's direction.(I feel that I have to preface what I say because of my catholic icon). I will defend both churches if put in a corner. But from the research I have done, these statements seem to be true.

I can't judge the spirit in which it was said, but I believe that the author of the article that I cited below, gives a good explanation of why the Patriarch should have expounded more on his statement. He is the Patriarch after all and what he says has ramifications for the Church, the lay people, our youth. No, you can't judge the person who has an abortion, but you can judge the act and the effect it has on the unborn. There are a lot of holes in the Patriarch's statement that I am glad that Mr. Couretas addressed, as well as others have.
A patriarch who 'generally speaking, respects human life' - AOI Observer

I see the quote there again, so obviously he did say it. It can't be lies or slander if it is the truth.

 

[Dorothea]

.

 

[bibledoctor]

I don't have any comments or anything specific for any patriarch,metropolitan,or bishop.

 

[Anhelyna]

Umm - just spotted this and the Site mentioned has raised my eyebrows more than somewhat . So , being me I went and did a bit of looking round the Site and found mentions of 'True Orthodoxy' and then spotted this page

Editorial: Your Editor Accused of Heresy on the “Orthodox-Tradition” Yahoo Group | NFTU

Hmmmm . I do NOT like the tone of the Article to which Maria Regina posted , and having come across the Editor of the Post/comment/Article to which I linked, I would honestly take anything published here with a very large pinch of salt .

Now you all know how I do support Orthodoxy - even though I am not Orthodox - but to me the mention of one name there [ I"m not mentioning any names deliberately ] was a HUGE red flag .

My own strong feeling is that this has been raised by some 'Old Calendarists' putting forward their own very strongly held views - and these folk if I am correct are non-canonical.

If I have spoken out of turn - please forgive my interference .

 

[Anhelyna]

Look what I have just found on the section 'About NTFU '

Home › About NFTU
About NFTU
NFTU (Notes From the Underground) is a volunteer online news reporting service which, since 2004, has dealt with news and information about True (Traditional) Orthodox jurisdictions throughout the world as well as reporting on Ecumenism, the most prevalent and dangerous condemned heresy of the 20th century.

Originally started in 2004 as a theoretical framework for the ROAC’s official web site in America, it was eventually discarded for other designs. However, the templates found a new use: they were modified to form an unofficial ROAC news and information site with assistance and contributions from a number of writers and lay members of ROAC.

In 2006, the site was reworked to become a general True Orthodox news site. NFTU has since grown to a readership approaching 500,000 a year as well as throughout various forms of social media. In 2010, NFTU began live-call in programs on BlogTalkRadio and in 2012, introduced a forum to discuss matters relating to True Orthodoxy. With a cross-jurisdictional membership we hope to continue to serve the needs of the True Orthodox community for years to come.

Now really folk - are you prepared to believe everything that comes from them ?

 

[choirfiend]

Nope! Which is why I said that I was sure there was a mistaken something happening here. No Orthodox can be pro abortion and be following the unanimous and consistent 2000 year testimony of the Church on the sacred and unique personhood of each child, created in the image of God, so one certainly wouldn't expect a bishop to be so.

 

[Anhelyna]

This is why I went fishing - I just couldn't see this being true.

I really must have a nasty suspicious mind as I check whenever possible.

 

[ArmyMatt]

yeah, anytime you see True or Genuine in front of Orthodoxy, red flags abound. good catch Anhelyna

 

[-Kyriaki-]

You're not overstepping in any way Anhelyna Good catch!

 

[choirfiend]

I dont think you have any boundary to step across, Anhelyna. You're one of us here at TAW.

 

[Anhelyna]

Thanks