Part of the Solution

dlamberth

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What are your thoughts about the "part of the solution" pointed towards in this quote I attained from Matthew Fox.

“At this critical time in human history, when the earth is being ravaged by the violence of war, poverty, sexism, homophobia, and eco-destruction, we need to gather those who offer a future that is one of compassion, creativity, and justice to speak their conscience as never before. Religion and Spirituality ought to be part of the solution, not the problem.”
 
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awitch

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I think Mr. Fox's expectations are too high. The major religions have had many centuries to pull it together and they have failed spectacularly. Instead, in the modern age, religion remains a driving force force for violence, war, sexism, homophobia, and anti-intellectualism. Given the inflexible nature of the major religions, I see little chance of change, so I think our hope lies with the secularists.
 
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Zoness

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I agree that it should be part of the solution but I don't agree that it is part of the solution, just based on what I've seen in my lifetime.

I wish my religion could be a bigger agent for change but it is so highly individualistic so that really that falls on me to fulfill that role.

I agree with awitch about this issue (and honestly, about most things): my religion doesn't provide an elaborate framework for solving the world's ills because its paired down to relatively few people in its size and scale. A great amount of burden is placed on me personally to be an agent of change in the world. I'm involved in a very small way in the scope of things but I still think it is important to be involved. My religion and beliefs of the non-physical world have little bearing on the state of the physical world so I put them aside to come up with solutions that might work and take action on things I believe in.

Religion can be alright but frankly, secularism has generally been a good bet in the western ethos so far. I think I am going to keep holding with them, especially since secularism doesn't hold open hostility for my beliefs which allows me to operate rather freely in a political sense.
 
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Quid est Veritas?

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People forget that Secularism has just as much blood on its hands in this regard.

Case in point being Communists, Nazis, Segregation, Baathism etc. Often in the name of compassion or justice, we see unspeakable acts committed. To address income inequality we saw Communist purges, man-made famines, gulags, genocides in Rwanda etc. just to name a few.

The problem is the innate Evil of man. Anything we can get our hands on will be used to individual advantage or preference regardless of the underlying good premise it had.
So, I frankly don't think this problem will ever be solved in any meaningful way and when it comes to Secular systems, then I am even more wary. The thing is that they don't have a metaphysical or universal morality as such, so End justifies the Means and Utilitarian solutions are often employed - which by the nature of things only worsens the evils of the world.

The solution of the ills of the world lies in individuals and therefore is probably insoluble.
 
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Robban

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What are your thoughts about the "part of the solution" pointed towards in this quote I attained from Matthew Fox.

“At this critical time in human history, when the earth is being ravaged by the violence of war, poverty, sexism, homophobia, and eco-destruction, we need to gather those who offer a future that is one of compassion, creativity, and justice to speak their conscience as never before. Religion and Spirituality ought to be part of the solution, not the problem.”

"Looking at the World as a whole can be too much to bear, at least to dwell on it can take all the energy one has, often resulting in illness."

"So, what did you do about it?"

"I contacted head office"

"And?"

"I told them we needed a miracle"

"What did they say?"

"They said, we are out of collective miracles for the time being,
so I asked them what they had on offer"

"And what did they say?"

"We can open your eyes for you"

"And did they"

"Well, you could say that I suppose."

"What do you mean?"

"They gave me a mirror"
 
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awitch

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People forget that Secularism has just as much blood on its hands in this regard.

Case in point being Communists, Nazis, Segregation, Baathism etc. Often in the name of compassion or justice, we see unspeakable acts committed. To address income inequality we saw Communist purges, man-made famines, gulags, genocides in Rwanda etc. just to name a few.

But these were tyrannical dictatorships. When you want exclusive control the first two things you do is eliminate your competition and get followers by exploiting their fears. So their modus operandi was no different than the theocrats, they just didn't have a book of scripture to hide behind.

I'm not saying that if you ditch religion, everything will be coming up daisers (that's my new favorite expression). But imagine a democratic republic where instead of the leaders pandering to people with ultra fragile religious beliefs that fly in the face of the natural world, we legislate based on reason, sound science, and equality.

The problem is the innate Evil of man.

This thinking is part of the problem. It's wrong, it's defeatist, and when applied in the real world it usually becomes, "everyone who thinks, believes or behaves differently than me is more evil" and that's what fosters division.

We hear it all the time. Why worry about climate change and natural disasters when God controls the weather? If a hurricane kills a bunch of people they probably deserved it for their sinful lifestyles, right?

People are not innately evil, but they aren't innately good either. We have to recognize that each of us has the potential for both. Which way we go is based on the decisions we make. And we can make better decisions with a good education and understanding of the situation, not with an inflexible ideology.
 
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juvenissun

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What are your thoughts about the "part of the solution" pointed towards in this quote I attained from Matthew Fox.

“At this critical time in human history, when the earth is being ravaged by the violence of war, poverty, sexism, homophobia, and eco-destruction, we need to gather those who offer a future that is one of compassion, creativity, and justice to speak their conscience as never before. Religion and Spirituality ought to be part of the solution, not the problem.”

The whole paragraph says nothing. Delete this paragraph, nothing is lost.
 
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Noxot

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yeah because in the USA they are totally not bombing little children and making wars in the name of the good. since we can vote our 'leaders' don't lie to us at all... they totally don't say one thing and then do the opposite.

democracy is still light years away from what humans can be.

will act violently for.jpg


governments have tired and failed. we need more people to stop accepting lower forms of being.
 
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Quid est Veritas?

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But these were tyrannical dictatorships. When you want exclusive control the first two things you do is eliminate your competition and get followers by exploiting their fears. So their modus operandi was no different than the theocrats, they just didn't have a book of scripture to hide behind.

I'm not saying that if you ditch religion, everything will be coming up daisers (that's my new favorite expression). But imagine a democratic republic where instead of the leaders pandering to people with ultra fragile religious beliefs that fly in the face of the natural world, we legislate based on reason, sound science, and equality.



This thinking is part of the problem. It's wrong, it's defeatist, and when applied in the real world it usually becomes, "everyone who thinks, believes or behaves differently than me is more evil" and that's what fosters division.

We hear it all the time. Why worry about climate change and natural disasters when God controls the weather? If a hurricane kills a bunch of people they probably deserved it for their sinful lifestyles, right?

People are not innately evil, but they aren't innately good either. We have to recognize that each of us has the potential for both. Which way we go is based on the decisions we make. And we can make better decisions with a good education and understanding of the situation, not with an inflexible ideology.
The fact is that our only examples of fully secular states are not paragons of virtue. They tend to be totalitarian or utilitarian in the extreme. If we base it on our examples, we cannot say secularism would in any way be better than religious peoples.

Besides, even democracies when acting in secular interests have acted appallingly. For instance the Trail of Tears which expelled the largely converted five civilised tribes, the Tuskegee Syphilis trials, the Welsh hypertension trial, stopping treatment of radiation victims for data after Hiroshima and Nagasaki, British concentration camps in the Boer war etc.

As to man being evil - if you look at the historical track record of man, I do not see how any other conclusion could be made. Even secular naturalistic materialism with emphasis on selfish genes, with any altruistic tendencies being written off as secondary fitness, concurs on this point.

I don't think man cannot be good, but I do think that man tends to evil. If left to their own devices, evil would be far more prevalent, but culture, religion etc. intervene.
It is the lesson of Golding's Lord of the Flies, where the most regimented and upright group, the choirboys, degenerates to the most savage.

The problem with secularism is its flexibility on morals. That is how whole classes of citizens can become cockroaches or untermenschen or kulaks and be liquidated for the greater good, essentially as a moral act. Its how End justifies the Means can be used to defend abhorrent acts like experimenting on minorities and soldiers or how ideas like classless societies or in the name of income inequality, we can see the suppression of whole groups in formerly democratic states.

Besides, no Democracy will ever legislate on Reason, sound Science and Equality. Democracies are popularity contests and the average human is neither a scientist nor very reasonable. Most pandering for instance in the US today has nothing whatsoever to do with religious beliefs, but secular concerns. For if you value the opinion of the village idiot as the same as Aristotle's, then you would not necessarily always be heading in the right direction.
Perhaps a Platonic Philosopher-King would work better, but this of course has never existed and even Plato's attempts to create one were doomed to failure.
 
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awitch

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The problem with secularism is its flexibility on morals.

Life is dynamic. It's ridiculous to think there is only 1 code of rules to live by for the rest of time, especially when that code was written down in a far more primitive time. If our morals were static, slavery would still be a thing, for example.

Besides, no Democracy will ever legislate on Reason, sound Science and Equality.

Not while people are uneducated and theocrats try to legislate their unfounded beliefs.
All the "thoughts and prayers" are doing nothing.
 
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MehGuy

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The solution of the ills of the world lies in individuals and therefore is probably insoluble.

I agree with your post for the most part.

Especially when things like feminism and similar social justice groups and the like can easily turn toxic, even under secular circles with people who prize themselves with being rational and level headed.
 
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“At this critical time in human history, when the earth is being ravaged by the violence of war, poverty, sexism, homophobia, and eco-destruction, we need to gather those who offer a future that is one of compassion, creativity, and justice to speak their conscience as never before.
This is a bit dramatic. All of the issues that he lists (except for eco-destruction) are hurting a smaller percentage of humanity than ever before.
 
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Arthra

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Recognizing that this world "the earth is being ravaged by the violence of war, poverty, sexism, homophobia, and eco-destruction, we need to gather those who offer a future that is one of compassion, creativity, and justice to speak their conscience as never before." Is a beginning. You cannot begin to reform a man who does not recognize his problems..so begin associating with those groups, associations who are making a difference... Give them your support and offer to join in their support. Many interfaith groups are recognizing this situation and are uniting to support the causes that can make a difference. The United Nations while imperfect in some ways is also a force for reconciling good and enforcing just causes.
 
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Job8

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The United Nations while imperfect in some ways is also a force for reconciling good and enforcing just causes.
That's what they would like people to believe. The United Nations is one of the most corrupt and useless organizations to come into existence. They have NEVER resolved any issues, and if the UN were dissolved tomorrow, the world would be a better place. Their present agenda is to destroy nationalism, democracy, freedom, and world economies.
 
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