Orthodoxy and small town America

[dzheremi]

It is sometimes difficult to be Orthodox in certain parts of America because of this situation, yes. I had to move 1,200 miles from my home area to regularly attend a Coptic Orthodox Church, and still we are the only OO church in the state (that I know of), and the next closest church is about 6-7 hours away by car. It is generally better for EO, though. You guys are spoiled even if it doesn't seem like it.

You might want to look for smaller communities in places without established churches. I don't know if the EO do this, but for Coptic Orthodox there are also "communities" listed on diocese websites, meaning places where there is an established population of Orthodox Christians that are nonetheless not big enough/rich enough to have their own dedicated church and priest. Our COC here in Albuquerque, St. Bishoy, is one such church in our diocese -- we have our own property (in an industrial office building, if you can believe it) as of about two years ago, but are still served by priests who have to be flown in from Arizona. It's a tough situation, but certainly better than nothing. Maybe the EO in your area have something similar? It's worth looking into, anyway.

 

[Knee V]

There is a lot of open space in the US South. We need more monasteries.

 

[CelticRebel]

It is sometimes difficult to be Orthodox in certain parts of America because of this situation, yes. I had to move 1,200 miles from my home area to regularly attend a Coptic Orthodox Church, and still we are the only OO church in the state (that I know of), and the next closest church is about 6-7 hours away by car. It is generally better for EO, though. You guys are spoiled even if it doesn't seem like it.

You might want to look for smaller communities in places without established churches. I don't know if the EO do this, but for Coptic Orthodox there are also "communities" listed on diocese websites, meaning places where there is an established population of Orthodox Christians that are nonetheless not big enough/rich enough to have their own dedicated church and priest. Our COC here in Albuquerque, St. Bishoy, is one such church in our diocese -- we have our own property (in an industrial office building, if you can believe it) as of about two years ago, but are still served by priests who have to be flown in from Arizona. It's a tough situation, but certainly better than nothing. Maybe the EO in your area have something similar? It's worth looking into, anyway.

Thank you for your kind and helpful post. It makes me sad about my last response to you in the "Ever-Virgin" thread.

 

[CelticRebel]

lack of evangelism and a lack of a church planting program. Also, too much emphasis on the intellectual aspects of Orthodoxy, attracting mainly intellectually leaning people rather than people like farmers, factory workers, coal miners, etc.

That's too bad.

 

[E.C.]

lack of evangelism and a lack of a church planting program. Also, too much emphasis on the intellectual aspects of Orthodoxy, attracting mainly intellectually leaning people rather than people like farmers, factory workers, coal miners, etc.

I think that one of the best tools for evangelism would be Agape Vespers. In the Jackson, MS area there were three churches; one OCA, one Greek, one Antiochian; and every year they celebrated Agape Vespers together on a hosting rotation with a huge Southern style BBQ afterward. Honestly, I think that this system is part of why Orthodoxy is growing in that area because it blends the Orthodox worship with the Southern BBQ.

Probably the best thing for these churches to do would be to invite non-Orthodox to Agape Vespers when they miss Easter
"Missed Easter? No problem! Praise Jesus with us!" One hour of Agape Vespers with a BBQ later and you'll have enough people for a new parish or two in no time.

There is a lot of open space in the US South. We need more monasteries.

Agreed!

 

[~Anastasia~]

I think too it depends on what area of the South.

I agree that more monasteries would be a blessing!

I live in a small town along the Gulf coast, and for my location, there are actually a surprising number of parishes. There is a Greek and an Antiochian just under an hour away. There are 3 more Greek Churches (4 if you count a historical one that has services once a month) within an hour and a half, and 2 or 3 more that are 2 to 2-1/2 hours away. There is even a monastery and a few more Churches within 3-1/2 hours. Those are some miles, because it's all interstate, and only the two closest are really feasible to attend regularly, but I've visited several of the others. They are all spread along the coast though, so inland there really isn't anything I'm aware of. Only the cities on my routes up that way have Churches.

But more monasteries/missions would be a blessing!

Everyone else here has given good advice. Talk to the priests nearest you. Sometimes it happens that there are interested families in an area, and a priest travels to them once or twice a month. Ride-sharing can be great. So much of Orthodoxy is on the community aspect and it could give you extra one-on-one time to talk to others. Many priests will do a lot of work with inquirers via phone or email if they can only come occasionally. There are reader services the priest can help you do on your own. There may be many options you don't know until you speak to a priest.

Prayers for you!

 

[GregConstantine]

"I think that one of the best tools for evangelism would be Agape Vespers. In the Jackson, MS area there were three churches; one OCA, one Greek, one Antiochian; and every year they celebrated Agape Vespers together on a hosting rotation with a huge Southern style BBQ afterward. Honestly, I think that this system is part of why Orthodoxy is growing in that area because it blends the Orthodox worship with the Southern BBQ."

That sounds like a great idea. Here in Baltimore, we should do a steam crab and Maryland fried chicken feast after agape vespers.

 

[GregConstantine]

BTW I just remembered something, the Antiochians have started a new parish in Easton Md, which is on the MD Eastern shore, and Easton is in a rural area. Perhaps them doing a crab/fried chicken feast would be a better fit.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I think that one of the best tools for evangelism would be Agape Vespers. In the Jackson, MS area there were three churches; one OCA, one Greek, one Antiochian; and every year they celebrated Agape Vespers together on a hosting rotation with a huge Southern style BBQ afterward. Honestly, I think that this system is part of why Orthodoxy is growing in that area because it blends the Orthodox worship with the Southern BBQ.

Probably the best thing for these churches to do would be to invite non-Orthodox to Agape Vespers when they miss Easter
"Missed Easter? No problem! Praise Jesus with us!" One hour of Agape Vespers with a BBQ later and you'll have enough people for a new parish or two in no time.

amen to that. that is great because it shows that Orthodoxy can be uniquely American, while still being Orthodoxy. we can baptize the culture. it's like at St Vlad's Ed Day one year when I went, they had pulled pork in the ethnic food tend.

 

[Mary of Bethany]

lack of evangelism and a lack of a church planting program. Also, too much emphasis on the intellectual aspects of Orthodoxy, attracting mainly intellectually leaning people rather than people like farmers, factory workers, coal miners, etc.

Sorry, Greg, but I can't let that go without a response. I don't even understand why you would say such things.

In the first place, no one did more for evangelizing the South than Archbishop Dmitri of blessed memory. Yes, we have been without a Bishop for several years which has hurt, but things will pick up again when our new Bishop is named.

And your comment about "attracting mainly intellectually leaning people", yeah I guess that leaves all of us small town Southerners out.

Mary

 

[GregConstantine]

You misunderstood my comment. Please read again. But while there has been a moment or two here and there where we've done some evangelism, it still has been too few and far between, and it tends not to be sustained, but rather comes in short lived bursts.

Sorry Mary of Bethany, that's how I see it and many others see it as well. You shoudn't take it as some short of criticism torwards any work that Archbishop Dmitri or anyone else did.

The comment about intellectualism was at how it would seem that most people who convert are very well educated people who read their way into Orthodoxy. Nothing wrong with that, but there's many more people who do not come to the faith like that and they are being left out.

 

[GregConstantine]

"And your comment about "attracting mainly intellectually leaning people", yeah I guess that leaves all of us small town Southerners out."

That's my point! They shouldn't be but they are! Please read carefully. The OP is asking why Orthodoxy isn't in rural parts of America.

 

[Mary of Bethany]

"And your comment about "attracting mainly intellectually leaning people", yeah I guess that leaves all of us small town Southerners out."

That's my point! They shouldn't be but they are! Please read carefully. The OP is asking why Orthodoxy isn't in rural parts of America.

I did read the OP carefully.

I agree that we shouldn't be attracting mainly intellectually leaning people - I get your point. But I disagree that that is the case - or that that somehow leaves out the farmers, etc. As though people like that can't/don't grasp the faith if it's too intellectual. I now live in a small town and there is actually a small Orthodox parish here and it's full of small-town people that grew up around here, without Orthodoxy.

I would say that the South is actually more open to Orthodoxy than most think. Apb. Dmitri always said that Baptists make the best Orthodox.
He did a fantastic job of mission planting here, but there's a lot of ground to cover.

Mary

 

[~Anastasia~]

"And your comment about "attracting mainly intellectually leaning people", yeah I guess that leaves all of us small town Southerners out."

That's my point! They shouldn't be but they are! Please read carefully. The OP is asking why Orthodoxy isn't in rural parts of America.

I .... ummm .... think I see Mary's point. It is certainly possible to find intellectually leaning people in small Southern towns.

Though you do make a good point that the intellectual/theological aspect shouldn't be the ONLY point of attraction in Orthodoxy, and much is being missed there. That being said though, except a few who were "loved in" by the community, nearly everyone I know who converted has been initially introduced through theology.

 

[GregConstantine]

I never said nor implied that if one is a farmer, he/she cannot grasp things intellectually, only that what little evangelism we do, seems to be presented in a very intellectual manner and is geared mostly to that crowd, (intellectually leaning, urban people), therefore, only reaching a small number of people, therefore, a possible reason why we don't see many Orthodox in rural/small town America, therefore, answering the OP's question.

BTW, I am from a small town in upstate NY, so is most of my family, I do know something about what living in a small town is like and the dynamics of small town living.

And again my comments are not implying anything about Archbishop Dmitri and what he did in the Diocese of the South of the OCA.

 

[~Anastasia~]

I never said nor implied that if one is a farmer, he/she cannot grasp things intellectually, only that what little evangelism we do, seems to be presented in a very intellectual manner and is geared mostly to that crowd, (intellectually leaning, urban people), therefore, only reaching a small number of people, therefore, a possible reason why we don't see many Orthodox in rural/small town America, therefore, answering the OP's question.

I'm sure you didn't mean it that way. Peace to you, dear brother.

It was just easy to read it that way, so my apologies.

 

[anevins]

The issue with Orthodoxy in America is that is demographically dying. There are three causation reasons for this that I can see:

1. Orthodoxy is anti west, anti rational and anti modern.

2. Orthodoxy is a top down centralized structure of authoritarian rule power and control inside of a exclusive, closed, isolated, segregated and subjective system.

3. Ethnicity and culture first over Christ first.

In freedom of religion a church has to stand up on its own two Jesus feet and walk without any idolatrous props holding it up. Orthodoxy has fallen to the floor in America and cannot stand back up. What props it up in places like Russia and Greece does not prop it up here.

The foundation of Orthodoxy in America is self idolatrous and that foundation has now collapsed from under it causing the church to crash in on itself. The ultimate self idolatrous claim is, We are Gods only True Church, salvation and Christians.

The state of Orthodoxy in America is corrupt, failed, irrelevant, abusive, cultic, self centered, delusional and dying.

The Greek parish in my city of 200k is the only parish for 40 miles. It has been here for 60+ years and about 100 of Gods only true Christians show up on Sunday. In less than 60 years several churches with Sunday attendance into the thousands each have been established.

In the case of the Greek church it looks like to me that it came to America as an omission of Christ's commission. In other words it omitted Christ and relied on immigration, marriage and birth to grow. That only can work so far before it stops and becomes counter productive for a reasons caused by prideful idolatrous exclusiveness.

In every case I have seen with the Orthodox in America in their trying to stop the implosion of their church they use the very problem causing the implosion as the solution to the implosion only making the situation worse. Exclusiveness will only use its exclusive self as the solution to its exclusive problem and that simply will not work if you want to be an inclusive, open system and bottom up raise people up Freedom in Christ church.

Orthodoxy is not a bottom up raise you up and open system inclusive church and Jesus in the Gospels is. It is this simplistic, top down pushes down and closed isolates. That is not freedom in Christ. It is a John 8:31-59 like church with emphasis on John 8:42-44. It is that corrupt with a mask of Christ veneer covering what is really going on behind the mask.

Exclusiveness is the set up for self idolatry and self idolatry is the set up to turn a church into a cult in Christianity or a Christian cult. All cults are self idolatry over God and they replace God with their self idolatry and go systemic corrupt as a result. The ultimate authoritarian ruler of self idolatry is Satan and he wants to be God. Self idolatry is what got the evil one thrown out of heaven and it is what he used in the Garden as a strategy. Satan is a cult leader and Jesus confronted that in John 8:42-44.

The resulting consequences of the fall in the Garden are shame and death. A shame based church in a death spiral is Orthodoxy in America today. Once the evil one takes power and control rule over a church he turns it into his idolatrous character of self protection of his power and control by idolatry of his rule and he rules by shaming threat, coercion and intimidation.

One of the signs of a church in the last stage of death is how the people in it form a circular firing squad of blame, accusation and condemnation of those it believes are responsible and when everyone in the corrupt, cultic and dying church are responsible. This only accelerates the dying state of such a church and it proves that the solutions used to stop the implosion are what is causing the implosion.

Jesus did not come to us as church/state dictatorship or as a monastic who lives in an isolated compound, in a cave, in a tree or on a rock. There is no Biblical Gospel or NT basis for church/state authoritarianism or isolated monasticism.

Jesus + Nothing = The only Orthodox solution

Jesus + Something Else = Idolatry of the something corrupting the Orthodox

Western, rational, modernity freedom of religion is not based upon church/state authoritarian power and control in a closed system. It is open system competition among options and where there is competition there is freedom of choice and where there is freedom of choice there is comparison and where there is comparison people are not choosing Orthodoxy in America in enough numbers to stop its demographic implosion. The two largest jurisdictions are dying.

The Orthodox do not know how to stand up on two Jesus feet and walk without their props. They cannot compete in freedom in choice among options in competition. When you are exclusive you believe you are the comparison standard that determines the state of others in comparison to you and the Orthodox believe they are the church standard of comparison in their self centered delusional perspective of themselves in their closed isolation.

The corrupt, cultic and dying church is no comparison unless you are spiritually delusional believing a lie of deception. The deception is that the Orthodox are so exclusive in viewpoint of themselves in their Orthodox Minds it is impossible for them to believe the reasons why their church is dying in America and when those reason are what the foundation of their church is really based upon and it is not Christ alone.

The Orthodox in America have many difficult realities they are going to have face about themselves if they want to survive in America. What held them up from where they came from does not hold them up here. Denial of the real world Christ reality state of their church by exclusiveness will only insure the death of their church in America. I believe the pride, arrogance and self righteousness of the exclusive Orthodox will keep them from admitting the causation of their implosion and that means nothing is going to stop the implosion.

The consequences are a slow, ugly and painful self tortured church death and the Orthodox would rather die as a church than face the real causation of their corruption, failure, irrelevancy, abuse, cultism, delusion and dying state that has no solution other than the very problem itself as their only solution. Circular without solution and where all solutions take the Orthodox back to failed solution square one is their future in America.

Orthodox, welcome to bottom up and open system freedom of religion competition in comparison and choice America. Competition exposes and your church has been exposed for why and how it is failed in America.

Bottom up and open Jesus exposed what was top down and closed in the Gospels. Freedom exposes bondage. Your church is in systemic bondage and the only solution is corporate repentance and systemic bondage breaking. Your Patriarch's will not lead you through such a process for their being corrupt and so that is the future of your church. The corruption is going to continue to collapse your church and you are powerless by your idolatry of the corruption to stop it. Exclusive self idolatry that really cannot be wrong about itself will not repent or bondage break.

His Divine All Holiness the EP is neither divine or all holy and he cannot lead you out of corruption when he is corrupt. It is delusional to believe that such a man can.

Satan also has a delusional viewpoint of himself and he will turn you into his self delusion if you follow him as your God. Only Satan in his Satan Mind can be God. He has a very exclusive viewpoint of himself and he will turn you into it if you blindly fall for his exclusive deceptions. Satan will tell you he is the exclusive solution by deceiving you into believing he is God your only solution. He will only provide you with the exclusive solution that keeps him exclusively in power and control.

Orthodox, other centered Philippians 2:1-17 Christ has exposed you and He is the only comparison. You did not come to America as this and it shows by your real world self centered outcome. Those who are exclusive only listen to their exclusive selves as the solution. This just bounced off of the Orthodox like BB's bouncing off a battleship. The more exclusive the more impervious to the Christ solution found in John 8:31-59. That is a warning Orthodox not to become that or you will deny Christ and die as a church for the same reasons why they denied Christ. Christ confronted self centered and self protective exclusiveness turned into we alone are Gods only true truth and Christ exposed them for who they were and who was really the God they worshiped.

They then took up stones to kill Jesus. A church dies by the degree it stones Jesus to death in its midst. Self idolatry stones Jesus to death. I see that in the Gospels. What do you see in the Gospels, Orthodox? Do you see your church as Pharisee like or Christ like in its real world outcome in America? Every reason why your church is in a state of corruption failure is found in John 8:31-59 and so is its only solution. Christ told them that only He alone and nothing else attached to Him is the solution. Idolatrous attachments is your props knocked to the floor and that can't stand you up.

Christ left the self idolatrous behind and paradigm shifted right past them leaving them to exist in a dying paradigm of their own exclusive delusional viewpoint of themselves.

Christ in the Gospels is the only comparison and just like Christ alone is your only solution. You have been compared and exposed. Yes, I know, you disagree and don't like it. They didn't like it in John 8:31-59 either. By their self idolatry they picked up stones in disagreement to kill what they did not like speaking into them and that compared them to God alone. They tried to compare Jesus to them and it did not work with Jesus. He used their self centered and self protective defense to expose it for what it was in comparison to Him alone.

Jesus did not mince words with them. He pointed out the harsh reality they were bringing upon themselves in their exclusive self idolatry of them themselves that believed that they alone were the God right and true and who can compare themselves to Christ by their self righteousness. The only worse deception than that is to believe your church is Christ and salvation. If you cannot see how spiritually dangerous that is that is only because you are part of the blinded deception of exclusiveness that is self idolatrous.

If the Orthodox believe this is difficult to hear they ought to hear the crash of the implosion of their church due to a false idolatrous foundation disintegrating right under their feet. A rational Christian objective spiritual forensic investigation of the imploded church state discovers the cause of the implosion. It is an irrational implosion that that the rational comparison exposes. Exclusiveness turned into self delusion is subjective irrational and it cannot see itself rationally objectively. Delusion is objective rational reality to the deceived by their own self centered self idolatry that cannot be wrong about itself by its exclusive viewpoint of itself.

I believe that the Orthodox have about as much of a chance of finding the Christ alone solution as did those Christ confronted in the Gospels did. Every solution I have seen from the Orthodox is Christ + Something Else.

Orthodox, do you know what religious codependency is and what causes it? The more top down authoritarian and the more closed the system the more you are dependent upon it. Yours is the most top down and closed system church in all of Christianity. Codependency if you really understand it is idolatry. Codependents hand their power over to what defines them rendering them powerless. All of you are completely powerless to stop the implosion of your church in America. Codependency enables and support the very thing that is destroying it. The more you try to save the object of your codependent idolatry the more it uses what you give it in power to stop the solution in ways you will deny if shown. That denial is what will keep you using the same failed solution over and over again to your church end in America.

In church growth and relevancy development we call using the same failed solution over and over again thinking this time it will provide the desired solution insanity. What do you call it, Orthodox?

Satan is insanity who will lead you into circular without solution insane solutions. When irrationality becomes your rational solution know your church is over. However, you have to be of a sane rational Christian mind not under the delusion of an insane deception to see the insanity in the deception as the solution. You have to be rational to see how irrationally over your church truly is. None of you are rational by your exclusive viewpoint and so no objective Christ rationally sane solution will be coming to your church by any of you who are in a state of subjective irrational delusion in viewpoint of yourselves and your church.

I just exposed the plus something else to be Satan. He is death that brings about church death. He is shame that abuses. He is insane delusional that will not provide a real world Christ alone rationally sane solution. Christ is life that brings about Christ living church. Church death by Satan is not relevant. Church life by living Jesus is relevancy.

Connect the dots Orthodox and see the true idol god in rule over your church hidden behind the scenes pulling all the corrupt puppet strings. Idolatry will blind you to the idol and deceive you into believing the object of idolatry is God. The idol will always tell you he is the solution to remain in power and control.

The Orthodox believe I have this wrong and they at the same time cannot deliver a Christ right solution to what is wrong about their dying church. Orthodox who believe I have this wrong please tell me how I got this wrong. Gods only true church correct my error. Share with me your Orthodox growth and relevancy development strategy that is going to save your church in America. Show me the props that are going to save it here and when they can't stand it up here.

Those Christ confronted in John 8:31-59 also believed that they were Gods only true worship, belief, theology, fathers, traditions, theology, history, structure and system and salvation. Yes, I know, in your Orthodox Minds, claiming to be Gods only true church and Christians makes you immune to becoming anything close to what Jesus confronted in the Gospels.

 

[ArmyMatt]

1. Orthodoxy is anti west, anti rational and anti modern.

false

2. Orthodoxy is a top down centralized structure of authoritarian rule power and control inside of a exclusive, closed, isolated, segregated and subjective system.

totally false. I suggest you read some history and look at how often the laity corrected those in power.

3. Ethnicity and culture first over Christ first.

also false. look at the Antiochian Archdiocese, the OCA, and the Western Rite wherever you find it. check out St Vlad's Ed Day, or the American Orthodoxy stuff that keeps springing up.

The issue with Orthodoxy in America is that is demographically dying.

also false, the numbers say otherwise.

the rest of your post is complete garbage and only shows you know next to nothing about how our Church operates.

 

[Thekla]

The issue with Orthodoxy in America is that is demographically dying. There are three causation reasons for this that I can see:

1. Orthodoxy is anti west, anti rational and anti modern.

2. Orthodoxy is a top down centralized structure of authoritarian rule power and control inside of a exclusive, closed, isolated, segregated and subjective system.

3. Ethnicity and culture first over Christ first.

In freedom of religion a church has to stand up on its own two Jesus feet and walk without any idolatrous props holding it up. Orthodoxy has fallen to the floor in America and cannot stand back up. What props it up in places like Russia and Greece does not prop it up here.

The foundation of Orthodoxy in America is self idolatrous and that foundation has now collapsed from under it causing the church to crash in on itself. The ultimate self idolatrous claim is, We are Gods only True Church, salvation and Christians.

The state of Orthodoxy in America is corrupt, failed, irrelevant, abusive, cultic, self centered, delusional and dying.

The Greek parish in my city of 200k is the only parish for 40 miles. It has been here for 60+ years and about 100 of Gods only true Christians show up on Sunday. In less than 60 years several churches with Sunday attendance into the thousands each have been established.

In the case of the Greek church it looks like to me that it came to America as an omission of Christ's commission. In other words it omitted Christ and relied on immigration, marriage and birth to grow. That only can work so far before it stops and becomes counter productive for a reasons caused by prideful idolatrous exclusiveness.

In every case I have seen with the Orthodox in America in their trying to stop the implosion of their church they use the very problem causing the implosion as the solution to the implosion only making the situation worse. Exclusiveness will only use its exclusive self as the solution to its exclusive problem and that simply will not work if you want to be an inclusive, open system and bottom up raise people up Freedom in Christ church.

Orthodoxy is not a bottom up raise you up and open system inclusive church and Jesus in the Gospels is. It is this simplistic, top down pushes down and closed isolates. That is not freedom in Christ. It is a John 8:31-59 like church with emphasis on John 8:42-44. It is that corrupt with a mask of Christ veneer covering what is really going on behind the mask.



The Orthodox in America have many difficult realities they are going to have face about themselves if they want to survive in America. What held them up from where they came from does not hold them up here. Denial of the real world Christ reality state of their church by exclusiveness will only insure the death of their church in America. I believe the pride, arrogance and self righteousness of the exclusive Orthodox will keep them from admitting the causation of their implosion and that means nothing is going to stop the implosion.

The consequences are a slow, ugly and painful self tortured church death and the Orthodox would rather die as a church than face the real causation of their corruption, failure, irrelevancy, abuse, cultism, delusion and dying state that has no solution other than the very problem itself as their only solution. Circular without solution and where all solutions take the Orthodox back to failed solution square one is their future in America.

Orthodox, welcome to bottom up and open system freedom of religion competition in comparison and choice America. Competition exposes and your church has been exposed for why and how it is failed in America.

Bottom up and open Jesus exposed what was top down and closed in the Gospels. Freedom exposes bondage. Your church is in systemic bondage and the only solution is corporate repentance and systemic bondage breaking. Your Patriarch's will not lead you through such a process for their being corrupt and so that is the future of your church. The corruption is going to continue to collapse your church and you are powerless by your idolatry of the corruption to stop it. Exclusive self idolatry that really cannot be wrong about itself will not repent or bondage break.

His Divine All Holiness the EP is neither divine or all holy and he cannot lead you out of corruption when he is corrupt. It is delusional to believe that such a man can.

Satan also has a delusional viewpoint of himself and he will turn you into his self delusion if you follow him as your God. Only Satan in his Satan Mind can be God. He has a very exclusive viewpoint of himself and he will turn you into it if you blindly fall for his exclusive deceptions. Satan will tell you he is the exclusive solution by deceiving you into believing he is God your only solution. He will only provide you with the exclusive solution that keeps him exclusively in power and control.

Orthodox, other centered Philippians 2:1-17 Christ has exposed you and He is the only comparison. You did not come to America as this and it shows by your real world self centered outcome. Those who are exclusive only listen to their exclusive selves as the solution. This just bounced off of the Orthodox like BB's bouncing off a battleship. The more exclusive the more impervious to the Christ solution found in John 8:31-59. That is a warning Orthodox not to become that or you will deny Christ and die as a church for the same reasons why they denied Christ. Christ confronted self centered and self protective exclusiveness turned into we alone are Gods only true truth and Christ exposed them for who they were and who was really the God they worshiped.

They then took up stones to kill Jesus. A church dies by the degree it stones Jesus to death in its midst. Self idolatry stones Jesus to death. I see that in the Gospels. What do you see in the Gospels, Orthodox? Do you see your church as Pharisee like or Christ like in its real world outcome in America? Every reason why your church is in a state of corruption failure is found in John 8:31-59 and so is its only solution. Christ told them that only He alone and nothing else attached to Him is the solution. Idolatrous attachments is your props knocked to the floor and that can't stand you up.

Christ left the self idolatrous behind and paradigm shifted right past them leaving them to exist in a dying paradigm of their own exclusive delusional viewpoint of themselves.

Christ in the Gospels is the only comparison and just like Christ alone is your only solution. You have been compared and exposed. Yes, I know, you disagree and don't like it. They didn't like it in John 8:31-59 either. By their self idolatry they picked up stones in disagreement to kill what they did not like speaking into them and that compared them to God alone. They tried to compare Jesus to them and it did not work with Jesus. He used their self centered and self protective defense to expose it for what it was in comparison to Him alone.

Jesus did not mince words with them. He pointed out the harsh reality they were bringing upon themselves in their exclusive self idolatry of them themselves that believed that they alone were the God right and true and who can compare themselves to Christ by their self righteousness. The only worse deception than that is to believe your church is Christ and salvation. If you cannot see how spiritually dangerous that is that is only because you are part of the blinded deception of exclusiveness that is self idolatrous.

If the Orthodox believe this is difficult to hear they ought to hear the crash of the implosion of their church due to a false idolatrous foundation disintegrating right under their feet. A rational Christian objective spiritual forensic investigation of the imploded church state discovers the cause of the implosion. It is an irrational implosion that that the rational comparison exposes. Exclusiveness turned into self delusion is subjective irrational and it cannot see itself rationally objectively. Delusion is objective rational reality to the deceived by their own self centered self idolatry that cannot be wrong about itself by its exclusive viewpoint of itself.

I believe that the Orthodox have about as much of a chance of finding the Christ alone solution as did those Christ confronted in the Gospels did. Every solution I have seen from the Orthodox is Christ + Something Else.

Orthodox, do you know what religious codependency is and what causes it? The more top down authoritarian and the more closed the system the more you are dependent upon it. Yours is the most top down and closed system church in all of Christianity. Codependency if you really understand it is idolatry. Codependents hand their power over to what defines them rendering them powerless. All of you are completely powerless to stop the implosion of your church in America. Codependency enables and support the very thing that is destroying it. The more you try to save the object of your codependent idolatry the more it uses what you give it in power to stop the solution in ways you will deny if shown. That denial is what will keep you using the same failed solution over and over again to your church end in America.

In church growth and relevancy development we call using the same failed solution over and over again thinking this time it will provide the desired solution insanity. What do you call it, Orthodox?

Satan is insanity who will lead you into circular without solution insane solutions. When irrationality becomes your rational solution know your church is over. However, you have to be of a sane rational Christian mind not under the delusion of an insane deception to see the insanity in the deception as the solution. You have to be rational to see how irrationally over your church truly is. None of you are rational by your exclusive viewpoint and so no objective Christ rationally sane solution will be coming to your church by any of you who are in a state of subjective irrational delusion in viewpoint of yourselves and your church.

I just exposed the plus something else to be Satan. He is death that brings about church death. He is shame that abuses. He is insane delusional that will not provide a real world Christ alone rationally sane solution. Christ is life that brings about Christ living church. Church death by Satan is not relevant. Church life by living Jesus is relevancy.

Connect the dots Orthodox and see the true idol god in rule over your church hidden behind the scenes pulling all the corrupt puppet strings. Idolatry will blind you to the idol and deceive you into believing the object of idolatry is God. The idol will always tell you he is the solution to remain in power and control.

The Orthodox believe I have this wrong and they at the same time cannot deliver a Christ right solution to what is wrong about their dying church. Orthodox who believe I have this wrong please tell me how I got this wrong. Gods only true church correct my error. Share with me your Orthodox growth and relevancy development strategy that is going to save your church in America. Show me the props that are going to save it here and when they can't stand it up here.

Those Christ confronted in John 8:31-59 also believed that they were Gods only true worship, belief, theology, fathers, traditions, theology, history, structure and system and salvation. Yes, I know, in your Orthodox Minds, claiming to be Gods only true church and Christians makes you immune to becoming anything close to what Jesus confronted in the Gospels.

(original post clipped as too long to include in my response post)

I think you've created a false structure to respond to, instead of trying to understand Orthodoxy.

Which is not necessarily a matter of blame re: your theory, only that your understanding is superficial and riddled with inaccuracies.

And, as it would take hours to properly respond I won't as I haven't presently the time to do so.

But I would encourage you - in the interest of truth, and Truth - to more deeply evaluate your claims in the interest of really being accurate.

 

[Nik0s]

^
I have never read a more uninformed, American-centric piece of drivel than that. well done sir. /clap It's like if Jack Chick knew we existed and made a tract for us!