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[jckstraw72]

Seriously? You're talking in circles.

i can believe there are no mysteries outside the Church and still believe that God acts upon someone to bring them to the Church ... no one ever said Tallguy is not a Christian or that he has never experienced grace in any way. that is an over-reactive assumption about what others are saying. i consider myself to have been a Christian while still an Evangelical. i believe grace acted upon me to bring me to the Church. but i never received any Mysteries until I was baptized by an Orthodox priest.

baptism unites us to the Body of Christ. i think that's something for the Body of Christ to confer by the grace of God ...

 

[Steinbeck]

If God worked only through the sacraments of the Church then few, if any, would be saved.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

This is one issue that needs a resolute declarative answer. It's absurd to see tons of priests out there chrismating converts, and then on the other side you have priests swearing re-baptism is a must. For goodness sakes, we shouldn't have two divergent opinions on this. If the re-baptism crowd is correct (and I think they're dead wrong), then thousands upon thousands of Orthodox Christians aren't really Orthodox Christians, but, well, posers?

I was chrismated into Holy Orthodoxy. To tell me that I needed re-baptism and, as a result, am a 'pseudo-Orthodox' is just plain hurtful and not very helpful at all.

I'm not sure this thread has any positives to it at all. I tend to take the more radical statements of trumphalists with a grain of salt. I recommend that Tallguy do the same. Stick to the goodguys like Fathers Schmemann, Meyendorff, and Ware. Avoid the extremist stuff and fringes, just keep it positive....

 

[Knee V]

This is one issue that needs a resolute declarative answer. It's absurd to see tons of priests out there chrismating converts, and then on the other side you have priests swearing re-baptism is a must. For goodness sakes, we shouldn't have two divergent opinions on this. If the re-baptism crowd is correct (and I think they're dead wrong), then thousands upon thousands of Orthodox Christians aren't really Orthodox Christians, but, well, posers?

I was chrismated into Holy Orthodoxy. To tell me that I needed re-baptism and, as a result, am a 'pseudo-Orthodox' is just plain hurtful and not very helpful at all.

I'm not sure this thread has any positives to it at all. I tend to take the more radical statements of trumphalists with a grain of salt. I recommend that Tallguy do the same. Stick to the goodguys like Fathers Schmemann, Meyendorff, and Ware. Avoid the extremist stuff and fringes, just keep it positive....

Much of the difference in practice comes from the lack of any actual canons to deal with the reception of people from Protestantism and the modern version of the Roman church. There are ancient canons that deal with the reception of converts from various ancient heretical/schismatic sects, but none that really deal with our modern issue. Thus our bishops are sort of winging it. I would imagine that this will be one of the issues to resolve at the allegedly upcoming council that we are supposedly preparing for.

 

[buzuxi02]

This is one issue that needs a resolute declarative answer. It's absurd to see tons of priests out there chrismating converts, and then on the other side you have priests swearing re-baptism is a must. For goodness sakes, we shouldn't have two divergent opinions on this. If the re-baptism crowd is correct (and I think they're dead wrong), then thousands upon thousands of Orthodox Christians aren't really Orthodox Christians, but, well, posers?

I was chrismated into Holy Orthodoxy. To tell me that I needed re-baptism and, as a result, am a 'pseudo-Orthodox' is just plain hurtful and not very helpful at all.

No one said you need to be baptised anew now that your in the Orthodox church. What we are saying is the Church can seize the former ritual and make it Her own. Thus if you were received by (re)baptism or by chrismation, its still just one baptism.

I dont think there's many Orthodox theologians who claim heterodox baptism is grace-filled and full even before one joins the church, only at the moment of reception does it became a true baptism of the Church.

There has never ever been a time where laity were authorized by a bishop to go out and baptise, so why would the heterodox be granted such a thing?
If that were so, Orthodox laymen would currently be granted permission to baptize when they visit or move to far away places.

The sponsors themselves have never been considered the officiants neither, they are simply a witness and a guide to the newly-illumined. In the early church the apocryphal book the Acts of Thekla was criticised that not only females cannot baptize, but that no one can baptize themselves neither.

The practises of Eikonomia and Akrivia are usually policy decisions based upon the political and social climate the local church finds itself in, nothing dogmatic can really be concluded from it.

Dont believe me? Just read the writings of Metropolitan Philaret of ROCOR, he is clear that the communist Church in his opinion were graceless (and many other groups as well) yet explains why he receives them through eikonomia. Better yet find out how the EP receives old calendar clergy, (that is with akriveia) something thats not even observed with many heterodox clergy, yet most old calendar laity can come to the church without needing to do anything at all.

 

[prodromos]

I don't believe it is the priests' decision, but rather his bishop who decides how those who have been baptised outside the Church are received.

In any case, entry into the Church is through the threefold sacraments of Baptism, Chrismation, and Holy Communion. It's one of the issues we have with the Latins, who withhold the latter two from their children until they reach their teens.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Tallguy

This is something you really must talk about with your priest.

At this stage , when you are taking in info and trying to process it , it's very easy to get hung up on things , and these things can become too large for you to cope with .

There's no need to rush into things , it takes time to grow into Orthodoxy

Agreed.....

 

[jckstraw72]

This is one issue that needs a resolute declarative answer. It's absurd to see tons of priests out there chrismating converts, and then on the other side you have priests swearing re-baptism is a must. For goodness sakes, we shouldn't have two divergent opinions on this. If the re-baptism crowd is correct (and I think they're dead wrong), then thousands upon thousands of Orthodox Christians aren't really Orthodox Christians, but, well, posers?

I was chrismated into Holy Orthodoxy. To tell me that I needed re-baptism and, as a result, am a 'pseudo-Orthodox' is just plain hurtful and not very helpful at all.

but nobody is saying that ...

 

[rusmeister]

I actually agree with Gurney here.
Our God is not a legalistic one.

Jack, it's not saying that heterodox sacraments are the same. It says that, via the Orthodox sacrament, that which was incomplete is now complete. Such understandings are for us, not God, anyway. God doesn't need to be told what's "good enough" for Him.

 

[jckstraw72]

I actually agree with Gurney here.
Our God is not a legalistic one.

Jack, it's not saying that heterodox sacraments are the same. It says that, via the Orthodox sacrament, that which was incomplete is now complete. Such understandings are for us, not God, anyway. God doesn't need to be told what's "good enough" for Him.

I agree Rus, that's the point I've been making -- the heterodox baptism is INcomplete. If it was a true baptism then converts would never be baptized into Orthodoxy, and we would never speak of Chrismation filling in the form of the heterodox baptism, we would just say they've already been united to Christ and now we are Chrismating them.

 

[ArmyMatt]

If God worked only through the sacraments of the Church then few, if any, would be saved.

that's not what he is saying. God works His grace wherever He wills, but the guarenteed sacramental life exist ONLY in His Body. outside of the Church it is incomplete, not nonexistant. he also said just before this post that when he was an evangelical that God was acting in his life.

and if you know jack at all, you know how much he venerates Fr Seraphim, who was recieved by chrismation. saying that, Fr Seraphim did feel like something was lacking, so jack is not saying that chrismation makes anyone any less of an Orthodox Christian, but he is commenting on the fact that people throw around eikonommia prolly more than they should. St Cyrill of Alexandria (I think) would recieve schismatics by baptism, and St Stephen of Rome called him the antichrist for doing it. so this issue ain't so cut and dry, and jack's position is certainly one that has a history within the Church.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

 

[choirfiend]

It is the normative, true, Orthodox belief that we cannot judge outside the CHurch. We do, however recognize when a baptism has been performed according to the proper form--name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, in water, by a group maintains traditional Christian theology.

When such a baptism has been performed, it is often the case to complete joining the Church by chrismation and communion, which fulfills whatever might have been lacking in the baptismal form (which we dont judge.) There is ZERO debate over this. SOME kind of reception is always needed, even among RCs who might have had a chrismation ceremony at some point (confirmation) and who had been receiving RC communion.

This neither means we believe others to be incapable of receiving God's grace nor that we believe others "have" the Sacramental grace found in the Church. We're still going to be agnostic on that. Most of the people here are speaking past each other.

Sometimes people are received into the Church through baptism, chrismation, and communion. Those for whom the form OR the beliefs of the previous group are questionable, as well as those for whom their Bishops say they should be received by Baptism are received in this way. Either way is a non-issue.

 

[GregConstantine]

@Tallguy88

you said:
"Is that what Catholics do? Or even Protestants? Of course not."

Umm...yes, well, not Catholics, but some protestants do baptize themselves, each other, and sometimes even give themselves communion. So yes, it does happen.

 

[GregConstantine]

I'm noticing some people are not reading other's posts very carefully and are reacting to their posts in an emotional way.


@Tallguy88,

We have to move away from a Western thinking of membership in an institution makes or breaks you (in our case, makes or breaks our salvation). We also have to move away from another Western way of thinking which is this: If you hear any exclusive claims to anything, you have to automatically assume that person is excluding, judging, and condemning everyone else who is not privy or have not had access to this exclusive truth. So when we say that there is no sacraments or grace outside of the Church, you should not assume we are automatically passing judgement on you and saying you are "_____".

 

[jckstraw72]

I'm noticing some people are not reading other's posts very carefully and are reacting to their posts in an emotional way.


@Tallguy88,

We have to move away from a Western thinking of membership in an institution makes or breaks you (in our case, makes or breaks our salvation). We also have to move away from another Western way of thinking which is this: If you hear any exclusive claims to anything, you have to automatically assume that person is excluding, judging, and condemning everyone else who is not privy or have not had access to this exclusive truth. So when we say that there is no sacraments or grace outside of the Church, you should not assume we are automatically passing judgement on you and saying you are "_____".

nice post Greg

 

[snowpumpkin]

This is one issue that needs a resolute declarative answer. It's absurd to see tons of priests out there chrismating converts, and then on the other side you have priests swearing re-baptism is a must. For goodness sakes, we shouldn't have two divergent opinions on this. If the re-baptism crowd is correct (and I think they're dead wrong), then thousands upon thousands of Orthodox Christians aren't really Orthodox Christians, but, well, posers?

I was chrismated into Holy Orthodoxy. To tell me that I needed re-baptism and, as a result, am a 'pseudo-Orthodox' is just plain hurtful and not very helpful at all.

I'm not sure this thread has any positives to it at all. I tend to take the more radical statements of trumphalists with a grain of salt. I recommend that Tallguy do the same. Stick to the goodguys like Fathers Schmemann, Meyendorff, and Ware. Avoid the extremist stuff and fringes, just keep it positive....

Welcome to Orthodoxy, Gurney! This is one of my bigger stumbling blocks. We all believe the same doctrine, but when it comes to Orthodox praxis, we live like protestants, each doing our own thing.

Two bishops can say opposite things, but they can both be right, because they're bishops.

This is why I feel like I'm losing my mind inside Orthodoxy. Two bishops can say different things and both opinions are OK. If I listen to my priest, I'm good. But I listen to another priest or bishop, who has a different opinion than mine does, I'm committing a sin by not listening to MY priest, even though both opinions are acceptable to Orthodoxy...

So I feel like I have to blindly listen to my new priest, despite what my old priest said, and check my mind at the door.

 

[GregConstantine]

@snowpumpkin,

no, you don't have to check your mind at the door, you have to use your mind and with it understand that when making an exclusive truth claim, you are not automatically judging and condemning someone else. That is what our culture and society tells us you are doing when you make an exclusive truth claim. Do not listen to our society and culture! It believes that in order to get along, we have to make nice, brush aside our differences as if they don't matter, hold hands, and sing Kumbaya. I say an emphatic "NO!" to this, and you should too!

 

[snowpumpkin]

@snowpumpkin,

no, you don't have to check your mind at the door, you have to use your mind and with it understand that when making an exclusive truth claim, you are not automatically judging and condemning someone else. That is what our culture and society tells us you are doing when you make an exclusive truth claim. Do not listen to our society and culture! It believes that in order to get along, we have to make nice, brush aside our differences as if they don't matter, hold hands, and sing Kumbaya. I say an emphatic "NO!" to this, and you should too!

I'm not talking about objective, doctrinal truth. I'm talking about subjective beliefs and praxis. Like tollhouses or frequency of confession, or just crismation vs rebaptism, rigidity of fasting, etc.

 

[GregConstantine]

but that's the problem. the whole chrismation vs rebaptism is doctrinal!