Orthodox who support homosexual activity

[GregConstantine]

How have you guys countered this? What do you say when all you do is simply repeat the teachings of the Church regarding marriage and sexuality, and they (I'm talking about other Orthodox Christians) respond by accusing you of being judgmental, etc?

 

[rusmeister]

Anyone can say anything and claim to be Orthodox. Without an episcopal declaration, you're not going to get an "official" excommunication of non-Orthodox teaching, though a rejection of a teaching by a clear or overwhelming majority constitutes effective denial of an idea.

When people talk about "being judgemental", I ask whether they think act x, y or z is wrong. Obviously they think murder and rape wrong. I then point out that they are being "judgemental", that is, failing to distinguish between judging a person's acts and judging his standing before God. We are forbidden to do the latter; we MUST do the former. We MUST say that sin is sin, and by so saying, we judge sin. The simple fact is that Christ meant something specific in saying "Judge not...". He couldn't have meant "Never determine the goodness or badness of anything in the world", something we can't go an hour without doing.

 

[RKO]

deleted due to my gross misunderstanding!!

 

[GregConstantine]

@RKO, he is saying we shoudn't judge a person's standing before God.

 

[RKO]

@RKO, he is saying we shoudn't judge a person's standing before God.

I mis-read it then. Apologies to Rus. I thought he was saying we SHOULD judge someone's standing before God. I should have known that Rus wouldn't say that.
Sorry Rus and thanks, Greg.

 

[Knee V]

Sometimes no argument, no matter how sound or logical it might be, is going to change someone's mind. When someone has an emotional reaction like that ("you're so judgmental!"), they have likely already made up their mind based on emotion, and thus it will be difficult to get them to consider changing their mind with facts, and we'll probably just contribute to them getting angry with us. I find that it is often best just to acknowledge that their point of view is what it is and then talk about something else. When/if the time is right and when/if they're ready, they may consider another view point, and it will probably have little or nothing to do with us.

 

[GregConstantine]

@knee-v, I feel you are making an unnecessary assumptiont:

this isn't about an emotional argument one has with someone just to prove one is right and the other is wrong for the sake of being right. This is about something that is tantamount to heresy and many of our brothers and sisters in the Church, especially of my generation and younger, have and are embracing this heresy, not only that, but they are actively going about "teaching" it, for a lack of a better word, this heresy. We are responsible for our brothers in Christ. We are to correct our brother in mercy and love. This is becoming a serious problem and I feel that your approach knee-v with all due respect, has gotten us to this point.

 

[Knee V]

@knee-v, I feel you are making an unnecessary assumptiont:

this isn't about an emotional argument one has with someone just to prove one is right and the other is wrong for the sake of being right. This is about something that is tantamount to heresy and many of our brothers and sisters in the Church, especially of my generation and younger, have and are embracing this heresy, not only that, but they are actively going about "teaching" it, for a lack of a better word, this heresy. We are responsible for our brothers in Christ. We are to correct our brother in mercy and love. This is becoming a serious problem and I feel that your approach knee-v with all due respect, has gotten us to this point.

I think perhaps I didn't make my point very well, or I misunderstood your point in the first place.

 

[ArmyMatt]

tell them that they are darn right I am being judgmental, but I am echoing a judgment God made.

 

[Dorothea]

@knee-v, I feel you are making an unnecessary assumptiont:

this isn't about an emotional argument one has with someone just to prove one is right and the other is wrong for the sake of being right. This is about something that is tantamount to heresy and many of our brothers and sisters in the Church, especially of my generation and younger, have and are embracing this heresy, not only that, but they are actively going about "teaching" it, for a lack of a better word, this heresy. We are responsible for our brothers in Christ. We are to correct our brother in mercy and love. This is becoming a serious problem and I feel that your approach knee-v with all due respect, has gotten us to this point.

Well, I agree with knee. I mean, what can we do to change someone's mind if it's already made up? Nothing has been my experience, and talking about it several times with the person isn't going to change their minds. Not sure how you think it will, Greg.

 

[rusmeister]

Well, I think Greg has a valid concern.

Converts coming into the Church, as well as "cradle" Orthodox are exposed to the world's propaganda in schools, the media, and finally by other people challenging the idea that our sexual desires can be wrong (selectively forgetting that they WILL condemn some things, usually falling back on a concept of "no harm" (as long as "no one's being hurt" (so they think). These masses of people are coming into the Church and they forget that in the Church, we must submit to the Church's authority to teach us, and think that their own conception of morality is "naturally" Orthodox.

People that reject that authority, that want to teach and not be taught, need to be rebuked (in love) and maybe thrown out on their ear (ditto). But for those that ask "Why", it is helpful to know the basis on which we accept authority n general in the Church, and insofar as possible, to understand why the Church's teaching is rational and true.

 

[Dorothea]

I understand that, Rus, and I don't like seeing our fellow Orthodox believing and teaching what we all know is sinful behavior as being all right. It does bother me, but I have not seen any remedy for it. I've had discussions before about it in the past, and the person disagreed and that was that. They didn't want to carry on the conversation.

 

[rusmeister]

I understand that, Rus, and I don't like seeing our fellow Orthodox believing and teaching what we all know is sinful behavior as being all right. It does bother me, but I have not seen any remedy for it. I've had discussions before about it in the past, and the person disagreed and that was that. They didn't want to carry on the conversation.

The remedy,as I see it, is to make sure the Church "has our back" and to teach that consensus. In love, taking individual situations into account, weighing our words for charity and care of thought, but not accepting that people with contradictory ideas have "equal weight" in discussions.

The perniciousness of the modern "Let's agree to disagree" and stigma attached to being certain of traditional truths must be combated with dogmatic certainty - BUT - we MUST know what we are talking about when we do and be certain that what we say is indeed in harmony with our Tradition and us backed up and not contradicted by it. If, confronted with that, in love, they do not wish to continue the conversation, fine. If they are not convinced, pray for them - and for ourselves, that we not be deceived or lead into deception.

 

[buzuxi02]

Firstly, we who remain in holding the correct belief must not become desensitized over time like the rest. We do not need to give a religious argument. Anatomically we know its an illogical and dangerous activity. We know statistically they suffer from much higher rates of std's to being the most notorious serial killers (no I'm not kidding look it up most were gay). We should even boycott hollywood and whomever else promotes this nonsense.

 

[Dorothea]

The remedy,as I see it, is to make sure the Church "has our back" and to teach that consensus. In love, taking individual situations into account, weighing our words for charity and care of thought, but not accepting that people with contradictory ideas have "equal weight" in discussions.

The perniciousness of the modern "Let's agree to disagree" and stigma attached to being certain of traditional truths must be combated with dogmatic certainty - BUT - we MUST know what we are talking about when we do and be certain that what we say is indeed in harmony with our Tradition and us backed up and not contradicted by it. If, confronted with that, in love, they do not wish to continue the conversation, fine. If they are not convinced, pray for them - and for ourselves, that we not be deceived or lead into deception.

Yes, praying is and has been what I've been doing.

 

[Kristos]

How have you guys countered this? What do you say when all you do is simply repeat the teachings of the Church regarding marriage and sexuality, and they (I'm talking about other Orthodox Christians) respond by accusing you of being judgmental, etc?

The only response would seem to be to stand your ground while continuing to show them the love of Christ.

God doesn't force anyone to change and neither should we.

 

[GregConstantine]

once again, everyone please keep in mind, no one is talking about forcing anyone to do anything, but this cannot be left unaddressed, this is becoming a serious problem especially amongst our youth. Quite frankly, our hierarchs, aside from putting out a letter here and there, are really not doing much about this in any really obvious way. For example, there was an incident (I can't go into a whole lot of details on a public forum) in which a young person was in a position of leadership in an Orthodox ministry and was pushing for the acceptance of gay marriage and the normalization of homosexual activities, he was actively teaching this to the other youth, long story short, it took a lot of pleading to get certain clergy involved to take decisive action towards this individual.

 

[Lukaris]

once again, everyone please keep in mind, no one is talking about forcing anyone to do anything, but this cannot be left unaddressed, this is becoming a serious problem especially amongst our youth. Quite frankly, our hierarchs, aside from putting out a letter here and there, are really not doing much about this in any really obvious way. For example, there was an incident (I can't go into a whole lot of details on a public forum) in which a young person was in a position of leadership in an Orthodox ministry and was pushing for the acceptance of gay marriage and the normalization of homosexual activities, he was actively teaching this to the other youth, long story short, it took a lot of pleading to get certain clergy involved to take decisive action towards this individual.

While I do not know the specific case you mention, I think this is a reflection of common worldly indoctrination of an intolerant (yet always screaming for "tolerance!"), lust driven (preaching a false "love"), & totalitarian anti Christian world religion. There is no "love the sinner, hate the sin" or even "don't ask don't tell" attitudes allowed.

 

[GregConstantine]

Yes Lukaris but what is even more disturbing is what is our hierarchs doing about this?

 

[Lukaris]

Yes Lukaris but what is even more disturbing is what is our hierarchs doing about this?

I wonder how aware they are of how pervasive it really is? I know they are not factually oblivious to the general culture but do they really have a grasp of the extension of secular indoctrination into their own flocks?