Origins of the Secret Pre-trib Rapture

[trumpeter]

So, let me ask the Pre-tribbers... if the time comes and the rapture really isn't pre-trib, and we know for sure the Antichrist has arisen to power, what will you think?

The revealing of the Antichrist in the temple is not the incident that marks the Antichrist’s rise to power, his revealing occurs before he comes to power for 42 months in the second half (Rev. 13:5). Paul told the Thessalonians and us that the Antichrist has to appear before we are gathered to him and before the day of the Lord. We will see and hear of the Antichrist in the third temple “proclaiming himself to be God.” When this happens we’ll known the rapture is several weeks away and the day of the Lord and its destruction will follow on the heels of our departure.

Pre 7 year tribbers cannot acknowledge he has to appear before we are taken up because it seems to contradict a pre-tribulation rapture. As I see it, the rapture follows his appearing and is just before the Tribulation begins. We must be kept from entering the hour of God’s judgment (Rev. 3:10)

The Antichrist rises to power in the second half of the 7 year covenant shortly after his appearance in the third temple before the Tribulation. In the first half he is the small horn in Daniel 7:24-25; 8:9, 23-34. After he subdues three nations in the first half he become a full fledged horn in the second half when he becomes king of his respective nation.

I’ll know I have interpreted God’s word correctly if the Antichrist appears and I’m still here. Pre-7 year rapturists will have not correctly interpreted God’s word.

If the “sudden destruction” of the day of the Lord begins before I’m taken up, I would know that I had been mistaken about the timing of the rapture.

 

[Manasseh_]

Oh, I could lay out plenty of scriptural support, but I think it would be far beyond your abilities.

When you think not.......the Son of Man cometh.

well, here we notice a typical (generic) pretrib answer along with a suggestive ad hominem implying that my ablilities are very limited and I couldn't understand your superior capabilities.........but yet, still no scriptural support is provided.......

1Pe 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:

is your hope in part resting on 2 raptures..........if so then why aren't you following scriptural teaching and giving an answer to those that are asking you here ...........?

I think we already know the answer to that question ....huh..........

his "exellency" if he did post his "evidence" would then have his "evidence" critiqued and shown for it's obvious falsehood and his clear misunderstanding of scripture.

I still stand by my statement ..........your premise still remains pure fantasy without any prophetic scriptural support

 

[Biblewriter]

I still stand by my statement ..........your premise still remains pure fantasy without any prophetic scriptural support

All positions on the timing of the rapture are based on interpretation. he scriptures very explicitly say it will take place, but simply do not say when this will occur in the prophetic timeline.

The dispute over the timing of the rapture is not based on which scriptures we rely on. In fact, in many cases we rely on the same scriptures. Post tribbers believe every scripture they know about, and they know at least almost all the ones that apply to this question. But that is also true of the pre tribbers.

The real basis of the dispute lies in certain assumptions about the meanings of certain terms the Holy Scriptures use in discussion the Lord's coming. If one set of assumptions about the meanings of these terms is correct, one answer is obvious. But if a different set of assumptions about the meanings of these terms is correct, a different answer is obvious.

So no one should condemn anyone who has a different view of this matter. No one is "sinning" in their interpretation of these scriptures. Obviously, we cannot all be correct, but that does not mean that any of us reject any of the scriptures, or do not believe them.

But many are sinning in the approach they take to the discussion of this and many other scriptural topics. The ill will and pride of many on both sides of this debate are displayed on a daily basis. This is sin, pure and simple.

 

[John S]

Jesus said that "many will be deceived". Those people who believe in a Pre-Trib Rapture already are.

 

[zeke37]

typically, most pre tribbers look for a physical third temple to be built in Jerusalem, before the AC can sit in it.

but the NT repeatedly teaches what the temple is today, as being us believers, not a physical temple at all.

so that part of the deception is deep within Christianity.
how will you recognize the time, when no physical temple is built?

do a simple NT word search on temple of God and see for yourself.

 

[Charles Spurgeon]

Regarding the day/hour thing... you know, yes we have some specific time references in Revelation, etc... but does the Bible peg it so much that we would know the specific day, even if we were 5 years (or so) away (during the tribulation)... it seems to be that we can know the general time frame if we were in the tribulation, but we won't know the specific day, thus fullfilling Jesus's words. Biblewriter, what say ye?

 

[Zippy the Wonderslug]

I just wanted to thank everyone for this thread and the responses that have been given.

 

[Super Kal]

The truth is that Justin Martyr never said anything whatsoever about when Jesus would take the believers out of this world, nor did he say very much about end time prophecy at all.

But he did very explicitly say that even in his early day, Christians were not agreed about the correct way to interpret end time prophecies. He wrote:

“Then I answered... ‘I am not so miserable a fellow, Trypho, as to say one thing and think another. I admitted to you formerly, that I and many others are of this opinion, and [believe] that such will take place, as you assuredly are aware; but, on the other hand, I signified to you that many who belong to the pure and pious faith, and are true Christians, think otherwise.’” (Dialogue with Tyrpho, by Justin Martyr, chapter LXXX.)

he SPECIFICALLY wrote about a thousand year reign with Christ... but he ALSO admitted there were those who did not believe in a literal thousand years...

THOSE PEOPLE ARE CALLED AMILLENNIALISTS... NOT DISPENSATIONALISTS.

you really are lost in this Zionist delusion

 

[Biblewriter]

he SPECIFICALLY wrote about a thousand year reign with Christ... but he ALSO admitted there were those who did not believe in a literal thousand years...

THOSE PEOPLE ARE CALLED AMILLENNIALISTS... NOT DISPENSATIONALISTS.

you really are lost in this Zionist delusion

I have already presented indisputable proof that there was as much Dispensational doctrine as Covenant Theology doctrine prior to the year 200. see:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7542790-14/

 

[Choose Wisely]

Manasseh_;58889463]

well, here we notice a typical (generic) pretrib answer along with a suggestive ad hominem implying that my ablilities are very limited and I couldn't understand your superior capabilities.........but yet, still no scriptural support is provided.......

Your mind is already made up. What could be shown to you?

1Pe 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:

My hope is in the truth that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God, who died for our sins, rose from the grave and sits at the right hand of the Father.

is your hope in part resting on 2 raptures..........if so then why aren't you following scriptural teaching and giving an answer to those that are asking you here ...........?

My hope does not rest on 2 raptures....though it will happen. If you asked as a man seeking truth I would certainly provide scripture proof.

I think we already know the answer to that question ....huh..........

Doubtful.

his "exellency" if he did post his "evidence" would then have his "evidence" critiqued and shown for it's obvious falsehood and his clear misunderstanding of scripture.

Your mind is made up and not looking for truth.

I still stand by my statement ..........your premise still remains pure fantasy without any prophetic scriptural support

When the day comes that you are truly interested in looking at things beyond "Pre trib is of the devil" Please let me know. I will be happy to show you reasons why there will be 2 raptures. In the meantime you might look at the fig tree.

 

[Super Kal]

I have already presented indisputable proof that there was as much Dispensational doctrine as Covenant Theology doctrine prior to the year 200. see:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7542790-14/

You can try and "prove" Zionism all you want, but Justin Martyr, the very same who believer in a literal thousand years, also calls your interpretation of the Jews as "ridiculous"

When it concerns you and early church doctrine, you have no credibility.

 

[Biblewriter]

You can try and "prove" Zionism all you want, but Justin Martyr, the very same who believer in a literal thousand years, also calls your interpretation of the Jews as "ridiculous"

When it concerns you and early church doctrine, you have no credibility.

Did you even look at my link?

 

[mannysee]

...That is details contained in one comment about his coming that explicitly contradict details in other comments about his coming. The only way the details of both comments could be completely true and accurate is for him to be coming more than one more time...

James,

I'm interested in being pointed to a couple of the best examples of these contradictions, using Christ's own words in the NT.

 

[trumpeter]

Regarding the day/hour thing... you know, yes we have some specific time references in Revelation, etc... but does the Bible peg it so much that we would know the specific day, even if we were 5 years (or so) away (during the tribulation)... it seems to be that we can know the general time frame if we were in the tribulation, but we won't know the specific day, thus fullfilling Jesus's words. Biblewriter, what say ye?

There are time references in Daniel 12:11-12 to the general time frame for fulfillment of Daniel’s 70th week of 7 years that ends with the second coming. In the middle of the 7 years the Antichrist will abolish sacrifices and offerings leaving 1,290 days until Messiah returns and another 45 days to reach the Millennium in 1,335 days (Dan 12:11-12). The first half of the 7 years begins with the confirmation of the covenant 1,260 days before sacrifices are abolished by the Antichrist and another 1,290 days transpire before Christ returns. Total days add up to 7 years (1,260 + 1,290 = 2550 divided by 365.4 = 6.98 years).

People cannot begin marking off the time until Christ’s return with enactment of the 7 year covenant because the agreement is a secret plot between the Antichrist and the “many” Muslim enemies of Israel, it does not involve peace. They will be able to establish a time frame for his return when the Antichrist ends sacrifices. They will be able to figure out what week of the month he returns but not the “day or hour.”

The time references in Revelation of 42 months (13:5); a time; times and half a time (12:14) and 1,260 days (11:3) are concurrent within the second half of the 7 year covenant after sacrifices are abolished by the Antichrist.

The “day or hour” of Mt 24 applies to the second coming of Jesus at the end of Tribulation and not the rapture’s timing at the beginning of it. There are no restrictions for us knowing the specific day or hour of the rapture.

 

[Biblewriter]

James,

I'm interested in being pointed to a couple of the best examples of these contradictions, using Christ's own words in the NT.

See posts 8, 9, and 10 in this thread.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7598072-5/

But it is wholly inappropriate to limit the discussion to the actual words of Christ for "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:" (2 Timothy 3:16)

 

[Biblewriter]

Regarding the day/hour thing... you know, yes we have some specific time references in Revelation, etc... but does the Bible peg it so much that we would know the specific day, even if we were 5 years (or so) away (during the tribulation)... it seems to be that we can know the general time frame if we were in the tribulation, but we won't know the specific day, thus fullfilling Jesus's words. Biblewriter, what say ye?

Please pardon the delay in answering you, The flaming attack that came into this discussion diverted my attention from your post. That poster is so filled with malice that he seems unable to carry on a respectful discussion. Respectfulness is both possible and required by the rules of this forum and (more importantly) of our Lord, even in strenuous debate. This debate does not involve any concept critical to the Christian faith. A denial that our Lord will indeed return would be a denial of a concept critical to Christianity, but the timing of the rapture is most certainly not a critical issue.

But to answer your question, Daniel was told that "these wonders" would end after "a time, times, and an half." Not undersanding, he asked the angel "what shall be the end of these things?" He was told, "And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days."
(Daniel 12:8-11)

This 1290 days is exactly 30 days more than the 1260 days that the woman will be fed in the wilderness. (Revelation 12:5)

Now to return to the original subject of this thread, The interpretation of Daniel's seventieth week as future goes all the way back to Irenaeus, who is believed to have written between the years 186 ans 188. He wrote:

“And then he points out the time that his tyranny shall last, during which the saints shall be put to flight, they who offer a pure sacrifice unto God: ‘And in the midst of the week,’ he says, ‘the sacrifice and the libation shall be taken away, and the abomination of desolation [shall be brought] into the temple: even unto the consummation of the time shall the desolation be complete.’Now three years and six months constitute the half-week.” (Against Heresies, by Irenaeus, book V, chapter XXV, section 4)

Note: Irenaeus is here talking about the first half of the week, not the second, which we are discussion here. I include this only to indisputably prove that The interpretation of Daniel's seventieth week as future goes at least back to Irenaeus.

 

[Chris81]

The sacrificial system has already been abolished and the temple has been destroyed. Christ is the final atoning sacrifice for our sins that whoever may believe in him shall have eternal life. The old covenant sacrificial system have been done away with and serves no value.

Why take the last week of Daniel 70 weeks and delay it to some far off time in the future. I see nothing in Daniels interpretation that states we must cut off the last week and move it 2000 some years in the future. Why wouldn't we interpret the 70 weeks as 490 consecutive years?

 

[Choose Wisely]

The sacrificial system has already been abolished and the temple has been destroyed. Christ is the final atoning sacrifice for our sins that whoever may believe in him shall have eternal life. The old covenant sacrificial system have been done away with and serves no value.

Why take the last week of Daniel 70 weeks and delay it to some far off time in the future. I see nothing in Daniels interpretation that states we must cut off the last week and move it 2000 some years in the future. Why wouldn't we interpret the 70 weeks as 490 consecutive years?

In Daniel 9:24-27 there are 70 weeks decreed for the Jewish people and the city of Jerusalem. After 69 weeks, the Messiah is cut off. The final week has not happened. When the covenant is confirmed by the man of sin for one week, the clock starts ticking again.

 

[zeke37]

14And Jesus returned in the power of the Spirit into Galilee: and there went out a fame of him through all the region round about.
15And he taught in their synagogues, being glorified of all.
16And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.
17And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,
18The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
19To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
20And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.
21And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.



1The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;
2To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;

i think many scholars believe that this is proof of a gap...
Jesus did not finish the entire passage from Isaiah, but what He read if it, was fulfilled that day.
The part in Isaiah that i left red, was not read.

 

[Biblewriter]

The sacrificial system has already been abolished and the temple has been destroyed. Christ is the final atoning sacrifice for our sins that whoever may believe in him shall have eternal life. The old covenant sacrificial system have been done away with and serves no value.

Why take the last week of Daniel 70 weeks and delay it to some far off time in the future. I see nothing in Daniels interpretation that states we must cut off the last week and move it 2000 some years in the future. Why wouldn't we interpret the 70 weeks as 490 consecutive years?

Zeke has given one of the reasons for thinking this, but that is interpretive.

The real reason is that there remains a vast body of explicitly stated prophecy that has most unquestionably not been fulfilled. All this prophecy speaks in explicit detail about the places and people involved. They very clearly describe a period of trouble in what is now called the land of Israel, but is called the land of Judah in the scriptures.

These prophecies go so far as to define the daily progress of the Assyrian as he invades the land. They say he will kill two-thirds of all those in the land. They also describe in detail five specific battles or campaigns that will take place after Messiah returns.

They very explicitly state that after the Lord comes with fire "to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire." He will bring all Israel home. But they say He will meet them at the border as they come, and purge out all the rebels from among them. Then it very explicitly says that all the rest will repent and mourn for him. Then it very explicitly says that He will bless them in the land, going so far as to explicitly define the future borders of the land, telling which portion each of the twelve tribes of Israel will inherit.

All this is explicitly stated, not given in types and symbols, and I have already posted much of it here in Christian forums. I will provide links to it upon request.