Origin of personality

sfs

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So, those with known function resisted change, but those "functionless" ones keep changing, Right?
Yes.
If so, how fast is the rate of mutation on those functionless ones?
The rate of mutation -- the rate at which new variants appear -- is the same, but the rate of substitution -- the rate at which new variants replace old ones in the population -- is suppressed at functional sites.

In the long run the substitution rate at sites nonfunctional sites is just the mutation rate, which is about 1.2 x 10^-8 mutations per base-pair per generation, according to current estimates.
 
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juvenissun

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Yes.

The rate of mutation -- the rate at which new variants appear -- is the same, but the rate of substitution -- the rate at which new variants replace old ones in the population -- is suppressed at functional sites.

In the long run the substitution rate at sites nonfunctional sites is just the mutation rate, which is about 1.2 x 10^-8 mutations per base-pair per generation, according to current estimates.

It is amazing that we can evaluate that.

So, those functionless genes are going to be with me pretty much intact in my whole life. Is that right?
 
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juvenissun

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isnt that how you would know that babies are born with certain personalities??

That gives a problem. Do they really have the same personality at the birth? I tend to say no.

If verified, then this would be a good evidence to disconnect DNA to personality.
 
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SkyWriting

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Is the personality of a person cultured or born with? From examples of identical twins, I tend to think it is something we born to have. If so, what is the origin of it? It should not be (or is more than) a biological inheritance (controlled by some DNAs. Do identical twins have identical DNA?).I wonder what have we known about it through science.

We are born with dispositions. Our personalities develop around our given dispositions based on environment. I've seen twins born, one slept a lot, the other pulled on oxygen tubes like a mountain climber. The first grew up sedate and calm. The second had surgery to loosen his hamstrings so he didn't walk on his toes all the time. Personalities develop around physical dispositions.
 
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juvenissun

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We are born with dispositions. Our personalities develop around our given dispositions based on environment. I've seen twins born, one slept a lot, the other pulled on oxygen tubes like a mountain climber. The first grew up sedate and calm. The second had surgery to loosen his hamstrings so he didn't walk on his toes all the time. Personalities develop around physical dispositions.

This is a good example. So we do see "some" identical twins have different personalities. At least, this type of examples can disprove the tight connection between DNA and personality.

Then it strongly implies: At least, a significant part of a personality is something "assigned" to a person at the birth. Material-wise (if a scientist really want to find a correlation between molecules and spirit), it is possible that those seemingly functionless genes are responsible for the uniqueness of personality.

(It is my guess that those functionless genes could be very different in an identical twins. Right? sfs. )
 
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juvenissun

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Identical twins have identical DNA.

Thanks. My stupidity (no wonder sfs ignored me :blush:).

So genes, functional or functionless, are subsets of DNA.

I could not let those genes that do not show explicit functions go way. I think they do HAVE some critical functions that are not known to us. There are so many of them. How do we know some of them are not "talking" to each other and controls some functions we could not explain so far? How about the personality?

Could genes communicate to each other and perform some kind of biological function that is not given by each individual gene?
 
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Smidlee

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Thanks. My stupidity (no wonder sfs ignored me :blush:).

So genes, functional or functionless, are subsets of DNA.

I could not let those genes that do not show explicit functions go way. I think they do HAVE some critical functions that are not known to us. There are so many of them. How do we know some of them are not "talking" to each other and controls some functions we could not explain so far? How about the personality?

Could genes communicate to each other and perform some kind of biological function that is not given by each individual gene?
The idea of genes is changing. The central dogma of biology has been shown to be false (even though it's been known for decades.) DNA is not the king of development as once thought but the cell (egg) itself plays a big role. (in another words DNA alone is not what makes us human) Physiology and the revolution in Evolutionary Biology | Voices From Oxford
 
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juvenissun

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The idea of genes is changing. The central dogma of biology has been shown to be false (even though it's been known for decades.) DNA is not the king of development as once thought but the cell (egg) itself plays a big role. (in another words DNA alone is not what makes us human) Physiology and the revolution in Evolutionary Biology | Voices From Oxford

OK.

If so, what is your idea about the origin of personality?

(again, I think identical twins are excellent subject of study. Thanks God to give us such wonderful samples)
 
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sfs

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The idea of genes is changing.
True.

The central dogma of biology has been shown to be false (even though it's been known for decades.)
Watson's version has been known to be false since around 1970. Crick's version seems still to be true. (Crick's explanation for why he used the word "dogma" for something that was clearly speculative was pretty good: he didn't know what the word meant.)

DNA is not the king of development as once thought but the cell (egg) itself plays a big role. (in another words DNA alone is not what makes us human) Physiology and the revolution in Evolutionary Biology | Voices From Oxford
I haven't heard this talk (and am not going to take the time to listen to it), but some of what Noble says is a little over the time, while much of it is only revolutionary to advocates of extreme gene-centric, single-level-of-selection evolution, i.e. pretty much Richard Dawkins. Current evolutionary theory is more nuanced and comprehensive than that.
 
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Smidlee

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OK.

If so, what is your idea about the origin of personality?

(again, I think identical twins are excellent subject of study. Thanks God to give us such wonderful samples)
Even better example was those two women with attached head who shared around 70-80% of the brain yet had two complete different personalities. Some of their personality did arise from the situation they were in as one twin will be stronger than the other. I remember scientist questioned how two people basically shared the same brain but had totally different taste in music, etc.(one like to drink while the other didn't) Exactly where is the "personality" coming from if not from the brain? I believe these at least hints the personality is not just the product of the brain let along of genetics and environment.
 
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juvenissun

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Even better example was those two women with attached head who shared around 70-80% of the brain yet had two complete different personalities. Some of their personality did arise from the situation they were in as one twin will be stronger than the other. I remember scientist questioned how two people basically shared the same brain but had totally different taste in music, etc.(one like to drink while the other didn't) Exactly where is the "personality" coming from if not from the brain? I believe these at least hints the personality is not just the product of the brain let along of genetics and environment.

Thank you very much for the nice information.

Another fundamental question: How do we define a personality? Is there a basic element so the variation of that element shows the variation of personality? Is it practical to classify people based on ?personality?

Is the Myers Briggs classification a classification of personality? I don't think so. It is a practical one and only looks a small part of it (four criteria). And each criterion is a high level criterion, not the fundamental reason which cause the variation.
 
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sfs

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Even better example was those two women with attached head who shared around 70-80% of the brain yet had two complete different personalities. Some of their personality did arise from the situation they were in as one twin will be stronger than the other. I remember scientist questioned how two people basically shared the same brain but had totally different taste in music, etc.(one like to drink while the other didn't) Exactly where is the "personality" coming from if not from the brain? I believe these at least hints the personality is not just the product of the brain let along of genetics and environment.
Details, please. I'm not aware of such a case.

What I do know something about are "split-brain" individuals, who have had their corpus callosum severed. In these cases, the two halves of the brain function largely independently. They can receive information independently, and have no way of communicating internally (except through the brain stem, which permits shared emotion but not shared info). So if you show the person an object or picture through one eye, feeding into the hemisphere that doesn't control speech, he will be able to point to the object (with the hand controlled by that hemisphere) but not say what it is. In at least one case, one side has given the other side hints by tracing letters onto the hand controlled by the other side. When the two hemispheres disagree, the result can be pretty strange, e.g. the person answers a question by holding up several fingers, and the opposite hand starts trying to force some of the fingers down.

Every piece of data I've seen indicates that consciousness and personality are products of the brain.
 
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Smidlee

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Details, please. I'm not aware of such a case.

What I do know something about are "split-brain" individuals, who have had their corpus callosum severed.
In another words the same as brain damage. When someone has brain damage we often refer to that person as "not being himself". I'm sure if someone cut off my arms would have an effect on my person let along my brain.

What about the little girl who had the left side of her brain completely removed yet her memory (except the motor and speech skills which had to be relearned) and personality was fully intact. Again any brain damage (as well as drugs) can effect the person just like any damage on a DVD could effect the movie yet the data written on the DVD is not a product of the DVD itself.
As for the case I'm referring to it was on a TV ... maybe on Nova but not sure. It's been a few years ago.

Not only can the brain effect the person but the person can effect the brain/mind as scripture make this clear. Our thoughts have a huge impact on our brain and body which why scripture speaks a lot about out thought life. So I fail to see how a Christian can hold this redundant point of view of a person is just the product of the brain/mind.
 
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juvenissun

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In another words the same as brain damage. When someone has brain damage we often refer to that person as "not being himself". I'm sure if someone cut off my arms would have an effect on my person let along my brain.

What about the little girl who had the left side of her brain completely removed yet her memory (except the motor and speech skills which had to be relearned) and personality was fully intact. Again any brain damage (as well as drugs) can effect the person just like any damage on a DVD could effect the movie yet the data written on the DVD is not a product of the DVD itself.
As for the case I'm referring to it was on a TV ... maybe on Nova but not sure. It's been a few years ago.

Many would say that the personality of a person WILL change by his life experience. I tend to say, whatever changed as a consequence of experience, knowledge, etc, should not be a part of the true personality, which is unique and is able to identify that person from birth to death. If my arm or leg is cut off, I may change many of my views, habits and whatever is about my life. But I am still I. My real personality should not be changed by any such life experience. A person may change a lot from age 5 to age 85. But at age 85, there still should be something about the person which is not a bit different from what he was at age 5 (In fact, this is a common theme of many good movies, such as Gone with the Wind). That unchanged part, should be what I called the personality.

If that is agreeable, then we might be able to narrow down the information needed for the essential definition of a personality.
 
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