Opinions on the Flood

[jereth]

A poll to gauge opinions of both YECs and TEs about the Flood and its mechanism.

Note that it is a multi choice poll, so you can choose more than 1 option if you think there are more than 1 possibilities.

 

[Pats]

Just out of plain curiosity, why limit the creationists to YECs?

I didn't vote in the poll. I think something happened with Noah. I doubt that the story is entirely allegory. The story of an ark full of animals is multi cultural and not limited to Genesis.

I suspect that when the Scripture refers to the "whole world" they are refering to the known world at the time of the Jewish culture.

 

[Assyrian]

Just out of plain curiosity, why limit the creationists to YECs?

I didn't vote in the poll. I think something happened with Noah. I doubt that the story is entirely allegory. The story of an ark full of animals is multi cultural and not limited to Genesis.

I suspect that when the Scripture refers to the "whole world" they are refering to the known world at the time of the Jewish culture.

You're welcome to join us in the TEs Pat, come on in the water's warm, and you don't have to worry about decaying dinosaurs floating by.

I do notice we are getting some interesting contradictory choices, like the flood was local and it didn't actually happen. I have gone for local and worldwide rise in sea level, because that is a fascinating option I include alongside the Med basin, Black Sea, Mesopotamia and 'other' as possible flood candidates.

 

[Marshall Janzen]

I do notice we are getting some interesting contradictory choices, like the flood was local and it didn't actually happen.

You're getting people saying the flood was local or it didn't actually happen. The OP said to choose more than one if you thought there was more than one possibility. I think both are possibilities. I don't claim to know for sure which is right, but I do think they're contradictory (at least the way I understand them) so they can't both be right.

 

[Pats]

You're welcome to join us in the TEs Pat, come on in the water's warm, and you don't have to worry about decaying dinosaurs floating by.

I don't want to drag us off topic, Assyrian. I will briefly respond that I have never learned much about evolution. I was always too busy looking for arguements against it. Big mistake, but it never occured to me until recently that that's what I had always done.

 

[PaladinValer]

A worldwide flood, as I've said multiple times now, is not possible. There is no such worldwide sediment ring. No ring, no Deluge.

There have been many documented local deluges in the Middle Eastern region. Any of them could be a direct or indirect source of the Flood Myths of that area.

So there was a local great and terrible flood that gave rise to the story.

 

[Assyrian]

You're getting people saying the flood was local or it didn't actually happen. The OP said to choose more than one if you thought there was more than one possibility. I think both are possibilities. I don't claim to know for sure which is right, but I do think they're contradictory (at least the way I understand them) so they can't both be right.

I do understand, I have gone for both 'local' and post Ice Age 'worldwide' myself.

 

[chaoschristian]

I will stipulate that there may have been some sort of localized flood that inspired the ANE flood mythology, and that the Noahic flood myth is based upon that.

While the Black Sea deluge may seem like a likely candidate, there doesn't seem to be enough solid evidence to really support that hypothesis at this time. I am more inclined to think that the ANE flood mythology is based on something that happened in the region of the Tigris and Euphrates.

While flood stories exist throughout the world and I want to point out the flood mythologies are not universal, and where either the stories and/or mythologies exist there is very liitle in common. There is, I think, no evidence for a universal flood mythology.

A universal, global flood of the proportions described in Genesis is not possible nor is there evidence for it.

The Noahic flood is most likely a story that was borrowed from ANE culture and subverted for specific theological purposes.

 

[TorchDude]

Heres my 2 cents...

Just out of plain curiosity, why limit the creationists to YECs?

I didn't vote in the poll. I think something happened with Noah. I doubt that the story is entirely allegory. The story of an ark full of animals is multi cultural and not limited to Genesis.

I suspect that when the Scripture refers to the "whole world" they are refering to the known world at the time of the Jewish culture.

1) God's intentions were to destroy the world and start over to preserve his followers.
2) Why did they need to bring birds on the Ark if it was local?

A universal, global flood of the proportions described in Genesis is not possible nor is there evidence for it.

1) [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]How do you explain petrified trees that go through multiple sediment layers?[/FONT]
2) [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]Most of the Earth’s crust is covered with layer upon layer of sediment and evidence of strong sorting action produced by moving. Frequently the sediment bears strong evidence of having been laid under flood conditions.[/FONT]
3) The order of the sediment layers and the fossils found in them is often random or completely upside down or out of order for Evolution. This would be expected in a global flood catastrophe.
4) The only way ossilization occours is under a large amount of pressure in a short amount of time. The flood explains where ancient fossils came from.[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]
5) [/FONT]Unless rivers flow uphill the river couldn't have formed the Grand Canyon, but there is evidence of erosion.
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]
These are just a few quick ones...
[/FONT]

 

[Willtor]

Just out of plain curiosity, why limit the creationists to YECs?

I think better than TE, OEC, and YEC, in many instances, would be to talk about treating Genesis as historical fact. When most people use YEC, in my experience, they are talking about those who take Genesis in this way. Now, some OECs take the day/age approach, and some are Gapists, but there's a consistent emphasis on the historical/factual aspect, even if some things are said to be left out, or some symbolism is used for "days."

I didn't vote in the poll. I think something happened with Noah. I doubt that the story is entirely allegory. The story of an ark full of animals is multi cultural and not limited to Genesis.

I suspect that when the Scripture refers to the "whole world" they are refering to the known world at the time of the Jewish culture.

I generally agree. I don't know what happened. I just said "local flood" but I don't really have a good handle on it. I would venture to say, however, that I think was a pretty substantial calamity and one particular family came out unscathed by providence or by miracle.

 

[chaoschristian]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]How do you explain petrified trees that go through multiple sediment layers?[/FONT]

Refuted

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]Most of the Earth’s crust is covered with layer upon layer of sediment and evidence of strong sorting action produced by moving. Frequently the sediment bears strong evidence of having been laid under flood conditions.[/FONT]

Refuted <--See section 7

The order of the sediment layers and the fossils found in them is often random or completely upside down or out of order for Evolution. This would be expected in a global flood catastrophe.

Refuted <--See section 7
Refuted
Refuted

The only way ossilization occours is under a large amount of pressure in a short amount of time. The flood explains where ancient fossils came from.

Refuted
Refuted
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]
[/FONT]

Unless rivers flow uphill the river couldn't have formed the Grand Canyon, but there is evidence of erosion.
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]
These are just a few quick ones...
[/FONT]

Refuted <--See the response from Britain to Hancock
Refuted
Refuted

 

[sjdennis]

A worldwide flood, as I've said multiple times now, is not possible. There is no such worldwide sediment ring. No ring, no Deluge.

Don't have time to get too deep into this, but thought I'd point out that there would only be a sediment ring if the flood waters did not cover the whole earth. A bath ring forms where the bath sides leave the water. The high tide line forms where the water finishes and the land that is never wet begins. If the water covered all the mountains, there would be no worldwide sediment ring.

Note that where it says in the poll "Global flood - vapour canopy" this has been shown to not account for all the flood waters alone. However there could feasibly have been a small vapour canopy or something similar that could have contributed to the deluge. The true event was probably a combination of a number of the above-mentioned theories, with some stuff we haven't even thought of, rather than one particular theory being correct. That said, I believe the Bible is pretty clear about the fact that there was a global flood, however it occurred.

 

[PaladinValer]

I'm sorry, but you don't seem to understand what a flood is. A flood covers the ground and leaves a deposit of sediment.

The canopy theory is without any scientific merit because there is no evidence to support it, including the fact that there is no universal sediment ring.

No universal ring=no worldwide flood.

 

[sjdennis]

No universal ring = ONE theory about what a global flood SHOULD theoretically leave behind does not APPEAR to have occured. This does not disprove the entire theory.

No (ok, very few if you want to be argumentitive) clear transitional fossils have been found, I could say this completely disproves evolution. However it doesn't, as the lack of something can never completely prove anything - you may not have found it yet. Or your theory may be wrong in the first place.

There are many features of the earth that point towards a global flood - the Grand Canyon for instance. On the balance of evidence, it is perfectly valid to believe in a global flood, whether or not one small theory about it occurred or not.

 

[PaladinValer]

I'm still waiting for clear science, not un-supported notions that either fit the now-disproven ancient cosmology or are psuedoscience.

 

[sjdennis]

Which is exactly the point I was making about your sediment ring theory, glad you agree.

 

[Assyrian]

Shouldn't that be sediment layer?

 

[jereth]

Just out of plain curiosity, why limit the creationists to YECs?

Sorry about that, Pats. I guess YECs and TEs seem to be the dominant groups, so I kinda overlooked the OECs.

Besides, most OECs' probably believe "local flood" yes?

 

[jereth]

I have gone for local and worldwide rise in sea level, because that is a fascinating option e

Yes, proponents of this theory place the Flood at around 10,000 BC. A worldwide rise in sea level explains how a "flood" could affect every society on earth while not being the improbable YECist "global flood".

The theory struggles to explain simple things like "rain", however.

 

[PaladinValer]

Which is exactly the point I was making about your sediment ring theory, glad you agree.

Makes me laugh.