[OPEN]Does the Origin theory really matter?[/OPEN]

[Assyrian]

I didn't catch the bit where you showed that realising God used evolution was the opposite of faith...

We have faith in God too Kenneth.

Assyrian

 

[kenneth558]

....We have faith in God too Kenneth.

Assyrian

I'll allow that you have some.

 

[jereth]

So then you will understand when the same type of “persecution” coming from the scientific community deems YEC’s as backward, redneck, NASCAR-loving, flat-out-moronic, uneducated, inbred, un-evolved, and to quote my new buddy "patheticly stupid"… Welcome to humanity.

Be assured, I wholly sympathise with YECists when they are belittled and defamed by secular (and sometimes Christian) scientists. Especially when such defamation is groundless and unjustified. I hope that I have never taken part in this, and I apologise if I have at some point inadvertently done so.

To repeat myself, however: being called a scientific idiot is nothing compared to being called a second-class or inferior Christian. As I previously said, YECists are not and never will be in a position where they can appreciate how insulting this feels. For another believer to point the finger at you and question your faith, your integrity, your belief in God, your trust in the Bible.... simply beacuse you interpret 3 or 4 chapters of the Bible differently to them -- it's simply awful.

When above-mentioned YECs form a "ministry", which has as an unsaid part of its mission the total purification of the Church from all forms of old-earth or evolutionary belief -- and when they ask for (and receive) money and prayer to support this "ministry" -- that's like rubbing salt into the wound.

Perhaps, but there are many scientists who do, and they use evolution to try to eliminate the need for a God as a creator.

That's absolutely no justification for this sustained and brutal attack from one segment of the church against another segment of the church. Shouldn't we be banding together to fight the secularists together? This is just as hurtful -- when YECist Christians effectively group us together with atheistic evolutionists and attack us with the one gun. And it is very revealing of the fact that for many YECists, the ultimate dividing factor is not faith in Christ, but belief in evolution.

 

[gluadys]

I've read about half of this thread, and I plan on reading the other half.

I'd really like to see more than just opinion. I'm hoping to see some scripture. I've been attempting to study this issue from scripture.

One thing is clear.... I don't think it's cut and dry.

I think the reason you are not seeing much scripture is because the scripture itself is not in dispute. It is a question of how one interprets the scripture. We can all read the same text, but come to different conclusions about how it relates to history and to science.

 

[Lilandra]

a person has? Would you want your own faith to be weighed by Jesus and found wanting? Whatever measure of judgement you use to judge others will be measured to you.

I'll allow that you have some.

 

[stumpjumper]

As far as theology or salvation goes, I can only comment on what I've seen and that's there seems to be more people who are YECs who lose their faith, or at the very least suffer a crisis of faith when dealing in ernest with the subject of evolution than marginal believers adopting a more fundamentalist theology.

Of course the sad part of that observation is if those people hadn't been so psychologically and emotionally wedded to to YECism, they might still be believers today.

I have found that the latter paragraph is almost completely true...

I don't know if it's universally true with all fundamentalist deconverts (ie they deconverted because of strict young earth creationism) but it is true for many people who disbelieve YEC and then leave their faith...

 

[Lilandra]

somewhat.

I was raised in a Southern Baptist Church by a father and stepmother who told the Eden story as if it was a literal fact.

The Creation of the Earth in 6 days etc

After weighing the evidence, I resent believing something that is false.

I have to straighten out things my children are taught by some Christians. I would prefer not to. But I want them to know the best I can tell them about the world.

Well... Does it really matter?

I fail to see how it really makes that much difference in soteriology, Christology, Bibliology, etc, etc. I guess I just don't know why it is still such a major issue in Christianity... There are very few people or groups that really doubt the theory of evolution but those that do are motivated by religious belief.

Why is that?

Theories about our biological origin really don't have very much to do with faith and I have never understood why it really matters...

Let me know why it matters, if it does, please...

 

[LoG]

I don't know if it's universally true with all fundamentalist deconverts (ie they deconverted because of strict young earth creationism) but it is true for many people who disbelieve YEC and then leave their faith...

To a great degree, Christianity today has aligned itself into two extreme camps, TE and YEC. OEC or Gap theology is jumped on by both sides leaving "deconverts"
no middleground to regroup from. From that perspective, both sides are at fault.

 

[stumpjumper]

If i found cause to beleive in God again, regarding origins theory, i would beleive the same thing!

Well. There are some good teleological arguments that incorporate design and purpose into an evolutionary view of the world... Haught, Rahner, and Polkinghorne are my favs...

im glad this one is open, it was something on my mind

I aim to please

 

[stumpjumper]

I have to straighten out things my children are taught by some Christians. I would prefer not to. But I want them to know the best I can tell them about the world.

Well... You're correct it does matter when you are told or taught one origin theory as absolutely correct and there is no-where else to turn.

It doesn't matter in regards to how you live your life, of course, but it does matter when it comes to existentialism and epistemology.

Two big words but two that make all the difference...

 

[stumpjumper]

To a great degree, Christianity today has aligned itself into two extreme camps, TE and YEC. OEC or Gap theology is jumped on by both sides leaving "deconverts"
no middleground to regroup from. From that perspective, both sides are at fault.

I don't think that there are sides, though.

I don't identify as a theistic evolutionist as when people ask me what I am I say I am a Christian. If they ask about evolution, I say I accept evolution.

Yes, I do read process theology and incorporate that into my view of the world but some times I don't even understand what I believe anyway LOL.

Today is a good day for understanding though...

 

[rmwilliamsll]

To a great degree, Christianity today has aligned itself into two extreme camps, TE and YEC. OEC or Gap theology is jumped on by both sides leaving "deconverts"
no middleground to regroup from. From that perspective, both sides are at fault.

You need to address this issue with AiG, which ran a campaign for people to publically challenge their not-YECist pastors on the origins issue. In politics that is called sedition.

 

[USincognito]

no really, who says that (say for a moment he exists) God didnt create the universe this way, as opposed to the main genesis view?

You're a guest in an Open thread in the CO section, how about being a polite one and not interject comments like what I have bolded above.

 

[USincognito]

I my view, any atheist who pursues the TofE is out to disprove God, knowingly or not. They reject the idea that they might have to be accountable to a higher being. Is this their sole goal? Perhaps not. Would they admit as much if pressed? Perhaps not. I go by the arrogance of the scoffers I have encountered.

In my view people who advocate trade unions and a minimum wage are Communists...
See how unhelpful opinions are in trying to get to know what the other side really thinks?

Maybe you should quit focusing on the God-Haters and get to know more non-believers who think the Creation/Evolution issue is a social and political one.

 

[jereth]

To a great degree, Christianity today has aligned itself into two extreme camps, TE and YEC. OEC or Gap theology is jumped on by both sides leaving "deconverts"
no middleground to regroup from.

A very accurate observation. Something I've learnt from this forum is that if there are any OECs/Gappists/Day-Agers out there, they are either very small in number or very quiet.

It's no accident that there are 2 "extreme" camps. We're dealing with 2 mutually exclusive and irreconcilable paradigms. Anyone who tries to straddle the 2 camps or find middle ground is fooling themself.

YEC and TE are both internally consistent thought systems which have been pursued to their logical ends (well, some would say that if YEC was pursued to its logical end we would have geocentricism or flat-earthism, and they would be entirely correct, but that's for another discussion... ) But as far as I can tell, OEC/Day-Age is full or internal contradictions, and if you try to pursue its ideas to their logical end you end up at YECism (or in the wilderness).

 

[jereth]

You need to address this issue with AiG, which ran a campaign for people to publically challenge their not-YECist pastors on the origins issue. In politics that is called sedition.

What was this campaign? Do you have a URL?
I wonder what was the outcome?

 

[LoG]

But as far as I can tell, OEC/Day-Age is full or internal contradictions, and if you try to pursue its ideas to their logical end you end up at YECism (or in the wilderness).

Thank you for proving my point from the TE camp.

 

[Lilandra]

Many YECs consider it a compromise with naturalism.

A very accurate observation. Something I've learnt from this forum is that if there are any OECs/Gappists/Day-Agers out there, they are either very small in number or very quiet.

It's no accident that there are 2 "extreme" camps. We're dealing with 2 mutually exclusive and irreconcilable paradigms. Anyone who tries to straddle the 2 camps or find middle ground is fooling themself.

YEC and TE are both internally consistent thought systems which have been pursued to their logical ends (well, some would say that if YEC was pursued to its logical end we would have geocentricism or flat-earthism, and they would be entirely correct, but that's for another discussion... ) But as far as I can tell, OEC/Day-Age is full or internal contradictions, and if you try to pursue its ideas to their logical end you end up at YECism (or in the wilderness).

 

[LoG]

To repeat myself, however: being called a scientific idiot is nothing compared to being called a second-class or inferior Christian.

From a scriptural perspective it is much more of a sin to call someone a fool or idiot than to call them an inferior Christian. Jesus compared calling someone a fool akin to murder. Reproving someone for being an inferior Christian appears to be an obligation when reading through Paul's letters or seeing how Jesus related to the pharisees.

That's absolutely no justification for this sustained and brutal attack from one segment of the church against another segment of the church. Shouldn't we be banding together to fight the secularists together? This is just as hurtful -- when YECist Christians effectively group us together with atheistic evolutionists and attack us with the one gun. And it is very revealing of the fact that for many YECists, the ultimate dividing factor is not faith in Christ, but belief in evolution.

That sounds really great, jareth. My experience however differs considerably. I normally avoid the public CreVo forums here at CF because I have found that any comments made there by any Christian other than a TE will have to be defended against both the TE's and the secular evolutionists. TE's in my experience will band together with atheists long before they will with a YEC or an OEC/Gapper.

 

[Lilandra]

on the existence of God numerous times. So I am at least one TE who doesn't always take a nonbeliever's side.

Really I don't see them as a homogenous, surly group.

Even some of the surliest are the dearest people.

That sounds really great, jareth. My experience however differs considerably. I normally avoid the public CreVo forums here at CF because I have found that any comments made there by any Christian other than a TE will have to be defended against both the TE's and the secular evolutionists. TE's in my experience will band together with atheists long before they will with a YEC or an OEC/Gapper.