[OPEN]Does the Origin theory really matter?[/OPEN]

[stumpjumper]

Well... Does it really matter?

I fail to see how it really makes that much difference in soteriology, Christology, Bibliology, etc, etc. I guess I just don't know why it is still such a major issue in Christianity... There are very few people or groups that really doubt the theory of evolution but those that do are motivated by religious belief.

Why is that?

Theories about our biological origin really don't have very much to do with faith and I have never understood why it really matters...

Let me know why it matters, if it does, please...

 

[depthdeception]

Well... Does it really matter?

I fail to see how it really makes that much difference in soteriology, Christology, Bibliology, etc, etc. I guess I just don't know why it is still such a major issue in Christianity... There are very few people or groups that really doubt the theory of evolution but those that do are motivated by religious belief.

Why is that?

Theories about our biological origin really don't have very much to do with faith and I have never understood why it really matters...

Let me know why it matters, if it does, please...

I think it matters a great deal. For example, those who are willing to divorce what can be known from nature and that which is "in" the Scriptures will inevitably end up with a dualistic perspective on theology. Such will dramatically impact what one's understanding of salvation, the Incarnation, etc. is.

 

[jereth]

Judging by experience, it seems that the creation/evolution debate matters a great deal to Creationists. They find it difficult to fathom that other Christians can believe in evolution; therefore they keep stirring the pot.

On the other hand, if Creationists stopped their constant agitating, Theistic Evolutionists would probably carry on with life without much further ado. We know what we believe, we don't really care what the others believe; we are happy to go our separate ways and get on with our business. The reason TEs get fiesty is simply because of the way we are constantly hounded by the opposite camp.

In short: leave us alone, and we'll leave you alone!

 

[Willtor]

I think origins theology is very important. I don't think whether one also takes Genesis as a factual account of history is so important. I don't. I don't think that's what the author(s) intended. However, insofar as it doesn't actually damage the theology, I don't have a problem with it.

I just wish people would stop saying, "believe in evolution," and "believe in a young Earth," and "believe in the Bible."

 

[LoG]

An important aspect of the christian walk is develop an understanding of who God is, His characteristics etc.
If all life evolved from a common ancestor and yet He through the scriptures tells us that each life form was created individually, especially man, it says a lot about His characteristics. The idea that God used evolution to bring life to its present form, puts Him up for ridicule to unbelievers by making Him out to be a liar and a storyteller.

 

[jereth]

Here we have, side by side, prime specimens representative of the attitudes on either side of the origins debate.

The idea that God used evolution to bring life to its present form, puts Him up for ridicule to unbelievers by making Him out to be a liar and a storyteller.

Creationists can't help but rail against evolution, because for them it is an attack on the Bible, an attack on the gospel, an attack on Jesus, an attack on God, an attack on Christianity itself. As a movement, they will never accept theistic evolutionism as an acceptable and legitimate Christian point of view. The assault on TEism is a never-ending crusade (aka jihad) to the glory of God and the betterment of the Christian faith.

However, insofar as it doesn't actually damage the theology, I don't have a problem with it.

On the other hand, TEs generally don't feel that Creationism is an attack on Christianity. We disagree with their theology and their exegesis, and we call their "science" quacky and idiotic, but we don't go round accusing them of throwing God, Jesus and the Bible into disrepute. We don't accuse them of being unchristian, compromising or heretical. We are generally happy to "agree to disagree", to leave Creationists alone to pursue their silly agenda while we get on with our own business. (Of course, in practice, when one is savagely attacked one has little choice but to retaliate...)

 

[Assyrian]

You mean a storyteller like Jesus?

The bible doesn't tell us how God made man and animals, the nearest we get is the description of God molding us out of clay, but this description of God as a potter is a metaphor used throughout the rest of the bible, never literally. If the bible doesn't tell us how God made us, I don't see a problem with science finding a mechanism called evolution.

Assyrian

 

[stumpjumper]

I think it matters a great deal. For example, those who are willing to divorce what can be known from nature and that which is "in" the Scriptures will inevitably end up with a dualistic perspective on theology. Such will dramatically impact what one's understanding of salvation, the Incarnation, etc. is.

I don't think Genesis actually presents a dualistic perspective as I find Hebrew philosophy almost exclusively monistic but, ah, we digress...

My point is that we will never really know the full details about how life came about... At least, I don't see how full knowledge is possible of something like that and one's theory of Origins makes absolutely no difference in regards to one's current life of faith...

At least, it shouldn't make a difference...

 

[stumpjumper]

An important aspect of the christian walk is develop an understanding of who God is, His characteristics etc.
If all life evolved from a common ancestor and yet He through the scriptures tells us that each life form was created individually, especially man, it says a lot about His characteristics.

The Bible also says that all life is interconnected and that all life, no matter how insignificant it may seem to us, is important to God...

Both of those facts are also important to the theory of evolution... Regardless, though, deductive reasoning from natural theology paints a very subjective picture of God no matter what the details are and I think one needs to look elsewhere...

Neither evolution nor unique special creation paints much of a picture of God... It is how we interpret and look at the details and integrate them into our life. All in all, I think the information that we get from our origins theory contributes very little to our walk as a Christian.

The idea that God used evolution to bring life to its present form, puts Him up for ridicule to unbelievers by making Him out to be a liar and a storyteller.

Umm. I think not... It simply means that theology speaks its truths in poetry, allegory, and parable. I think another great teacher used a lot of parables to speak his truths...

What makes unbelievers head's spin is when people say that everything we ever need to know about biology can be found in an allegorical creation myth

 

[depthdeception]

I don't think Genesis actually presents a dualistic perspective as I find Hebrew philosophy almost exclusively monistic but, ah, we digress...

My point is that we will never really know the full details about how life came about... At least, I don't see how full knowledge is possible of something like that and one's theory of Origins makes absolutely no difference in regards to one's current life of faith...

At least, it shouldn't make a difference...

I agree that Genesis (and Hebrew philosophy, moreover) is not dualistic. My point is that individuals (like YECists, for example) who would divorce what can be known about creation (from science, observation, etc.) from what they interpret the Scriptures to say create a dualistic worldview--one in which that which is "seen" is completely rejected and opposed to that which is "not seen." It is a creation denying world-view for the sake of the maintenance of a presuppositional framework.

 

[stumpjumper]

I agree with that Depthdeception...

My real point in this thread is that origins theology really does not have much to do with our lives as Christians...

Now, the ToE is certainly important in certain scientific areas such as pharmacology, vaccines, etc... But that's a different story.

 

[jereth]

My real point in this thread is that origins theology really does not have much to do with our lives as Christians...

True, if you are a theistic evolutionist.

False, if you are a Creationist. Because for a Creationist, one's opinion about origins makes the difference between truth and heresy. (Some have even said that it makes the difference between belief and unbelief.)

 

[stumpjumper]

False, if you are a Creationist. Because for a Creationist, one's opinion about origins makes the difference between truth and heresy. (Some have even said that it makes the difference between belief and unbelief.)

Well, then, this is an outreach thread.

Get some coffee as we might be here for a while

 

[shernren]

I asked a similar question here:

http://www.christianforums.com/t2960584-if-yecism-is-faith-where-is-its-works.html

and I got a similar silence from YECs themselves. As much as it is intellectually stimulating to argue these things out it really makes no difference, that's what I conclude. No matter whether chickens are really small-dinosaurs-with-feathers or not I still have to know how to fry their eggs if I want to avoid hunger.

The only thing I have seen is that YECism may be useful to argue certain kinds of people closer to the faith. Even then, won't the simple testimony of a well-lived life and the conviction of the Holy Spirit do the trick?

 

[coyoteBR]

Hm.
As I see it, according to Jesus, what matters is to Love God above everything and love your neighbour like yourself.

I don't see how a creationist view mean one love God less
I don't see how a TE view mean one love God less

 

[kenneth558]

I asked a similar question here:

http://www.christianforums.com/t2960584-if-yecism-is-faith-where-is-its-works.html

and I got a similar silence from YECs themselves....

May I break the silence?

The reason why "it" matters is because God gives us righteousness for believing Him. Like Abraham.

Some may only want enough righteousness to enter heaven. Fine. For them, they can believe in evolution and still attain their goal. They can believe their physical sight (science) and still believe that Jesus' blood cleanses from sin enough to be a child of God. Plenty of folks will get to heaven as by fire. IOW, some barely make it and are called least, others will be called greatest, others in between.

Some of us understand the importance God places on our believing even the little things He says. We want to go deeper with God than just getting to heaven in the by and by. We want to see if we can attain to being a friend of God, like Abraham. We want the POWER of the Kingdom of God, not just the words. Remember when the Apostle Paul challenged the Corinthians to a showdown of who would have the most power? (I Cor. 4:18-21). Whoever believed God the most was going to have the most power.

Let this be the end of YECs silence.

 

[vossler]

Judging by experience, it seems that the creation/evolution debate matters a great deal to Creationists. They find it difficult to fathom that other Christians can believe in evolution; therefore they keep stirring the pot.

On the other hand, if Creationists stopped their constant agitating, Theistic Evolutionists would probably carry on with life without much further ado.

In short: leave us alone, and we'll leave you alone!

The assault on TEism is a never-ending crusade (aka jihad) to the glory of God and the betterment of the Christian faith.

In the first quote you claim Creationists stir the pot and agitate TEs, yet in the second you do exactly what you claim Creationists do with terms such as "crusade" "jihad".

Quite interesting...

 

[stumpjumper]

May I break the silence?

Please do...

The reason why "it" matters is because God gives us righteousness for believing Him. Like Abraham.

Well the righteosness is transferred to us because of faith (pisteu) and that does not mean believing certain things though as pisteu is better viewed as belove or cherish...

You can belove and cherish God even if you think that Genesis 1-11 is allegory...

Some may only want enough righteousness to enter heaven. Fine. For them, they can believe in evolution and still attain their goal. They can believe their physical sight (science) and still believe that Jesus' blood cleanses from sin enough to be a child of God. Plenty of folks will get to heaven as by fire. IOW, some barely make it and are called least, others will be called greatest, others in between.

Umm.

You might want to be careful with that approach my friend. Saying that people will be baptized by fire because they are TE's is very close to crossing the line of condemnation and, as point of fact, Jesus said the first shall be last and the last shall be first so I guess it's not up to us to determine our prospective places in the next life...

We want the POWER of the Kingdom of God, not just the words. Remember when the Apostle Paul challenged the Corinthians to a showdown of who would have the most power? (I Cor. 4:18-21). Whoever believed God the most was going to have the most power.

You want the most POWER? Okay....

You can have it as I don't want any power really because God has all the power. We are to be "like little children when we enter into the Kingdom of Heavens" and I don't think that little children have all that much power...

Well, they do, but only because their parents love them...

Also, Jesus was pretty clear about his followers NOT fighting for power...

Let this be the end of YECs silence.

Indeed it has...

 

[shernren]

"Close" to crossing the line? I don't see any reason to mince words - it's far crossed the line. Talking of inheriting the Kingdom as one passing through the flames is an image from Paul describing those who have not built proper lives upon the foundation of Jesus. I am at a loss to understand how YECs propose to prove such an insinuation.

If YECism is greater faith, then it ought to have greater works. Faith is not just mere intellectual assent to a list of propositions, and more faith is not just merely being able to believe something despite more people saying it is wrong, faith is a boldness to step out and behave Christianly. Abraham had faith, and because of that faith he was willing to sacrifice his only son. AiG has "faith", and because of that "faith" it won't even whisper of an official position on the much-vaunted Sabbath. You can tell me that you have more faith than me but the only kind of faith that does not produce works is dead faith, and if faith in YECism (note that such criticism does not extend to other parts of your faith) does not produce works it is dead faith.

 

[charityagape]

Hm, if someone doesn't think its important, why do the spend time in origins theology?