Discussion Oneness Pentecostalism and gifts of the Holy Spirit

sonofedward

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Hello and greetings to all.

I currently attend a AoG church and on occasion a few different Charismatic churches, all trinitarian. Recently i've come across oneness pentecostalism and have started to study some of their history and theology. From this questions have come up and I am hoping to get different views on the subject.

From my studies on oneness theology when it comes to the gifts of the Holy Spirit they believe exactly the same thing as mainstream trinitarian pentecostalism. These gifts even manifest themselves in the same way.

These are my thoughts on the matter and please feel free to share your thoughts and ask questions.

1.God is not worried about how we view his nature when it comes to his unity and he sends his Holy Spirit either way? (if that is the case shouldn't the Holy Spirit enlighten the believers with the truth of his nature, trinity, oneness, something else?)

2. Something is wrong in the whole pentecostal movement?

3. The gifts of the Spirit manifest themselves in the same way because it is not from God but from men?

What are your thoughts?

God bless
 

CGL1023

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Hello and greetings to all.

I currently attend a AoG church and on occasion a few different Charismatic churches, all trinitarian. Recently i've come across oneness pentecostalism and have started to study some of their history and theology. From this questions have come up and I am hoping to get different views on the subject.

From my studies on oneness theology when it comes to the gifts of the Holy Spirit they believe exactly the same thing as mainstream trinitarian pentecostalism. These gifts even manifest themselves in the same way.

These are my thoughts on the matter and please feel free to share your thoughts and ask questions.

1.God is not worried about how we view his nature when it comes to his unity and he sends his Holy Spirit either way? (if that is the case shouldn't the Holy Spirit enlighten the believers with the truth of his nature, trinity, oneness, something else?)

2. Something is wrong in the whole pentecostal movement?

3. The gifts of the Spirit manifest themselves in the same way because it is not from God but from men?

What are your thoughts?

God bless
About a year ago, I attended a small United Pentecostal church. I couldn't tell for a few months that I was in a UP fellowship and I was a firm trinitarian. One thing I noticed is that they taught, I believe, the Holy Spirit came to a believer in water baptizm, which is contrary to what I am taught. I left without giving them any more of a chance to promote any more of their teaching.

After leaving I noticed how clear Paul made it that there was a Father, Son and Holy Spirit as he wrote his epistles, especially at the opening chapters, consistently. I seemed to me that there could be no mistake that there was a trinity, based on Paul's writing.

I believe the Oneness doctrine perverts the Godhead. I have seen many CF members call the Oneness doctrine false doctrine and CF doesn't invite Oneness posts, last I checked. I know that there is incessant debate with both sides using the same bible to make their case. In that respect, it reminds me of the debates involving OSAS.
 
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ToBeLoved

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Oneness Pentecostals are very bad news. My cousin, aunt and brother are in this so I researched it quite a bit.

They do not believe in the Trinity.
They do not believe that baptism is real unless ONLY done in Jesus name
They believe that tongues are mandatory for salvation
They take holiness to the extreme

Lookup UPC and oneness on Google, that is there denomination, UPC
 
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SavedByGrace3

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Unfortunately much of the information disseminated about UPC is by heresy hunters who go out of their way to misrepresent and out-right lie about their victims. I have known some UPC members and I assure you that are most certainly Christians and good ones at that. Do they have some doctrinal issues? yes, just like everyone else. We will all discover that at the BEMA seat. But that does not undo the work that Jesus did on the cross. They still believe the Gospel and His blood does not lose it's power just because they do not "toe the line" when it comes to some so-called "mainstream" doctrinalists. No need to throw out the brothers and sisters because our errors do not agree with their errors.
Let's give them the same break we all want to have.
Peace
 
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ToBeLoved

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Unfortunately much of the information disseminated about UPC is by heresy hunters who go out of their way to misrepresent and out-right lie about their victims. I have known some UPC members and I assure you that are most certainly Christians and good ones at that. Do they have some doctrinal issues? yes, just like everyone else. We will all discover that at the BEMA seat. But that does not undo the work that Jesus did on the cross. They still believe the Gospel and His blood does not lose it's power just because they do not "toe the line" when it comes to some so-called "mainstream" doctrinalists. No need to throw out the brothers and sisters because our errors do not agree with their errors.
Let's give them the same break we all want to have.
Peace
Well if you do not mind that they consider themselves to be the only true Christstian church and teach that the rest of us are going to hell, than it's not a problem for you. The baptism clause leaves no room for anyone else.
 
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SavedByGrace3

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Well if you do not mind that they consider themselves to be the only true Christstian church and teach that the rest of us are going to hell, than it's not a problem for you. The baptism clause leaves no room for anyone else.
Of course you and I know better than that. They are just wrong there. Just as many people think that if you do not lay claim to the word "trinity" then you are lost. There are all kinds of like errors. And the divisions are only in our heads. We are all one in Christ. I will fellowship with them even so.... I can get past it.
 
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now faith

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All you have to do is read the account of Phillip in Samaria.
Many were saved and water Baptized.
Phillip was called away Peter and John went to Samaria, and by laying on of hands the converts recieved the Baptism of the Holy Ghost.


Acts: 8. 12. But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. 13. Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done. 14. Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John: 15. Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost: 16. (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.) 17. Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

I commented on this due to my Nephew being taught you recieve the Baptism of the Holy Ghost by water baptism,this was in a Baptist Church.
Good people and a good Pastor but kinda confused on water Baptism.
 
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ToBeLoved

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Of course you and I know better than that. They are just wrong there. Just as many people think that if you do not lay claim to the word "trinity" then you are lost. There are all kinds of like errors. And the divisions are only in our heads. We are all one in Christ. I will fellowship with them even so.... I can get past it.
My point was not that they are not saved. My point is that they have extreme, non-Biblical doctrine and people should look very closely at it and know what they believe.

Have you ever been preached the gospel from someone who knows you are a Christian? Yet is trying to save Christians from hell, through the gospel and that one must be re-baptized Jesus Only. Have tongues. No tongues, No Holy Spirit.

Both of those things to them is sending you to hell. Now when another group tells other Christians that are saved that Biblically they are going to hell. SCREAMS to me PROBLEM PROBLEM CAUTION CAUTION.

That's dangerous. We cannot assume everyone that hears it will not be questioning God and will blow it off. They come hard. Bible verses twisted in hand.

Matthew 18:5-6
5 "And whoever receives one such child in My name receives Me; 6 but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a heavy millstone hung around his neck, and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.

They are dangerous. And preach the 'same' Jesus Christ we preach. Or so it would seem.

I hold on my stance. DANGER... DANGER..... DANGER ....

Those differences are not in my head. Those are not small things, BUT HUGE things.

I have family in this. They have ruined many relationships between people. Pitted saint against saint.
 
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Si_monfaith

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My point was not that they are not saved. My point is that they have extreme, non-Biblical doctrine and people should look very closely at it and know what they believe.

Have you ever been preached the gospel from someone who knows you are a Christian? Yet is trying to save Christians from hell, through the gospel and that one must be re-baptized Jesus Only. Have tongues. No tongues, No Holy Spirit.

Both of those things to them is sending you to hell. Now when another group tells other Christians that are saved that Biblically they are going to hell. SCREAMS to me PROBLEM PROBLEM CAUTION CAUTION.

That's dangerous. We cannot assume everyone that hears it will not be questioning God and will blow it off. They come hard. Bible verses twisted in hand.

Matthew 18:5-6
5 "And whoever receives one such child in My name receives Me; 6 but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a heavy millstone hung around his neck, and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.

They are dangerous. And preach the 'same' Jesus Christ we preach. Or so it would seem.

I hold on my stance. DANGER... DANGER..... DANGER ....

Those differences are not in my head. Those are not small things, BUT HUGE things.

I have family in this. They have ruined many relationships between people. Pitted saint against saint.
Focussing on the self & works is dangerous. Look to Jesus alone(heb12:1,2).
 
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Razare

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1.God is not worried about how we view his nature when it comes to his unity and he sends his Holy Spirit either way? (if that is the case shouldn't the Holy Spirit enlighten the believers with the truth of his nature, trinity, oneness, something else?)

The problem is even by the trinity doctrine, those who really understand this doctrine, understand that this knowledge surpasses the natural knowledge available to men. So we believe it in faith, not in intellect.

The trinity doctrine makes about diddly squat sense intellectually. The *best* intellectual explanation of the trinity I have found is in information theory... but even this explanation is woefully insufficient compared to the reality of Christ, the Father, and the Holy Spirit... but it does give our limited mental understanding something to chew on to make it feel like it understands it a little better. Here is the explanation:

img10.gif

Shannon-Weaver Communication Model discovered in 1948

This is the theoretical basis of all communication, including communication in the computer revolution.

The simplest way to draw this chart is with, Sender -> Signal -> Decoder. The decoder, decodes so that the recipient/destination can understand the message.

With the trinity, the information source is the Father God. He is the will of God.

The signal is Christ, who is the word of God (logos).

The spoken word (rhema) is the Holy Spirit, which is God's word in action, from the will of the Father, according to the Logos, acting upon reality (decoding the logos = rhema).

This is the mechanism of God's operation. But dumbing it down this much isn't exactly the truth, but it's an illustration.

We can see this unfolding of God working in Genesis 1.

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God [breath of God, Holy Spirit, that which decodes and brings to pass God's word] was hovering over the face of the waters. Then God said, “Let there be light [the word / Christ]”; and there was light. 4 And God saw the light, that it was good [The Father, the will and character of God];

I think if you want to say God is one, and then include Christ as God and the Holy Spirit as God then that's fine. I mean, certainly the Oneness movement doesn't see the Holy Spirit as a separate entity? Neither should they see Christ as a separate from God.

But either way you go with the doctrine, trinity or God is one described in 3 ways, both are wrong, because both are intellectual understandings.

What matters is believing scripture in faith, and not doctrines of men. In a poem I wrote, I put the line, "When God's word is silent all creation echos."

Even if you are in the singleness of God camp, Christ is still God's word. God without his word, means that God can't speak. God loses the ability to speak because he no longer has words, if those words were in Sheol during Christ's death on the cross. I do personally believe during those 3 days, it was the darkest moment in all time. The spirit of God, could only do what was already prophesied by God in the past, but new revelation? New words from God? The Spirit had only what had Christ established in dominion and authority on Earth.

And so God himself would have failed had Christ not been raised by the words already spoken. And God could utter no other word to change it, because the Father had only one begotten Son as the word.

2. Something is wrong in the whole pentecostal movement?

They're a bit legalistic often. There are some people in the grace Pentecostal movement, and that's where I get my doctrine from.

3. The gifts of the Spirit manifest themselves in the same way because it is not from God but from men?

There are fake gifts in manifestation. Real being slain in the spirit vs. just choosing to fall over. There is also such a thing as expectation. People can behave according to expectation, this is the principle hypnotism falls under. It's a demonic practice, but no one who believes in it will be hypnotized because they wont allow that on themselves.

So just because sometimes it goes astray doesn't mean there aren't gifts in manifestation.... but these should be the gifts according to the word of God, found in 1 Corinthians 12... concerning miraculous gifts, not the character quality gifts in Galatians 5:22.

1 Corinthian 12 Gifts:

1. Word of wisdom
2. Word of Knowledge
3. Prophecy
4. Tongues
5. Interpretation of Tongues
6. Miracles
7. Supernatural Faith
8. Gifts of Healings
9. Discerning of Spirits

Tongues, if you study it from scripture, has 3 manifestations. 1 - As a sign to unbelievers 2 - As spoken ministry to the church where interpretation is present, so to make tongues equivalent to prophecy which is for the edification of the church 3 - As prayer language to be spoken to God, which edifies the one who speaks it.

In the OT, they had 7 gifts. But if you study history and Jewish tradition, they also had Tongues in the OT, but you wont find it in the scripture that I have read.

But the Jews know that when the High Priest entered the Holy of Hollies on the day of atonement once a year, in there he could speak a supernatural language of heaven.

My favorite gift is supernatural faith. God gave me all kinds of ordinary faith, the faith of Abraham and the faith of God himself. But supernatural faith is great stuff... it usually works with a miracle... or maybe like word of wisdom. I don't totally understand it, I just know it's pretty dang awesome when it happens!
 
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Hoghead1

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About a year ago, I attended a small United Pentecostal church. I couldn't tell for a few months that I was in a UP fellowship and I was a firm trinitarian. One thing I noticed is that they taught, I believe, the Holy Spirit came to a believer in water baptizm, which is contrary to what I am taught. I left without giving them any more of a chance to promote any more of their teaching.

After leaving I noticed how clear Paul made it that there was a Father, Son and Holy Spirit as he wrote his epistles, especially at the opening chapters, consistently. I seemed to me that there could be no mistake that there was a trinity, based on Paul's writing.

I believe the Oneness doctrine perverts the Godhead. I have seen many CF members call the Oneness doctrine false doctrine and CF doesn't invite Oneness posts, last I checked. I know that there is incessant debate with both sides using the same bible to make their case. In that respect, it reminds me of the debates involving OSAS.
Uck oh. Yes, there could be a very big confusion about the trinity created by Paul's opening remarks. Almost always, he opens in the name of the Father and Son, and says nothing at all about the Spirit, in his greeting.
 
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Razare

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<staff edit>

It's logical to assume we are incapable of understanding God fully. The Bible teaches this even.

"we see through a glass darkly" - 1 Corinthians 13:12

And if you've ever operated in the spirit, your carnal logical mind can grasp how stupid it is.

Once during a dream, God was with me, showing me how much joy there is in heaven. He was turning trees marvelous colors, like pink bubble gum or beautiful blues, and every time he would do it I would laugh and laugh. It was the funniest thing that I know about ever since I was created. Then I woke up. Then my human intellectual mind took over and I was out of the spirit, and my mind no longer comprehended it.

I can remember it, but memory is not the same as living in it.

So when I say I can't comprehend God fully, this is logical, rational, and scriptural in the purest sense and not an excuse.

And it doesn't make God foolish, or our belief in faith false, for many spiritual concepts from scripture surpass our mental ability to understand them, including all miracles and salvation itself.

And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus. - Philippians 4:7

to know the love of Christ which passes knowledge; that you may be filled with all the fullness of God. - Ephesians 3:19

So the most rational position is for our minds to realize their limitations, accept those limitations and then we're able to realize we have treasures that dwell in the spirit which indwells us, and we rely on that first and foremost... and certainly in the spirit we can comprehend all the doctrines of God, but it has nothing to do with reasoning of our mind. Our mind is not our spirit.
 
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SavedByGrace3

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Quoted from the book "The Mechanics and Practice of Speaking in Tongues" - C. Alan Martin

“It should be noted that, while there are Hellenistic parallels for tongues, there is also an OT basis. Thus the seers of 1 Sam. 10:5ff. seem to be robbed of their individuality, and their fervor finds expression in broken cries and unintelligible speech (cf. 2 Kgs. 9:11). Drunkards mock Isaiah’s babbling speech (Is. 28:10-11). The later literature, e.g., Eth. En. 71:11, gives similar examples of ecstatic speech (not necessarily speaking in tongues).”

The Theological Dictionary of the New Testament
 
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