Once Saved, Always Saved?

[Stillicidia]

I would say it this way, all those outside of Christ cannot do anything through Christ.

God can use people who hardly know him.

Even miracle workers who are outside of him, are worked through for the sake of those that are watching.

 

[PuerAzaelis]

Like many theological disputes, this one is simply a matter of distinguishing between relative and absolute truths. Since one is the foundation for the other, the question is not one of right or wrong, but rather when it is appropriate to use one and when it is appropriate to use the other.

 

[spiritman]

God can use people who hardly know him.

Even miracle workers who are outside of him, are worked through for the sake of those that are watching.

In order for someone to do things through Christ one must first be in Christ.
Joh 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

 

[Stillicidia]

In order for someone to do things through Christ one must first be in Christ.
Joh 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Then what of those that do something, who are yet without? Are they not what is written about the sheep and the goats?

 

[ScottA]

Is this your way of saying, I made an assumption before hearing what you had to say? Some people have a propensity of jumping to (false) conclusions.

What do you mean by "the new of Christ"?

No...you were going on and on without bringing the most important part to the forefront. And though you may not disagree or even realize that you were marginalizing the Good News of all that Christ has done...it was apparent to me from the sidelines, and would likely have been missed completely by those who need clarification and understanding on the matter of being saved.

Anyway, I do not question your position...just wanted to get in (not "the new", but) the good news of the salvation of Christ...as it is Job #1 for those who know and follow Christ.

God bless.

 

[spiritman]

Then what of those that do something, who are yet without? Are they not what is written about the sheep and the goats?

I agree. Good reference.

 

[spiritman]

No...you were going on and on without bringing the most important part to the forefront. And though you may not disagree or even realize that you were marginalizing the Good News of all that Christ has done...it was apparent to me from the sidelines, and would likely have been missed completely by those who need clarification and understanding on the matter of being saved.

Anyway, I do not question your position...just wanted to get in (not "the new", but) the good news of the salvation of Christ...as it is Job #1 for those who know and follow Christ.

God bless.

"No...you were going on and on without bringing the most important part to the forefront. And though you may not disagree or even realize that you were marginalizing the Good News of all that Christ has done..."

Your comments are interesting to me. I'm even somewhat amazed at your conclusions. I like to stay on the focal point of a discussion and address one issue at a time. Each statement needs to be analyzed and the truth determined. From the start of your discussion with me you jumped to conclusions without knowing the facts. I would suggest you stay with the comments I actually make for discussion and not delve into your opinions of what I may or may not believe.

You stated in your comments that I should have brought to light something you believe. If you don't mind I like to bring to the forefront what I think should be said at a given time. As I mentioned before, I like to stay on the subject discussed in this thread.

To disprove your false accusation of "marginalizing the Good News of all that Christ has done...", I'd be happy to explain to you what I believe Christ has accomplished for us. But as you know this is not the thread for such discussions. Perhaps another thread?

Grace and Peace

 

[ScottA]

"No...you were going on and on without bringing the most important part to the forefront. And though you may not disagree or even realize that you were marginalizing the Good News of all that Christ has done..."

Your comments are interesting to me. I'm even somewhat amazed at your conclusions. I like to stay on the focal point of a discussion and address one issue at a time. Each statement needs to be analyzed and the truth determined. From the start of your discussion with me you jumped to conclusions without knowing the facts. I would suggest you stay with the comments I actually make for discussion and not delve into your opinions of what I may or may not believe.

You stated in your comments that I should have brought to light something you believe. If you don't mind I like to bring to the forefront what I think should be said at a given time. As I mentioned before, I like to stay on the subject discussed in this thread.

To disprove your false accusation of "marginalizing the Good News of all that Christ has done...", I'd be happy to explain to you what I believe Christ has accomplished for us. But as you know this is not the thread for such discussions. Perhaps another thread?

Grace and Peace

The topic is that of salvation. I gave you a hard time for leaving out the most important part. I did that, and now it's done. Do as you will.

 

[spiritman]

Another reason why I don't believe in the doctrine OSAS.

Rev 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

 

[spiritman]

Another reason why I don't believe in the doctrine of OSAS.

Re 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

 

[ScottA]

Another reason why I don't believe in the doctrine of OSAS.

Re 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Who is "my son" in that passage?

 

[Lord Kyrios]

Shalom,

Read John 15:1-6, now look at the following verses:

1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the vintner. 2 He cuts off every branch that does not produce fruit in me, and he cuts back every branch that does produce fruit, so that it might produce more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of what I’ve spoken to you.

4 Abide in me, and I will abide in you. Just as the branch cannot produce fruit by itself unless it abides in the vine, neither can you unless you abide in me. 5 I am the vine, you are the branches. The one who abides in me while I abide in him produces much fruit, because apart from me you can do nothing. 6 Unless a person abides in me, he is thrown away like a pruned branch and dries up. People gather such branches, throw them into a fire, and they are burned up.
​

Now, read Romans 11:17-22 then think about the following:

17 Now if some of the branches have been broken off, and you, a wild olive branch, have been grafted in their place to share the rich root of the olive tree, 18 do not boast about being better than the other branches. If you boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 Then you will say, “Branches were cut off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 That’s right! They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you remain only because of faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid! 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he certainly will not spare you, either.

22 Consider, then, the kindness and severity of God: his severity toward those who fell, but God’s kindness toward you—if you continue receiving his kindness. Otherwise, you too will be cut off.​

In John's gospel, the plant is a vine plant and we are branches and Yeshua is the vine. In Romans the plant is a fig tree and it is speaking of Israel as a body and implies that it is Yeshua. In both parables, we are the branches and in both parables we are in the Messiah and partake of the life of the plant which is THE HOLY SPIRIT. In both parables, the branches that have no fruit are cut off.

This implies quite clearly and without contradiction that a saved person with the SPIRIT OF GOD can be cut off.

Now, read Revelation 3:5 and ask yourself why Yeshua mentions not being blotted out of the book of life. Because it is possible to be blotted out.

5 The person who overcomes in this way will wear white clothes, and I will never erase his name from the Book of Life. I will acknowledge his name in the presence of my Father and his angels.​

The question we must now ask ourselves is:
Do we still believe that we cannot lose our salvation after being given THE SPIRIT OF GOD? If so, what does the above verses mean if not what it says?

If the question is, " Once save, always saved", then the word "Back slide" would not be in the Bible. If you can back slide, you can lose your faith. Remember King Saul, he was once a saved King but then he back slide. You can slide without even realizing you sliding. Did you know
Jesus Is called Kupios & God Is called Kupios In The Greek Bible. Every Title that applies to God, also applies to Jesus in the Greek.
Example: Jesus is Kupie, Kupiw, Kupiou and God is Kupie, Kupiw, Kupiou. Jesus is God Because His Father is God.
In other words, Your Son inherited your last name so why cannot Jesus be called by His Father's Name, GOD?

 

[דוד חֵן (David)]

If the question is, " Once save, always saved", then the word "Back slide" would not be in the Bible. If you can back slide, you can lose your faith. Remember King Saul, he was once a saved King but then he back slide. You can slide without even realizing you sliding. Did you know
Jesus Is called Kupios & God Is called Kupios In The Greek Bible. Every Title that applies to God, also applies to Jesus in the Greek.
Example: Jesus is Kupie, Kupiw, Kupiou and God is Kupie, Kupiw, Kupiou. Jesus is God Because His Father is God.
In other words, Your Son inherited your last name so why cannot Jesus be called by His Father's Name, GOD?

Because Jesus is God.

 

[ScottA]

If the question is, " Once save, always saved", then the word "Back slide" would not be in the Bible. If you can back slide, you can lose your faith.

The question is not about "back sliding" but about being "saved."

Back sliding describes someone on there way to being saved, who turns and goes back. At that point they are not "saved" yet.

 

[spiritman]

Who is "my son" in that passage?

I think the answer is obvious. "He that overcomes." If you are implying that it's Jesus. that would certainly be an error. Jesus already overcame and now it's up to us to do likewise.

Joh 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

 

[ScottA]

I think the answer is obvious. "He that overcomes." If you are implying that it's Jesus. that would certainly be an error. Jesus already overcame and now it's up to us to do likewise.

Joh 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

How are you suggesting one overcomes?

 

[spiritman]

How are you suggesting one overcomes?

This may be elementary but the first step is to be a believer. Now let me define a believer according to God's Word. It's important to define because man has his own definition and God has His. To be a believer according to the scriptures one will obey His Word. Man says all you need, is to agree, without necessarily doing anything. Sometimes referred to as “mental assent”.

James 1:22 states: But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

Self deception is rampant. There is the need to periodicaly examine ourselves. 2Co 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

We have to believe what God says in His Word is true. Faith is an important element in order to be an overcomer. In fact without faith it's impossible to please God. Heb 11:6

1Jo 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

1Jo 5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

So we see from these verses that one has to have faith in Jesus to be an overcomer. Now let's look at some other passages regarding His Word on overcoming. But before we go any further we should also mention what it is we are to overcome.

From I John 5:4-5 we see that we are to overcome the world. That would of course include all the challenges, obstacles, sin, flesh, trials, temptations, persecutions, and tribulations of life on planet earth.

Mt 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

How are we to overcome?

By our faith.

1Jo 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
IJo 5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

Because Christ lives in us.

1Jo 4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Because the Word of God abides in us.

1Jo 2:14 I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.

Because Jesus overcame the world and He lives in us.

Joh 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

Because we are more than conquerors through Him.

Ro 8:37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

Because He strengthens us.

Php 4:13 I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.

Because we are free from sin.

Ro 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.


Ro 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

Because sin no longer has rule over us.

Ro 6:14 For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

Peace

 

[ScottA]

This may be elementary but the first step is to be a believer. Now let me define a believer according to God's Word. It's important to define because man has his own definition and God has His. To be a believer according to the scriptures one will obey His Word. Man says all you need, is to agree, without necessarily doing anything. Sometimes referred to as “mental assent”.

James 1:22 states: But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

Self deception is rampant. There is the need to periodicaly examine ourselves. 2Co 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

We have to believe what God says in His Word is true. Faith is an important element in order to be an overcomer. In fact without faith it's impossible to please God. Heb 11:6

1Jo 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

1Jo 5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

So we see from these verses that one has to have faith in Jesus to be an overcomer. Now let's look at some other passages regarding His Word on overcoming. But before we go any further we should also mention what it is we are to overcome.

From I John 5:4-5 we see that we are to overcome the world. That would of course include all the challenges, obstacles, sin, flesh, trials, temptations, persecutions, and tribulations of life on planet earth.

Mt 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

How are we to overcome?

By our faith.

1Jo 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
IJo 5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

Because Christ lives in us.

1Jo 4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Because the Word of God abides in us.

1Jo 2:14 I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.

Because Jesus overcame the world and He lives in us.

Joh 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

Because we are more than conquerors through Him.

Ro 8:37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

Because He strengthens us.

Php 4:13 I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.

Because we are free from sin.

Ro 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.


Ro 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

Because sin no longer has rule over us.

Ro 6:14 For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

Peace

So...who do you say is responsible for overcoming - who actually fulfills it?

 

[spiritman]

So...who do you say is responsible for overcoming?

Apparently, you didn't read all of the scriptures provided. If you had I would think you might have understood. Please read and then tell me your conclusion. If after reading you still don't know I'll be happy to shed more light for you.

 

[spiritman]

Another reason why I don't believe in the doctrine of OSAS.

Joh 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

Note the words " in me". Obviously in Christ and yet cast into the fire and burned because he didn't abide/continue in Christ.

Joh 15:6 If a man abide ( continue) not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.