once saved always saved?

[Bible Highlighter]

Sorry Jason. I'm taking another extended break from CF. I'll talk with you later.

May God bless you.
And may His goodness overflow abundantly for you in all things (according to His Word).


...

 

[Charlie24]

Yes, that was my mistake. My apologies. I quoted the wrong article at Gotquestions. However, "Jesus is Saviour" website appears to disagree with you, though.

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False Religions/UCC/ucc.htm

Oh and no. I do not support or believe everything taught by "Gotquestions" or "Jesus-is-Savior" websites because they erroneously believe in OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved).


...

I've been a member at the grace centered forum for several years. I've had some rough arguements on baptismal regeneration that the mods had to take over. Everything I know about the COC I learned there. This is a large group that definately believes in baptismal regeneration, they outnumber the saved by grace only crowd.

They do not believe OSAS, I think that's the only thing we had in common.

 

[FreeGrace2]

OSAS it is.

OSAS is true because when we are saved, our covenant with Jesus, the New and Everlasting Covenant is SEALED with the Holy Spirit. And we are given the Holy Spirit.

Amen!

Since the New Covenant is sealed by the Holy Spirit, to break the covenant would mean that the SEAL of the covenant would need to be broken. Therefore, the Holy Spirit must leave the believer if the person is no longer saved. However, the Holy Spirit has never left a believer and Jesus would never break His Covenant with us.

Amen!

So how can OSAS not be true?

Of course, it is true.

 

[FreeGrace2]

You keep repeating John 10:28-29. But you fail to quote verse 27. I wonder why? Well, whether it was intentional or unintentional, verse 27 gives us the piece of the puzzle to our understanding for verses 28-29. Verse 27 says,

“My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:”

This is the type of sheep that cannot be snatched out of the Lord's hand. They are sheep that FOLLOW Jesus. These are not sheep who are lazy and or who are being dragged by their necks on leashes. ...‭

No, v.27 doesn't define His sheep. John 10:9 does that:
"I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved. He will come in and go out, and find pasture."

There are many many verses that say that those who BELIEVE will be saved, so 10:9 uses "entering the gate" as a metaphor for believing in Jesus Christ as Savior.

So v.9 is where the context begins for who His sheep are. Believers. Not just believers who follow Him. But all who have believed in Him.

 

[DingDing]

Well, maybe there are different branches of the UCC (or members who do not agree with this teaching). But Gotquestions says they do believe in Baptismal Salvation.

http://www.gotquestions.org/Church-of-Christ.html


...

Not wanting to jump in where I'm not wanted, but I attended a CoC as a kid (13-18 years old) back in the 70's, and the one I went to definitely believed and taught that the physical act of baptism saved. And if you weren't baptized by their denomination, you were going straight to hell. Might as well kiss your butt good-bye.

 

[Albion]

Well, maybe there are different branches of the UCC (or members who do not agree with this teaching).

No, there aren't different branches. That's the name of a certain (and well-known) denomination. If some members disagree with something it teaches, you were still mistaken to identify the Churches of Christ with the United Church of Christ.

 

[Albion]

Why are you talking now about an off topic discussion with this post?

Because it seems that the topic here (OSAS) has gotten diverted at times into at least two other topics.

Not only ought we all attempt to stay on topic, but it's confusing when people answer to a comment about one concept by talking about one of the others. See post 1096 for a refresher.

 

[DingDing]

No, there aren't different branches. That's the name of a certain (and well-known) denomination. If some members disagree with something it teaches, you were still mistaken to identify the Churches of Christ with the United Church of Christ.

It might be off-topic, and I will stop with this post, but from my experience there is definite overlap between some parts of the CoC and the UCoC, just saying.

 

[Albion]

It might be off-topic, and I will stop with this post, but from my experience there is definite overlap between some parts of the CoC and the UCoC, just saying.

Historically speaking, a real connection would be hard to prove, but of course also, these are two non-liturgical Protestant movements/churches so there are going to be similarities. On this particular issue, though, there doesn't seem to be any overlap.

 

[farout]

You keep repeating John 10:28-29. But you fail to quote verse 27. I wonder why? Well, whether it was intentional or unintentional, verse 27 gives us the piece of the puzzle to our understanding for verses 28-29. Verse 27 says,

“My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:”

This is the type of sheep that cannot be snatched out of the Lord's hand. They are sheep that FOLLOW Jesus. These are not sheep who are lazy and or who are being dragged by their necks on leashes.


...
‭‭

In order to be saved a believer is always a FOLLOWER even at the first introduction to Christ. This should be the basic understanding by those who choose to become a Follower, who Jesus accepts and calls them his own. I have never said anything different and I have not ignored verse 27, as we were dealing with the Fathers ability to keep us ETERNALY SECURE held in His Salvation which Jesus bought me and all the other true FOLLOWER's by paying for us with HIS BLOOD ON THE CROSS. Genuine Follower's or as Jesus calls us "Friends" are given the Holy Spirit which resides within us as a guarantee that we are His.

Those who say they are followers but fall away, were not genuine,, Hebrews 6 deals with this.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

In order to be saved a believer is always a FOLLOWER even at the first introduction to Christ. This should be the basic understanding by those who choose to become a Follower, who Jesus accepts and calls them his own. I have never said anything different and I have not ignored verse 27, as we were dealing with the Fathers ability to keep us ETERNALY SECURE held in His Salvation which Jesus bought me and all the other true FOLLOWER's by paying for us with HIS BLOOD ON THE CROSS. Genuine Follower's or as Jesus calls us "Friends" are given the Holy Spirit which resides within us as a guarantee that we are His.

Those who say they are followers but fall away, were not genuine,, Hebrews 6 deals with this.

No. Hebrews 6 is not dealing with backsliding into sin but it is about denying Jesus Christ as one's savior after having been enlightened by the Holy Spirit. This is the context of Hebrews 6:4-6. It says in verse 1, "Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God." (Hebrews 6:1). It is talking about laying the foundation of repentance. NOT Sanctification or walking in holiness. Yes, repentance (crying out to God to save you and seeking forgiveness of your sins with God) leads to a life of holiness. But it is not an overnight process. Many times believers have to learn to put those dark things out of their life as they read God's Word and or study with other believers.

There are many believers (myself included) who have backslidden into a life of sin after serving the Lord beforehand. I was on fire for the Lord and I knew I was saved the instant I repented of my sins (by way of a Chick Tract called "This was your life."). I had an assurance in Jesus as my Savior and I wanted everyone to feel as I did by accepting Jesus. But when I backslid into a life of sin and the ways of this world (still believing in Jesus as my Savior) I repented of my backslidden way of life (Like the Prodigal Son had done) and came back and knew I was saved again. For in the Parable of the Prodigal Son, the father said the Son was dead and is alive again (two times). This was speaking in spiritual terms and not physical terms.

As for the blood of Jesus Christ: One can only have the blood cleanse them of all sin if they walk in the light as He is in the light. This is what 1 John 1:7 essentially says (of which you may not have an argument with me over).

The Bible is all about warnings in not falling.

"Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall" (1 Corinthians 10:12).

This warning would be meaningless if it was not talking about falling away from the faith. For the Bible is a book about the spiritual instruction of safe guarding our souls.

...

 

[DingDing]

Historically speaking, a real connection would be hard to prove, but of course also, these are two non-liturgical Protestant movements/churches so there are going to be similarities. On this particular issue, though, there doesn't seem to be any overlap.

I speak from experience, not sure where you are coming from.

 

[Albion]

I speak from experience, not sure where you are coming from.

Settle this, then, by telling us what you have in mind when you say there's some "overlap" in belief between the Campbellite movement and the Congregational Church that was renamed the United Church of Christ in recent years.

 

[DingDing]

Settle this, then, by telling us what you have in mind when you say there's some "overlap" in belief between the Campbellite movement and the Congregationalist Church that was renamed the United Church of Christ in recent years.

I made my comment, and I am done with this conversation.

 

[sdowney717]

I think there is another possible interpretation of God's (Christ's) meaning which should be considered. So what is your understanding of Ez. 18 and Psalm 103; and how do these play into a possible understanding of what Jesus says in Matthew 7:23? (Plus, there are so many other passages which should be considered.)

Ezekiel 18 is in the Old Testament part of the Old Covenant whereby people had a different covenant with God.
Although all the righteous in the OC, God said would still live by their faith, not by their works, as do those in the NC.
Paul brings this up in Romans quoting from Habakkuk, as he says from faith to faith.
A faithful man will not be doing wicked works now will they? Jesus and God knows us by our faith in Him as it says Abraham was justified by faith, justified by God because of Abraham believing what God had spoken to him, then afterwards with the works following in confirming affirmation.

Ezekiel also talks about getting a new heart. Unless you get the new heart from God, then you are still the old man, not a new spiritual man created according to righteousness and holiness in Christ Jesus. The flesh is flesh and is death. The Spirit of God bears to Himself children who have eternal life and such is now spirit and is made alive in the Spirit. Did not Abraham also have life in the Spirit, even though long before Christ come in the flesh? This is all of the gift of God.

Some supporting verses follow.

John 3:6
That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Ezekiel 11:19
Then I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within them, and take the stony heart out of their flesh, and give them aheart of flesh,
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Ezekiel 18:31
Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. For why should you die, O house of Israel?


Romans 1:17
For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “The just shall live by faith.”

Habakkuk 2 New King James Version (NKJV)
1 I will stand my watch
And set myself on the rampart,
And watch to see what He will say to me,
And what I will answer when I am corrected.

The Just Live by Faith
2 Then the Lord answered me and said:

“Write the vision
And make it plain on tablets,
That he may run who reads it.
3 For the vision is yet for an appointed time;
But at the end it will speak, and it will not lie.
Though it tarries, wait for it;
Because it will surely come,
It will not tarry.

4 “Behold the proud,
His soul is not upright in him;
But the just shall live by his faith.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Because it seems that the topic here (OSAS) has gotten diverted at times into at least two other topics.

Not only ought we all attempt to stay on topic, but it's confusing when people answer to a comment about one concept by talking about one of the others. See post 1096 for a refresher.

bump

 

[farout]

No. Hebrews 6 is not dealing with backsliding into sin but it is about denying Jesus Christ as one's savior after having been enlightened by the Holy Spirit. This is the context of Hebrews 6:4-6. It says in verse 1, "Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God." (Hebrews 6:1). It is talking about laying the foundation of repentance. NOT Sanctification or walking in holiness. Yes, repentance (crying out to God to save you and seeking forgiveness of your sins with God) leads to a life of holiness. But it is not an overnight process. Many times believers have to learn to put those dark things out of their life as they read God's Word and or study with other believers.

There are many believers (myself included) who have backslidden into a life of sin after serving the Lord beforehand. I was on fire for the Lord and I knew I was saved the instant I repented of my sins (by way of a Chick Tract called "This was your life."). I had an assurance in Jesus as my Savior and I wanted everyone to feel as I did by accepting Jesus. But when I backslid into a life of sin and the ways of this world (still believing in Jesus as my Savior) I repented of my backslidden way of life (Like the Prodigal Son had done) and came back and knew I was saved again. For in the Parable of the Prodigal Son, the father said the Son was dead and is alive again (two times). This was speaking in spiritual terms and not physical terms.

As for the blood of Jesus Christ: One can only have the blood cleanse them of all sin if they walk in the light as He is in the light. This is what 1 John 1:7 essentially says (of which you may not have an argument with me over).

The Bible is all about warnings in not falling.

"Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall" (1 Corinthians 10:12).

This warning would be meaningless if it was not talking about falling away from the faith. For the Bible is a book about the spiritual instruction of safe guarding our souls.

...

Brother Jason. I am confused. I thought you were against OSAS and now you agree with it. Does that mean you have changed you mind?

I lean toward a Calvinistic view point. If a person swings too far into sin then that would possible mean they were not saved in the first place. For how long can a person remain in a very sinful life before they come to the realization they were never saved at all. On the other side of the coin is is there sins a Christian can not commit, except to lie to the Holy Spirit and walk totally away from Christ until he dies?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Brother Jason. I am confused. I thought you were against OSAS and now you agree with it. Does that mean you have changed you mind?

Well, you must have misunderstood what I said. I can assure you, I am still very strongly against Once Saved Always Saved or Eternal Security and always will be. For me it is an attack on morality itself and in the lighter version of Eternal Security I believe it is an attack on the assurance that one can be saved by simply believing (because they believe that if one backslides into sin, they were more than likely never born again to begin with).

Anyways, salvation is not Works Alone Salvationism (Anti-Grace or no need for Jesus who is our Savior) and salvation is not Belief Alone Salvationism (that leads to Anti-Moralism or Lawlessness). James says,

"You see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).

James of course was talking about Christ directed works done in you. While in Romans 4, Paul is talking about Man Directed Works Alone Salvationism.

Salvation is Relationship-ism. Salvation is Jesus Christ whereby He saves you both in Justification (by your believing in Him) and in Sanctification (by your allowing Him to do His good work in you - John 15:5). Salvation is abiding in the Son who is our source of life (1 John 5:12). If one abides in the Son, good fruit and not bad fruit will be evident within their life. This is why Paul says, Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates? (2 Corinthians 13:5).

I lean toward a Calvinistic view point.

I find Calvinism to be a scary belief to hold to because it makes it look like one is saying God is not really loving or good. For God does not want some to be saved? If God is Sovereign and has the power to save all people, then why doesn't He? Why would God wish ill will upon anyone? Is not God good?

As for the most extreme level of Calvinism God is the author of evil. This is so wrong on so many levels I shouldn't even need to explain why it is wrong.

Anyways, when I think about Calvinism in general: I get the impression that God is just pulling everyone's strings against their wills making this life meaningless in what they do. For if God predetermines everying, then what you do would not really matter. But that is not what the Bible teaches or what real life teaches us. The Judgment would not exist if God determined some to be saved and others to not be saved. That would be like judging a rock for being a rock. That wouldn't make any sense. But then again, you are free to believe whatever you like. But let's not kid each other here. You did not learn of Calvinism from reading the Bible by the Spirit on your own. You learned it from a man. Which is a big difference.

If a person swings too far into sin then that would possible mean they were not saved in the first place.

So you are of the Mid Range Type OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved)? That a believer must generally live a holy life, but if they die in one or two unrepentant sins like lying or lusting after a woman they are still saved?

For is there really any difference between committing a lot of sin versus a little bit of sin?
How many sins did it take for Adam to cause a separation between God and man?
It only took one sin.
And Adam was created to be a part of God's good creation.
So God did not place in Adam for him to be dead spiritually or to be inclined to so as to do evil.
Adam was created with a good nature.
Yet, Adam acted contrary to his good and sinned of his own free will.
God is not a respecter of persons.
The same conditions that were placed upon Adam are placed upon you and me.
if not, then God would be playing favorites or He would be into favoritism.

For how long can a person remain in a very sinful life before they come to the realization they were never saved at all. On the other side of the coin is is there sins a Christian can not commit, except to lie to the Holy Spirit and walk totally away from Christ until he dies?

The Parable of the Prodigal Son, James 5:19-20 and other passages clearly show us that a person can be saved at one point and then die spiritually and then come back to the faith to the saving of their souls. It's why Jude speaks of those who are twice dead. They were dead once when they were an unbeliever and they are dead a second time when they fell away from Christ. It's why the Bible tells you to take heed that you stand unless you fall. If falling was not an option, then the Bible would not use such language. For when the prodigal son came home (seeking forgiveness before heaven and his father), his father said that he was dead and is now alive again. This was speaking in spiritual terms.


...

 

[ToBeLoved]

Well, you must have misunderstood what I said. I can assure you, I am still very strongly against Once Saved Always Saved or Eternal Security and always will be. For me it is an attack on morality itself and in the lighter version of Eternal Security I believe it is an attack on the assurance that one can be saved by simply believing (because they believe that if one backslides into sin, they were more than likely never born again to begin with).

So if one day the Holy Spirit tells you "Jason you have been wrong all these years. Telling all these people the wrong thing and I want you to know that I will never leave you or any of the other Children that I indwell. I will always be with you." That wouldn't change your mind?

Maybe the Holy Spirit can't teach you because you already decided that your not listening.

 

[farout]

Well, you must have misunderstood what I said. I can assure you, I am still very strongly against Once Saved Always Saved or Eternal Security and always will be. For me it is an attack on morality itself and in the lighter version of Eternal Security I believe it is an attack on the assurance that one can be saved by simply believing (because they believe that if one backslides into sin, they were more than likely never born again to begin with).

Anyways, salvation is not Works Alone Salvationism (Anti-Grace or no need for Jesus who is our Savior) and salvation is not Belief Alone Salvationism (that leads to Anti-Moralism or Lawlessness). James says,

"You see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).

James of course was talking about Christ directed works done in you. While in Romans 4, Paul is talking about Man Directed Works Alone Salvationism.

Salvation is Relationship-ism. Salvation is Jesus Christ whereby He saves you both in Justification (by your believing in Him) and in Sanctification (by your allowing Him to do His good work in you - John 15:5). Salvation is abiding in the Son who is our source of life (1 John 5:12). If one abides in the Son, good fruit and not bad fruit will be evident within their life. This is why Paul says, Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates? (2 Corinthians 13:5).



I find Calvinism to be a scary belief to hold to because it makes it look like one is saying God is not really loving or good. For God does not want some to be saved? If God is Sovereign and has the power to save all people, then why doesn't He? Why would God wish ill will upon anyone? Is not God good?

As for the most extreme level of Calvinism God is the author of evil. This is so wrong on so many levels I shouldn't even need to explain why it is wrong.

Anyways, when I think about Calvinism in general: I get the impression that God is just pulling everyone's strings against their wills making this life meaningless in what they do. For if God predetermines everying, then what you do would not really matter. But that is not what the Bible teaches or what real life teaches us. The Judgment would not exist if God determined some to be saved and others to not be saved. That would be like judging a rock for being a rock. That wouldn't make any sense. But then again, you are free to believe whatever you like. But let's not kid each other here. You did not learn of Calvinism from reading the Bible by the Spirit on your own. You learned it from a man. Which is a big difference.



So you are of the Mid Range Type OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved)? That a believer must generally live a holy life, but if they die in one or two unrepentant sins like lying or lusting after a woman they are still saved?

For is there really any difference between committing a lot of sin versus a little bit of sin?
How many sins did it take for Adam to cause a separation between God and man?
It only took one sin.
And Adam was created to be a part of God's good creation.
So God did not place in Adam for him to be dead spiritually or to be inclined to so as to do evil.
Adam was created with a good nature.
Yet, Adam acted contrary to his good and sinned of his own free will.
God is not a respecter of persons.
The same conditions that were placed upon Adam are placed upon you and me.
if not, then God would be playing favorites or He would be into favoritism.



The Parable of the Prodigal Son, James 5:19-20 and other passages clearly show us that a person can be saved at one point and then die spiritually and then come back to the faith to the saving of their souls. It's why Jude speaks of those who are twice dead. They were dead once when they were an unbeliever and they are dead a second time when they fell away from Christ. It's why the Bible tells you to take heed that you stand unless you fall. If falling was not an option, then the Bible would not use such language. For when the prodigal son came home (seeking forgiveness before heaven and his father), his father said that he was dead and is now alive again. This was speaking in spiritual terms.


...

There is a lot to address in what you have said. For me there is a tenseness in in understanding what you personally believe and then putting it down in black and white. So much goes into writing, and so much can be misunderstood as to the writer's actual intent and meaning of their words. If for instance, if I say I am a Baptist, what comes to your mind? There are more than 60 different kinds of Baptist. So which flavor am I? When I narrow it down and say I am an evangelical conservative Baptist you have in your mind something more. Now if I say I have pastored a Southern Baptist Church, a Conservative Baptist Church, and an American Baptist Church has that got your opinion off track? Well I hope it says I take serious when the Bible says "whosoever will may come". I am dogmatic that it is not for me to judge who is saved and who is not, I share Christ under the power of the Holy Spirit, and the rest is between the person and the Holy Spirit plea with that person. Sometimes I plow ground, sometimes I spread seeds, sometimes I water and other times I put sticks in the ground to hold up a new plant, once and a while I am able to harvest someone else's work.

Romans 9 brings challenges to my heart and my Theology. This Scripture makes it clear God calls some to be saved, and He shows Mercy and compassion to some, but not all. In fact God hardens the hearts of some, verse 18. But in John 3:16 it says everyone who believes in Him will not perish. So those who are the "everyone" must also be the "called" ones. Likewise in John 10;27-30 Those who are held eternally secure in the Fathers hand are also those who are shown mercy, compassion, and "called" thus are those one's "saved".

Romans 1:19,29 say He has made His attributes has been shown to all of us, we are without excuse for not knowing who God is. John 1:9 says the true Light has been given to everyone. Even people who have never heard of Jesus Christ have had some "light" that they are accountable for. Only God is able to judge who is secure in His hands, this includes those who are unable due to circumstances of age or ability.

Scripture is clear there is no second chance to change a persons mind after death Hebrews 9:27 informs us that after death comes the judgment. There is a place for those who were genuine followers of Jesus Christ, to be in the midst of The Father and Son. So there is a place for those who rejects Jesus as being the One and Only Son Of God. The place especially for those who have rejected Jesus Christ is eternal torment, punishment.

As to if it is possible for someone to think they are a follower of Jesus Christ and in fact they are not, yes it does happen more than we think possible. There are false preachers and teachers leading many astray. Jesus said there is no way to the Father but by Him. Any religion that teaches there is a way to heaven other than by Jesus Christ it a lie.

This is what I have trusted my life with, and my life after my death.