Once Saved Always Saved - Why is it so hard?

[ToBeLoved]

wow... uh wow well
We still do all the things that we do

My question: So salvation doesn't work?

We of course have faith in God, the indwelling Holy Spirit to pray for us, to convict us of sin, to show us all truth. We have the mind of Christ, God's Word written on our hearts and of course our faith. I mean, I thought that you knew that I was saying we would be growing and maturing in Christ already.

My point was more to explain in this instance/response justification.

Salvation of course works, but when we are saved, God's begins to prepare us to become like His Son and future inhabitants of heaven, not to live successfully on this earth. God wants us to learn to love. Not ourselves and our desires, but others and God.

John 18:33-36
When Jesus was standing in front of Pontius Pilate this was there conversation:
33 Therefore Pilate entered again into the Praetorium, and summoned Jesus and said to Him, “Are You the King of the Jews?” 34 Jesus answered, “Are you saying this on your own initiative, or did others tell you about Me?” 35 Pilate answered, “I am not a Jew, am I? Your own nation and the chief priests delivered You to me; what have You done?” 36 Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would be fighting so that I would not be handed over to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not of this realm.”

Hebrews 13:14
14 For this world is not our permanent home; we are looking forward to a home yet to come.

God is preparing us for His Kingdom in heaven. This world is not spiritual, but of the flesh. Our home is spiritual with Christ in heaven. That is why Christ left us with the Holy Spirit and right before He died said that He is going to prepare a place for us, so where He is, we may be there also.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Ok. Then what work is it that we perform that is joined to the faith we have in Jesus Christ that would bring life to that faith? Wouldn't that be that we ask him for His forgiveness for our sin, and rely on Him for our continued salvation? I know that's only one work, but so are the examples that you mentioned.

16 "And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,

19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself."
(Matthew 19:16-19).

Whoa, Is this works salvation?

Well, this would not be man directed works salvation but it would be God directed works salvation (See John 15:5)(Philippians 2:13).


...

 

[ToBeLoved]

but when God looks at our sin record

My Response: the bible says blessed is a man whose iniquities are forgiven and who's sins are covered though. Shouldn't be a sin record if salvation works (I believe it does). Now if we decide to turn away or backslide that's differnet. IF we choose to turn back on salvation then yeah sure. I believe once we are adopted by christ and we walk in this newness we are able to change. I believe if any man be in christ he is a new creature, and old things pass away and all things become new.

Ok, so who is covering your iniquities? Is it not Christ and His righteousness?

So you do not believe that each of us has some kind of sin in our history of being God's Child? That's interesting, but sorry, I hardly believe it. We all try very, very hard, but even a thought of inappropriate activity can be adultery, so I'm not sure that anyone but Christ has a clean slate. Some say they do but I think they kind of fool themselves into thinking they are that good.

The point is not that we should rest on what we have, grace and the forgiveness of sin, but that we should love God all the more for giving us all that He has given us. Just because God gives us alot doesn't mean we should abuse it.

 

[JESUS=G.O.A.T]

We of course have faith in God, the indwelling Holy Spirit to pray for us, to convict us of sin, to show us all truth. We have the mind of Christ, God's Word written on our hearts and of course our faith. I mean, I thought that you knew that I was saying we would be growing and maturing in Christ already.

My point was more to explain in this instance/response justification.

Salvation of course works, but when we are saved, God's begins to prepare us to become like His Son and future inhabitants of heaven, not to live successfully on this earth. God wants us to learn to love. Not ourselves and our desires, but others and God.

John 18:33-36
When Jesus was standing in front of Pontius Pilate this was there conversation:
33 Therefore Pilate entered again into the Praetorium, and summoned Jesus and said to Him, “Are You the King of the Jews?” 34 Jesus answered, “Are you saying this on your own initiative, or did others tell you about Me?” 35 Pilate answered, “I am not a Jew, am I? Your own nation and the chief priests delivered You to me; what have You done?” 36 Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would be fighting so that I would not be handed over to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not of this realm.”

Hebrews 13:14
14 For this world is not our permanent home; we are looking forward to a home yet to come.

God is preparing us for His Kingdom in heaven. This world is not spiritual, but of the flesh. Our home is spiritual with Christ in heaven. That is why Christ left us with the Holy Spirit and right before He died said that He is going to prepare a place for us, so where He is, we may be there also.

We of course have faith in God, the indwelling Holy Spirit to pray for us, to convict us of sin, to show us all truth. We have the mind of Christ, God's Word written on our hearts and of course our faith. I mean, I thought that you knew that I was saying we would be growing and maturing in Christ already.

My Response: I knew what you were saying but it just doesn't click. And I believe now I know the question I was supposed to ask

Question: So how do you believe salvation is received? Based off your question it seems as if you believe we are kind of born into it but I could be wrong.



Salvation of course works, but when we are saved, God's begins to prepare us to become like His Son and future inhabitants of heaven, not to live successfully on this earth. God wants us to learn to love. Not ourselves and our desires, but others and God.


My Response: I agree God prepares us for a higher place after salvation but I am trying to see how all of this ties into OSAS. Don't we have to make the choice to go to church/read the bible/seek God? What if someone doesn't make that choice? Isn't free will to an extent a thing?




God is preparing us for His Kingdom in heaven. This world is not spiritual, but of the flesh. Our home is spiritual with Christ in heaven. That is why Christ left us with the Holy Spirit and right before He died said that He is going to prepare a place for us, so where He is, we may be there also.[/QUOTE]


My Response: I guess what i am saying is I believe everything you have stated... and now i realize I misunderstood some of the stuff on your earlier reply. But I have a hard time seeing how this is limited to OSAS. I believe this not believing in OSAS. I believe the holy ghost is a gift for people to receive if they choose so, I believe life here doesn't' matter I believe all that as well.

That was my initial focus question I guess, how are these beliefs mutual exclusive to OSAS? Or how do they along with the justification you presented earlier even prove it?

 

[ToBeLoved]

it is His Son's righteousness and perfection that He see's, not us. Because Christ gives us, through justification, His righteousness.

My Question: I guess my question then is are you suggesting there isn't such thing as a sinner and christian? YOu believe he sees sinners as christians? what?

Christ tells us that He justifies us, gives us His righteousness.

I really think you are going off into another direction rather than just seeing it as a fact. Read what the Bible has to say about justification and go back to the post where I posted the background on what justification is. Maybe you will understand it better if you read it again.

There is a great site called GotQuestions.org and they have all this information too.

 

[Neogaia777]

16 "And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,

19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself."
(Matthew 19:16-19).

Whoa, Is this works salvation?

Not man directed works salvation but God directed works salvation.

Jesus said that to that man, because that's what he believed, not to point out that works salvation was the way, but, that it wasn't... But, the man said he had kept all those, instead of acknowledging the truth that he hadn't and couldn't, which was what Jesus was "fishing" for...

Jesus cut to the chase and He finally told the man, that man in particular, what had a hold on his heart, that particular man's real source, of trust, reliance, faith, and belief, cause it was not God, when He told him to sell all that he owned, give the proceeds to the poor, and follow him... Jesus already knew the man would not be able to do that as well, but the man went away from Jesus in tears...

If the man, would have told and spoke with Jesus about the fact that he couldn't do it, Jesus might have been able to do more with him, if he would have admitted the truth that he could not achieve perfection on his own, or in his own self effort, and asked Jesus, something to the effect "I can't do it Lord... What do I do about that Lord?" And Jesus might have been able to do more with the man, but we all must first admit this fact before he can, or perhaps, even will, and go to him about it...

God Bless!

 

[JESUS=G.O.A.T]

Ok, so who is covering your iniquities? Is it not Christ and His righteousness?

So you do not believe that each of us has some kind of sin in our history of being God's Child? That's interesting, but sorry, I hardly believe it. We all try very, very hard, but even a thought of inappropriate activity can be adultery, so I'm not sure that anyone but Christ has a clean slate. Some say they do but I think they kind of fool themselves into thinking they are that good.

The point is not that we should rest on what we have, grace and the forgiveness of sin, but that we should love God all the more for giving us all that He has given us. Just because God gives us alot doesn't mean we should abuse it.

So you do not believe that each of us has some kind of sin in our history of being God's Child? That's interesting, but sorry, I hardly believe it.

Clarification: No that's wrong I don't believe that. The bible says straight up all have sinned and come short before the glory of God.

But rather I believe that we can be born again by water and spirit as JEsus says in john and I believe that once you are a new creature in christ jesus the old stuff passes away. YOu still sinned but it isn't considered anymore as long as you are saved.



We all try very, very hard, but even a thought of inappropriate activity can be adultery, so I'm not sure that anyone but Christ has a clean slate.

Clarification: again i'm not saying that no one has sinned.... but what i'm saying is after the infilling of the holy ghost an individual has the ability to not just "do the things we do". There is a difference between a sinner and a CHristian is what i'm trying to say.





The point is not that we should rest on what we have, grace and the forgiveness of sin, but that we should love God all the more for giving us all that He has given us.


My Response: but people decide to abuse this... so are they still considered under this belief to be saved would be the question. If they choose to abuse this "insurance policy".

 

[ToBeLoved]

Question: So how do you believe salvation is received? Based off your question it seems as if you believe we are kind of born into it but I could be wrong.

There are almost 50 verses in the New Testament that tell us salvation is by faith, through faith or in faith in Christ.

So that is where you want to begin to figure out salvation is by looking at what God expects a person to have through faith in Him.

To find out what overall occurs that makes us saved, look at Romans 5 and Romans 6 initially and then start looking and doing Bible studies about key concepts, like justification, sanctification, ect. Then it comes together with knowledge into a more cohesive picture.

 

[ToBeLoved]

So you do not believe that each of us has some kind of sin in our history of being God's Child? That's interesting, but sorry, I hardly believe it.

Clarification: No that's wrong I don't believe that. The bible says straight up all have sinned and come short before the glory of God.

But rather I believe that we can be born again by water and spirit as JEsus says in john and I believe that once you are a new creature in christ jesus the old stuff passes away. YOu still sinned but it isn't considered anymore as long as you are saved.

But you are ok not knowing why God says that your sin isn't considered against you anymore?

I think it is very important to know why and how God saves us and why if sin is not considered, why is that so.

We should all seek the answers to the questions that we ourselves should know and if others ask us why and what we believe, we should know so we can tell others. But for many years we are learning, so just keep learning and asking questions.

 

[JESUS=G.O.A.T]

Christ tells us that He justifies us, gives us His righteousness.

I really think you are going off into another direction rather than just seeing it as a fact. Read what the Bible has to say about justification and go back to the post where I posted the background on what justification is. Maybe you will understand it better if you read it again.

NO the problem here is you're overrating/overextending justification. I have yet to hear what you believe comes after that.



There are almost 50 verses in the New Testament that tell us salvation is by faith, through faith or in faith in Christ.

Response: well by faith we have access to his grace. The bible says the fear of the lord is the beginning of wisdom.

Believing is the start i'm not disputing that.


So that is where you want to begin to figure out salvation is by looking at what God expects a person to have through faith in Him.

My Response: I know what I believe salvation is based off my study of scripture. I'm just trying to figure out what OSAS sees it as.


To find out what overall occurs that makes us saved, look at Romans 5 and Romans 6 initially and then start looking and doing Bible studies about key concepts, like justification, sanctification, ect. Then it comes together with knowledge into a more cohesive picture.

My Response: I actually studied acts first when i began my walk specifically acts 2. Then I went into romans and JOhn. again i'm not trying to figure out salvation for myself. BUt what you believe it is to understand how OSAS can even function as an stable ideoligy really.




But you are ok not knowing why God says that your sin isn't considered against you anymore?

I think it is very important to know why and how God saves us and why if sin is not considered, why is that so.


My Response: the reason why is because when you get saved you're not the same person as before. YOu stop sinning all the time, you serve God, you change. Born again literally means like .... born again. You're a babe in christ now. We are born in sin and shapeth in inequity, when you get saved you're free as long as you stay with it.

The apostles changed after they got the holy ghost, they were called christians after that at the city of antioch or whatever. I mean Peter became bold for christ, he wasn't the same individual we knew that denied christ 3 times.


BEing then made free from sin ye became the servants of righteousness

 

[ToBeLoved]

My Response: I agree God prepares us for a higher place after salvation but I am trying to see how all of this ties into OSAS. Don't we have to make the choice to go to church/read the bible/seek God? What if someone doesn't make that choice? Isn't free will to an extent a thing?

Each of us can only make decisions for ourselves. We have the Holy Spirit and all the other things Jesus gave us. And each of us is called by God according to His will, so I don't know what God's will is for everyone else or what conviction the Holy Spirit lays on their hearts because God works with each of us individually. What I can say is that i believe that the Holy Spirit teaches most through the Bible and that going to church is important to be around other Christians, that is what the apostles did. And I wouldn't use the term "seek God" i would think of it more as walking together with God each day like He is an important part of your life and you seek His wisdom and help.

We try to support others in Christ, but we cannot make decsions for anyone but ourselves.

 

[ToBeLoved]

NO the problem here is you're overrating/overextending justification. I have yet to hear what you believe comes after that.

Well actually I probably would have been writing more of what I want to write if I wasn't answering your questions. I don't need to prove my faith or beliefs to you or anyone.

I said "THIS IS WHY I believe OSAS".

So maybe I'll just get back to my testimony and let you talk with someone else because you are being rude.

And let me add, I still think after me writing all that on justification, you still have little idea of what it is. I listed at least 20 verses and the justification definition listed another 25 verses, maybe you are not reading the scripture along with what I am writing. It's not like I haven't included any scriptural support.

See, people are generous when they answer questions, but they do not have to. So maybe try to find out the answers yourself first and then if you still don't understand ask someone. Too many people do not want to do the work or read the scripture, yet want someone else to do all the work finding answers. That's not cool.

 

[JESUS=G.O.A.T]

Each of us can only make decisions for ourselves. We have the Holy Spirit and all the other things Jesus gave us. And each of us is called by God according to His will, so I don't know what God's will is for everyone else or what conviction the Holy Spirit lays on their hearts because God works with each of us individually. What I can say is that i believe that the Holy Spirit teaches most through the Bible and that going to church is important to be around other Christians, that is what the apostles did. And I wouldn't use the term "seek God" i would think of it more as walking together with God each day like He is an important part of your life and you seek His wisdom and help.

We try to support others in Christ, but we cannot make decisions for anyone but ourselves.

The bible uses the term seek God though. You will seek me and find me if you search for me with all your heart. The bible doesn't say all are called though, it says many are called and few are chosen. Not everyone is called, those who are called though have the pleasure of making it for sure. Moses is an example of this he put off his calling for 40 years but he still fulfilled it becuase God had plans for him. But some like Judas aren't one of those that God.


I agree with most of this though and I agree with we must save ourselves. The bible even says save yourself. IT's good to encourage and worry about others but in the end we have to work out our own salvation.

 

[JESUS=G.O.A.T]

The bible uses the term seek God though. You will seek me and find me if you search for me with all your heart. The bible doesn't say all are called though, it says many are called and few are chosen. Not everyone is called, those who are called though have the pleasure of making it for sure. Moses is an example of this he put off his calling for 40 years but he still fulfilled it becuase God had plans for him. But some like Judas aren't one of those that God.


I agree with most of this though and I agree with we must save ourselves. The bible even says save yourself. IT's good to encourage and worry about others but in the end we have to work out our own salvation.

Well actually I probably would have been writing more of what I want to write if I wasn't answering your questions. I don't need to prove my faith or beliefs to you or anyone.


My Response: I wouldn't have so much questions if there weren't so many holes in your ideoligy. IT doesn't help when your first explanation is confusing as heck... also.

Every question I have asked is a flaw I find with OSAS basically I wasn't expecting to find so many and I apologize for that. IF i knew better I wouldn't have asked the questions.



So maybe I'll just get back to my testimony and let you talk with someone else because you are being rude.

And let me add, I still think after me writing all that on justification, you still have little idea of what it is.


My Response: I'm not being rude tbh i'm sorry if I come off that way.

Justification= free from the sin we are born with, no longer bound. Finally acceptable for God to use. He had to justify us in order for him to have a justifiable reason in using us. HE is truth so he couldn't just violate his own law.

Adoption= God coming inside of us through the holy ghost by us choosing to be a child of God.

 

[ToBeLoved]

The point is not that we should rest on what we have, grace and the forgiveness of sin, but that we should love God all the more for giving us all that He has given us.

My Response: but people decide to abuse this... so are they still considered under this belief to be saved would be the question. If they choose to abuse this "insurance policy".

Why don't you look for the answer in the Bible and then come back and tell me what the answer is and give me the verses that you used to reach your conclusion?

 

[ToBeLoved]

Well actually I probably would have been writing more of what I want to write if I wasn't answering your questions. I don't need to prove my faith or beliefs to you or anyone.


My Response: I wouldn't have so much questions if there weren't so many holes in your ideoligy. IT doesn't help when your first explanation is confusing as heck... also.

Well was the OP as confusing? Because most of my beliefs are very close to hers. So then you are confused by both our beliefs?

Whose beliefs on this thread do you actually understand? A thread builds upon itself as new people add things, however there are only two positions here (even though you are jumping all over the place with your questions), so I"m not getting why you are criticizing me and not writing out what you believe and why.

I think the most confusing thing I did was put in that whole dictionary entry, I think I'll remove most of it and move on.

 

[JESUS=G.O.A.T]

Why don't you look for the answer in the Bible and then come back and tell me what the answer is and give me the verses that you used to reach your conclusion?

Why don't you look for the answer in the Bible and then come back and tell me what the answer is and give me the verses that you used to reach your conclusion?

My Response: You still haven't done that with OSAS though lol.

 

[JESUS=G.O.A.T]

Why don't you look for the answer in the Bible and then come back and tell me what the answer is and give me the verses that you used to reach your conclusion?

My Response: You still haven't done that with OSAS though lol. After you do that then i'll show you what the holy ghost is.

Why don't you look for the answer in the Bible and then come back and tell me what the answer is and give me the verses that you used to reach your conclusion?

My Response: You still haven't done that with OSAS though . After you do that then i'll show you what the holy ghost is.

Well was the OP as confusing? Because most of my beliefs are very close to hers. So then you are confused by both our beliefs?


My Response: I understood her reasoning, it was organized and made sense. Also had lots of scripture. IT had problems though which I believe I questioned earlier she just didn't respond. You provided a good response on Justification.... but it didn't defend or talk about OSAS.

 

[JESUS=G.O.A.T]

Well was the OP as confusing? Because most of my beliefs are very close to hers. So then you are confused by both our beliefs?


My Response: I understood her reasoning, it was organized and made sense. Also had lots of scripture. IT had problems though which I believe I questioned earlier she just didn't respond.

there are only two positions here (even though you are jumping all over the place with your questions),

Well every answer you provide simply raises more questions is the problem.... Just summarize OSAS.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Why don't you look for the answer in the Bible and then come back and tell me what the answer is and give me the verses that you used to reach your conclusion?

My Response: You still haven't done that with OSAS though lol. After you do that then i'll show you what the holy ghost is.

But I know at least what I will be writing, do you? It seems so easy to write until you do it and put supporting scripture in there. So, I'll gladly read what you are going to write.