Once Saved Always Saved - Why is it so hard?

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Why does the 'you can loose your salvation crowd always grab out the most extreme example that would not be 1/5000 th of the population and then stake their cause on that. As if God is making His covenant with us looking at the 1 in 5000 th person who would have some deep, deep seeded issues if not gross mental illness.

In doing this IMHO, they show that they do not know the Bible in that they do not know the nature of God much at all, because God is indwelling each individual believer and God knows EVERYTHING that will ever happen and our motivations for EVERYTHING we have ever done. Knowing how much God knows, let's us know that no one is pulling the wool over God's eyes and He can ONLY be perfect, righteous and just.

But the naysayer's grab the most ridiculous examples making God out to be a fool in the process when God can only be what God is. And a fool is not something He can be.

This is why I have trouble holding a conversation with people who do this. They never start a "valid" conversation to begin with, they started an "extreme" example that they want us to defend our position over.

Then if they feel they are loosing, comes "extreme" example number #2 and so on ...........

When you talk about morality, extreme examples is a good way to show somebody right from wrong.

However, all examples I have used are real world examples. This is something OSAS cannot do. Yet, Jesus illustrated spiritual truth by real world examples. They were called "parables." Even the Canaanite woman expounded upon one of Jesus's parables with a parable of her own. So yes. We can make parables, too.


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I will say one part of what I said on the ;ast thread on OSAS I commented on.

We should live our lives as if we can lose our salvation.

In our own lives we should be living the best life we can and if we live it as if we can lose our salvation it will/may lead to us leading a better life and doing more for the Lord. The issue imo is when people fall away. My personal belief is it has to be a concious decision in your right mind to tell God to get out of your life to lose salvation and I have known people who have done that. So I dont believe OSAS but I do believe it s hard to lose salvation and has to be a deliberate choice.

If we do not forgive we will not be forgiven by the Father
(Matthew 6:15).

If we look upon a woman in lust, we can be cast bodily into hell fire
(Matthew 5:28-30).

We can be condemned by our words
(Matthew 12:36-37).

If we hate we are like a murderer, and no murderer has eternal life in them
(1 John 3:15).

If we lie and do not repent of such a sin, things will not go well for us, for all liars will have their part in the lake of fire
(Revelation 21:8).

Ananais and Sapphira were instantly killed for lying to the Holy Ghost. A great fear fell upon the church when they heard about it. The church did not experience a comfort or joy that they were saved. They experienced "fear." If I was a detective (who was objective), I would have to come to the conclusion that things did not go well for them.

In fact, why are we to work out our salvation with fear and trembling if there is no fear? Does not trembling imply the emotion of .... "fear"?


...
 
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ToBeLoved

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I will say one part of what I said on the ;ast thread on OSAS I commented on.

We should live our lives as if we can lose our salvation.

In our own lives we should be living the best life we can and if we live it as if we can lose our salvation it will/may lead to us leading a better life and doing more for the Lord. The issue imo is when people fall away. My personal belief is it has to be a concious decision in your right mind to tell God to get out of your life to lose salvation and I have known people who have done that. So I dont believe OSAS but I do believe it s hard to lose salvation and has to be a deliberate choice.
What I see in the 'loose your salvation' crowd is a great, great tendency towards self. Every moment they live they focus on themselves and if they die in the next second, they are on their way to hell. If they suddenly loose their mind and start thinking about something other than their sinning and going to hell, it's only momentarily.

So their relationship with God and what they are able to do for God is (to use a football term) defense. Everything they've done the moment before they are CYA in the next moment. So God is not getting much work done through them because they are focused, very focused, on their sin and what they think others sin are.

The other person who has eternal security knows that God has given them the wonderful gift of letting them not worry about self every moment or sin, so that person, knowing God has their back is not shrinking in the corner worrying about hell and their previous sin, but out and about doing God's work, because God has given them the freedom to turn their attention away from self. This allows us, to do the two commands Jesus left us with which is to love God and love others.

And each person inside their sin that see's the eternal security person not worrying every second wants to share that there is no eternal security to remove that person's joy in Christ and make them just like the 'loose your salvation crowd'.
 
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ToBeLoved

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All examples I have used are real world examples. This is something OSAS cannot do. Yet, Jesus illustrated spiritual truth by real world examples. They were called "parables." Even the Canaanite woman expounded upon one of Jesus's parables with a parable of her own. So yes. We can make parables, too.


...
I haven't even gotten far enough to have read your posts, so no this is not about you.
 
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tienkhoanguyen

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Let me begin by saying I do not want to prove any point of view. When I want to know the true interpretation of a controversial theology, I read both sides. It upsets me when one side is clearly argumentative and trying to prove that they're right instead of considering both sides of the argument.

So I have read both sides thoroughly, and the problem is this: the side that believes "once saved always saved", I think, has the superior holistic view of all Scripture. The problem is that there are so many people convinced that believing in OSAS will result in many people going to hell, so the risk of believing OSAS is the greatest so you'd better be right. The other problem is that no matter how you feel about what God should do - it's irrelevant - whether you think something is right or not doesn't make it true. If you are confronted by God and God tells you you're wrong, you do not have the luxury of arguing with Him. Too many people believe in an interpretation based on what they feel is right.

Lastly: people need to realize that whatever you believe is just an interpretation of the Word - it doesn't mean it IS the Word, even though you quote the Bible. Both sides of the debate quote the SAME VERSES, but have different interpretations. It disappoints me when I read a website quoting all these verses as if their interpretation is correct without bothering to address the other side's interpretation of those same verses (and acting as if the other side has never seen those verses before).

I believe this is a difficult subject and therefore we must carefully and prayerfully ask God to give us the complete understanding of salvation.

So what do I want? I want a careful discussion of the controversial verses of salvation and whether you can lose it. And by careful I mean - let's not approach this with a presupposition and refuse to budge from it. Let's approach it from an attitude of seeking the truth realizing that we may be on the wrong side of it.

I think this is the most important subject in this entire site. There's no point in debating theology if we're not truly saved, therefore we should really really get this theology right.

I will begin stating my opinions in the next post. Thanks.
Don't try it... it's going to hurt you bad!!!!!!!!!!!! I have been warned all through my years growing up not to try out bad things. And my parents have been more than generous until I started to feel like I wanted to lash out at them. Then they kicked me out into the real world. I'm sorry I had to doubt my parents. I love them today 20 years after I fell from grace. Thank you mom and dad; I was an [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] and I don't deserve you taking me back.
 
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tienkhoanguyen

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Let me begin by saying I do not want to prove any point of view. When I want to know the true interpretation of a controversial theology, I read both sides. It upsets me when one side is clearly argumentative and trying to prove that they're right instead of considering both sides of the argument.

So I have read both sides thoroughly, and the problem is this: the side that believes "once saved always saved", I think, has the superior holistic view of all Scripture. The problem is that there are so many people convinced that believing in OSAS will result in many people going to hell, so the risk of believing OSAS is the greatest so you'd better be right. The other problem is that no matter how you feel about what God should do - it's irrelevant - whether you think something is right or not doesn't make it true. If you are confronted by God and God tells you you're wrong, you do not have the luxury of arguing with Him. Too many people believe in an interpretation based on what they feel is right.

Lastly: people need to realize that whatever you believe is just an interpretation of the Word - it doesn't mean it IS the Word, even though you quote the Bible. Both sides of the debate quote the SAME VERSES, but have different interpretations. It disappoints me when I read a website quoting all these verses as if their interpretation is correct without bothering to address the other side's interpretation of those same verses (and acting as if the other side has never seen those verses before).

I believe this is a difficult subject and therefore we must carefully and prayerfully ask God to give us the complete understanding of salvation.

So what do I want? I want a careful discussion of the controversial verses of salvation and whether you can lose it. And by careful I mean - let's not approach this with a presupposition and refuse to budge from it. Let's approach it from an attitude of seeking the truth realizing that we may be on the wrong side of it.

I think this is the most important subject in this entire site. There's no point in debating theology if we're not truly saved, therefore we should really really get this theology right.

I will begin stating my opinions in the next post. Thanks.
Don't try it... it's going to hurt you bad!!!!!!!!!!!! I have been warned all through my years growing up not to try out bad things. And my parents have been more than generous until I started to feel like I wanted to lash out at them. Then they kicked me out into the real world. I'm sorry I had to doubt my parents. I love them today 20 years after I fell from grace. Thank you mom and dad; I was an ******* and I don't deserve you taking me back.
 
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ToBeLoved

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When you talk about morality, extreme examples is a good way to show somebody right from wrong.

However, all examples I have used are real world examples. This is something OSAS cannot do. Yet, Jesus illustrated spiritual truth by real world examples. They were called "parables." Even the Canaanite woman expounded upon one of Jesus's parables with a parable of her own. So yes. We can make parables, too.


...
I see, your excuse for using the 1/10000 rule.

Also, don't forget I know your theology well and very few people have Jesus' intelligence to make a good parable. You should stick with 'real' people and 'real' situations, but maybe you can't prove your point without extremes. That could very well be true. Because you cannot keep it to theology, but have to interject abstract, non existent, extreme examples to even stay in a theological conversation and that is too bad.
 
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The other thing that I think is a huge divide is that people do not understand the different covenants and their timelines. If someone jumps from New Covenant (grace) back to the Old Covenant (law) than back, then forth, then back it throws everything out of whack.

It's important to know which Books of the Bible fall under which covenant and which situations occurred under which covenant. Then one can really see the difference in the two covenants and how God deals with humans under each covenant. And then I think Hebrews is awesome for explaining some of the Old Covenant things and how they were before and what they are now.

For example, someone pulls a passage from Romans and mixes it with Leviticus probably not going to be a lot of cohesion there.

There is nothing wrong with quoting from the OT. Jesus did so many times.
But yes. I agree in part with you. Most people are confused about the differences in God's Covenants. The first covenant was for Israel and it is not for the church. So those commands do not apply to believers today. But the New Testament (or New Covenant) is filled with all kind of Commands (Including, thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not steal, and thou shalt not commit adultery, etc.). Breaking God's Commands is still considered sin (1 John 3:4); And sin still leads to death (i.e. the second death or the Lake of Fire) (See Revelation 21:8, Galatians 5:19-21). In fact, even believing in Jesus is a Commandment (1 John 3:23). So if you propose you are not under any law, whatsoever, then you must also believe you are not under the Command that says we are to believe on Jesus in regards to our salvation. Well, that is if you believe you are truly not under any Law (that is). So we have to conclude that we are under the Commands in the New Testament (with many of them having dire consequences for our soul if we were to disobey and not repent them).


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I see, your excuse for using the 1/10000 rule.

Also, don't forget I know your theology well and very few people have Jesus' intelligence to make a good parable. You should stick with 'real' people and 'real' situations, but maybe you can't prove your point without extremes. That could very well be true. Because you cannot keep it to theology, but have to interject abstract, non existent, extreme examples to even stay in a theological conversation and that is too bad.

I do not think you truly know what I believe on the topic of Soteriology.
Do you think I am saved by Man Directed Works?

Anyways, you are not putting forth any real world examples to prove your case for OSAS. But don't worry. Many have tried and failed. So I am not expecting you to do so successfully.

As for the real world examples I use: Well, I have made similar kinds of parables or real world examples that Jesus and the Canaanite woman have used. So please do not try to say that I have not done so (When I already have). It will only hurt your position.


...
 
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ToBeLoved

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There is nothing wrong with quoting from the OT. Jesus did so many times.
But yes. I agree in part with you. Most people are confused about the differences in God's Covenants. The first covenant was for Israel and it is not for the church. So those commands are do not apply to believers today. But the New Testament (or New Covenant) is filled with all kind of Commands (Including, thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not steal, and thou shalt not commit commit adultery, etc.). Breaking God's Commands is still considered sin (1 John 3:4); And sin still leads to death (i.e. the second death or the Lake of Fire) (See Revelation 21:8, Galatians 5:19-21). In fact, even believing in Jesus is a Commandment (1 John 3:23). So if you propose you are not under any law, whatsoever, then you must also believe you are not under the Command that says we are to believe on Jesus in regards to our salvation. Well, that is if you believe you are truly not under any Law (that is). So we have to conclude that we are under the Commands in the New Testament (with many of them have dire consequences for our soul if we were to disobey them and not repent).


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Now this is the other thing that they ALWAYS do. The minute anyone says they are not under the law, they are trying to say they are not under any commands of Jesus at all and want to live in crazy, complete sin and don't love God but are taking the shortcut to heaven.

I said nothing about sin, except I think people that cannot distinguish between the things that happen under the Old Covenant and the things under the New Covenant get confused.

How rude it is when I answer a question and then someone else comes along and questions if I am free from every command in the Bible. That is the craziest thing ever, but it is done over, and over, and over and over by the same people who use EXTREMES constantly to make their point.

If I say as a New Covenant believer and a gentile I am not, nor was I EVER under the Law. Then you get what you see in the above response.

E X T R E M E S that show they have no scriptural basis nor anything we said in our words to indicate we think this way, but we are persecuted by them so they can hold a theological conversation by putting us on the defensive.

:scratch: :swoon:

Drama, Drama, Drama.

Let's talk theology.
 
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ToBeLoved

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I do not think you truly know what I believe on the topic of Soteriology.
Do you think I am saved by Man Directed Works?

Anyways, you are not putting forth any real world examples to prove your case for OSAS. But don't worry. Many have tried and failed. So I am not expecting you to do so successfully.

As for the real world examples I use: Well, I have made similar kinds of parables or real world examples that Jesus and the Canaanite woman have used. So please do not try to say that I have not done so (When I already have). It will only hurt your position.


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You change the subject too many times for us to have a long conversation. I'll let someone else have the pleasure of your company in this thread and you can take them dancing on the carosaul to no where.

I know what you are all about already and been on your merry-go-round a double-talk and extremes. I'll pass, but you have fun.
 
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Now this is the other thing that they ALWAYS do. The minute anyone says they are not under the law, they are trying to say they are not under any commands of Jesus at all and want to live in crazy, complete sin and don't love God but are taking the shortcut to heaven.

I said nothing about sin, except I think people that cannot distinguish between the things that happen under the Old Covenant and the things under the New Covenant get confused.

How rude it is when I answer a question and then someone else comes along and questions if I am free from every command in the Bible. That is the craziest thing ever, but it is done over, and over, and over and over by the same people who use EXTREMES constantly to make their point.

If I say as a New Covenant believer and a gentile I am not, nor was I EVER under the Law. Then you get what you see in the above response.

E X T R E M E S that show they have no scriptural basis nor anything we said in our words to indicate we think this way, but we are persecuted by them so they can hold a theological conversation by putting us on the defensive.

:scratch: :swoon:

Drama, Drama, Drama.

Let's talk theology.

Okay, so what laws or commands in the New Testament do you think you are under? If a believer decided to break these commands a few years later down the road and did not repent of such sins, would they be saved?


...
 
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You change the subject too many times for us to have a long conversation. I'll let someone else have the pleasure of your company in this thread and you can take them dancing on the carosaul to no where.

When I reply to you: I am only replying to what things you have written.
If you do not want to reply anymore, that is okay. But I will reply to your posts none the less (even if you do not read mine).

For the truth shall not be hidden.


...
 
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RC1970

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Let me begin by saying I do not want to prove any point of view. When I want to know the true interpretation of a controversial theology, I read both sides. It upsets me when one side is clearly argumentative and trying to prove that they're right instead of considering both sides of the argument.

So I have read both sides thoroughly, and the problem is this: the side that believes "once saved always saved", I think, has the superior holistic view of all Scripture. The problem is that there are so many people convinced that believing in OSAS will result in many people going to hell, so the risk of believing OSAS is the greatest so you'd better be right. The other problem is that no matter how you feel about what God should do - it's irrelevant - whether you think something is right or not doesn't make it true. If you are confronted by God and God tells you you're wrong, you do not have the luxury of arguing with Him. Too many people believe in an interpretation based on what they feel is right.

Lastly: people need to realize that whatever you believe is just an interpretation of the Word - it doesn't mean it IS the Word, even though you quote the Bible. Both sides of the debate quote the SAME VERSES, but have different interpretations. It disappoints me when I read a website quoting all these verses as if their interpretation is correct without bothering to address the other side's interpretation of those same verses (and acting as if the other side has never seen those verses before).

I believe this is a difficult subject and therefore we must carefully and prayerfully ask God to give us the complete understanding of salvation.

So what do I want? I want a careful discussion of the controversial verses of salvation and whether you can lose it. And by careful I mean - let's not approach this with a presupposition and refuse to budge from it. Let's approach it from an attitude of seeking the truth realizing that we may be on the wrong side of it.

I think this is the most important subject in this entire site. There's no point in debating theology if we're not truly saved, therefore we should really really get this theology right.

I will begin stating my opinions in the next post. Thanks.
The reason people don't grasp OSAS is because they don't believe that salvation is God's monergistic work.

If the one working is God and God can not fail, then QED, your salvation is certain.

However, if your salvation is up to you, then it could fail. Or, I should say, it will most certainly fail.

So, it all comes down to your view of WHO is doing the work.
 
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I will say one part of what I said on the ;ast thread on OSAS I commented on.

We should live our lives as if we can lose our salvation.

In our own lives we should be living the best life we can and if we live it as if we can lose our salvation it will/may lead to us leading a better life and doing more for the Lord. The issue imo is when people fall away. My personal belief is it has to be a concious decision in your right mind to tell God to get out of your life to lose salvation and I have known people who have done that. So I dont believe OSAS but I do believe it s hard to lose salvation and has to be a deliberate choice.
Amen even if let's say you were a once saved always saved believer it's best to strive to do good anyway. Allows us to get closer to god
The reason people don't grasp OSAS is because they don't believe that salvation is God's monergistic work.

If the one working is God and God can not fail, then QED, your salvation is certain.

However, if your salvation is up to you, then it could fail. Or, I should say, it will most certainly fail.

So, it all comes down to your view of WHO is doing the work.
I believe it's a mixture of both because god doesn't force us to stay with him, but if we choose to stay with him then we can remain saved. He says we must choose good or evil. You can be saved your whole life sure, but you you must be consistent in your walk for that to happen. The highway of upright departures from evil they that keepeth their way persevere their soul.
 
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ToBeLoved

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Okay, so what laws or commands in the New Testament do you think you are under? If a believer decided to break these commands a few years later down the road and did not repent of such sins, would they be saved?


...
If you had respect for the OP you would stay on topic of OSAS or against eternal salvation, but you will not because your off changing the subject to sin already, your most favorite subject.

I, because I respect the OP's right to have their own thread and to have people stay on topic, I will begin to make my case for OSAS.

Please direct your off-topic conversation to another or start your own thread with that as your topic.
 
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ToBeLoved

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The reason people don't grasp OSAS is because they don't believe that salvation is God's monergistic work.

If the one working is God and God can not fail, then QED, your salvation is certain.

However, if your salvation is up to you, then it could fail. Or, I should say, it will most certainly fail.

So, it all comes down to your view of WHO is doing the work.
:amen:
 
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If you had respect for the OP you would stay on topic of OSAS or against eternal salvation, but you will not because your off changing the subject to sin already, your most favorite subject.

I, because I respect the OP's right to have their own thread and to have people stay on topic, I will begin to make my case for OSAS.

Please direct your off-topic conversation to another or start your own thread with that as your topic.

It's not off topic to refute a teaching that is not biblical. For example: If somebody started a thread on why the Earth was flat, do you not have a right to tell them the truth with Scripture and by real world examples of how the Earth is actually round?


....
 
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I will begin my support of OSAS with Hebrews. This chapter compares the Aaronic and Levitical priesthoods of the Old Covenant with the Melchezedek priesthood of the New Covenant (ie. Christ)

Hebrews 7:11 - 28
A Superior Priesthood
11 Now if perfection could have been attained through the Levitical priesthood (upon which basis the people received the Law), why was there still a need for another priest to appear—one in the order of Melchizedek and not in the order of Aaron? 12 For when the priesthood is changed, the Law must be changed as well.

13 He of whom these things are said belonged to a different tribe, from which no one has ever served at the altar. 14For it is clear that our Lord descended from Judah, a tribe as to which Moses said nothing about priests.

15 And this point is even more clear if another priest like Melchizedek appears, 16 one who has become a priest not by a law of succession, but by the power of an indestructible life. 17 For it is testified:

“You are a priest forever

in the order of Melchizedek.”

18 So the former commandment is set aside because it was weak and useless 19 (for the Law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God.

20 And none of this happened without an oath. For others became priests without an oath, 21 but Jesus became a priest with an oath by the One who said to Him:

“The Lord has sworn and will not change His mind,

‘You are a priest forever.’”

22 Because of this oath, Jesus has become the guarantee of a better covenant.

23 Now there have been many other priests, since death prevented them from continuing in office. 24 But because Jesus lives forever, He has a permanent priesthood. 25 Therefore He is able to save completely those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to intercede for them.

26 Such a high priest truly befits us—One who is holy, innocent, undefiled, set apart from sinners, and exalted above the heavens. 27 Unlike the other high priests, He does not need to offer daily sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the sins of the people; He sacrificed for sin once for all when He offered up Himself. 28 For the Law appoints as high priests men who are weak; but the oath, which came after the Law, appointed the Son, who has been made perfect forever.


So we can see who and what we now have in Jesus Christ, our Savior as our High Priest and the guarantee'or of the New Covenant which is sealed in God Himself, the Holy Spirit.
Notice in verse 12 that the law must change as well. New High Priest, New Covenant, new seal, new law.

Now my second point is that we officially change ownership when we are saved in the New Covenant.

1 Corinthians 7:23

You were bought at a price; do not become slaves of men.

1 Peter 1:18

For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life you inherited from your forefathers,

Revelation 5:9

And they sang a new song: "Worthy are You to take the scroll and open its seals, because You were slain, and by Your blood You purchased for God those from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.

We have been purchased by Jesus for a price. And we have changed masters, from serving self/flesh to serving God. We have not been purchased with silver or gold, which can perish, but with the blood of God Himself who will never perish.

Matthew 6:24

24 No one can serve two masters: Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other.
 
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