On the way to another divorce statistic? Or is God really that great?

[DiscipleHeLovesToo]

if God can do whatever He wants, regardless of what He has said in the past, then He could stop all the suffering in the world and eliminate evil at any time - to believe that God can act outside His promises of faithfulness and fairness, is to attribute all evil to Him. there's a difference between ownership and dominion; all things are indeed God's, but He has given dominion (authority) over the earth to people in flesh bodies. He does whatever He pleases, but within the limits of His word - He does not change His word. it is confusion to believe that God can choose to supernaturally override a person's free will to save a marriage, but choose not to do so not to save the lost from hell.

Jer 18:5-8 KJV
(5) Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying,
(6) O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.
(7) At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it;
(8) If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.

This isn't God acting independently of man's choice in the earth, overriding man's authority; it is confirmation that man is in control in the earth.

God still has ultimate dominion over the earth, but has restricted His independent-of-man exercise of that dominion to the 'great day' of the 'end times', when there is no longer anyone on the earth yielded to Him - Psalms 47 does not indicate otherwise.

Joh 3:14-17 KJV
(14) And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
(17) For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Romans 9 18-21 has to be understood in light of John 3:14-17 - if 'whosoever' can choose life, then obviously God doesn't also acting independent of people's choice in having mercy and hardening people's hearts - Paul's words must be interpreted by the Lord's words.

Psa 115:1-18 KJV
(1) Not unto us, O LORD, not unto us, but unto thy name give glory, for thy mercy, and for thy truth's sake.
(2) Wherefore should the heathen say, Where is now their God?
(3) But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.
(4) Their idols are silver and gold, the work of men's hands.
(5) They have mouths, but they speak not: eyes have they, but they see not:
(6) They have ears, but they hear not: noses have they, but they smell not:
(7) They have hands, but they handle not: feet have they, but they walk not: neither speak they through their throat.
(8) They that make them are like unto them; so is every one that trusteth in them.
(9) O Israel, trust thou in the LORD: he is their help and their shield.
(10) O house of Aaron, trust in the LORD: he is their help and their shield.
(11) Ye that fear the LORD, trust in the LORD: he is their help and their shield.
(12) The LORD hath been mindful of us: he will bless us; he will bless the house of Israel; he will bless the house of Aaron.
(13) He will bless them that fear the LORD, both small and great.
(14) The LORD shall increase you more and more, you and your children.
(15) Ye are blessed of the LORD which made heaven and earth.
(16) The heaven, even the heavens, are the LORD'S: but the earth hath he given to the children of men.
(17) The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.
(18) But we will bless the LORD from this time forth and for evermore. Praise the LORD.

He has done whatever He pleased, but what He pleased was to give people the ability to choose whether to fear (reverence) Him or not, and He was pleased to give the earth to people in flesh bodies.

Mal 3:6 KJV
(6) For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

Deu 30:19-20 KJV
(19) I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore <you> choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
(20) That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.
text enclosed in "<>" added by me

Mat 13:57-58 KJV
(57) And they were offended in him. But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, save in his own country, and in his own house.
(58) And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief.

Heb 13:8 KJV
(8) Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

 

[aiki]

if God can do whatever He wants, regardless of what He has said in the past, then He could stop all the suffering in the world and eliminate evil at any time - to believe that God can act outside His promises of faithfulness and fairness, is to attribute all evil to Him.

Hmmm...I get what you're saying....I just don't recall anywhere in God's word a promise that He will act fairly. Instead, I see instances where God acts quite unilaterally among humans, choosing among nations and people as He likes. Take, for example, Abraham to whom God made the promise that he would be the father of a great nation. How is this apparent divine favoritism fair? Wouldn't fairness require that God not have any special people, that He treat all people the same? What do you do with someone like Samson who was gifted by God in a very singular way? Why did Samson get superhuman strength and not anyone else? How is that fair? What about Mary the mother of Christ, or Paul, or any of the disciples for that matter? What was fair about God choosing only them to play the important roles that they did?

I wonder too: Hasn't God stopped suffering and evil in this world at many and various times as it pleased Him to do so? I certainly see this in Scripture. And I have heard modern believers tell of instances where God both alleviated suffering and prevented evil in their lives. So, God does stop suffering and evil in this world, just not yet in a once-for-all event like the Second Coming and Final Judgment. He allows evil and suffering to proceed as it pleases Him to do so, to achieve ends often beyond our scope of understanding.

there's a difference between ownership and dominion; all things are indeed God's, but He has given dominion (authority) over the earth to people in flesh bodies.

Yeah, I get this but I just don't see what you're saying taught in Scripture. As I explained above, Scripture is full of instances where God acts in human affairs as it pleased Him to do so. And the verses I cited in my last post don't say that God stands merely as an owner of all, but also as an active agent in Creation, working in it in whatever way suits Him.

What do you do with these verses that indicates that Satan is in control of the world of men?

2 Corinthians 4:3-4
3 But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing,
4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.

This passage seems to be saying, in part, that every unsaved person labors under the blinding influence of the devil.

Ephesians 2:2-3
2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience,
3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

This passage seems to be indicating that all who have not been saved walk according to the "prince of the power of the air" who is the devil.

Ephesians 6:12
12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.

This verse seems to be telling us that behind and/or above the affairs of men stands the spiritual powers it describes.

2 Timothy 2:26
26 and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will.

This verse, too, seems to be implying that those who don't know God are "taken captive" by the devil to do his will.

If I'm reading these verses right, men do not have dominion over this world except perhaps in a physical sense; on a spiritual level the world seems to be tightly in the grip of Satan who, through humanity which he has brought into bondage to himself, shapes the physical world. But if this is so, mankind has only an illusory dominion over the world.

He does whatever He pleases, but within the limits of His word - He does not change His word.

Well, we see God in Scripture changing His mind, operating in a counterfactual way, and altering the manner in which He interacts with humanity...

it is confusion to believe that God can choose to supernaturally override a person's free will to save a marriage, but choose not to do so not to save the lost from hell.

Doesn't God override the free will of every person He brings to salvation? Left to our own devices, Scripture seems very clear that we would never choose God. Isn't this why Jesus says,

John 6:44
44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him... ?

It looks to me like God overrides human free will quite a lot. That is, He frequently acts to persuade us to Himself in a way that overcomes our resistance. God's powers of persuasion are far greater than our power to resist Him.

Jer 18:5-8 KJV
(5) Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying,
(6) O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.
(7) At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it;
(8) If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.

This isn't God acting independently of man's choice in the earth, overriding man's authority; it is confirmation that man is in control in the earth.

I'm not sure how you get to your conclusion from what is written in the passage. Verses 6 and 7 explain pretty clearly that God acts independently of human will. He plucks up and pulls down nations as He wills, just like a potter does whatever he wishes with the clay he possesses. Verse 8 also shows God's control: Only if the nation of Israel will obey Him will He forestall the judgment He intends for them. I don't see how that shows God confirming man's authority over the earth. The passage seems to be all about God confirming His authority over the earth and in particular the nations of it...

God still has ultimate dominion over the earth, but has restricted His independent-of-man exercise of that dominion to the 'great day' of the 'end times', when there is no longer anyone on the earth yielded to Him - Psalms 47 does not indicate otherwise.

Really? I'm confused then:

Psalms 47:2-4
2 For the Lord Most High is awesome; He is a great King over all the earth.
3 He will subdue the peoples under us, And the nations under our feet.
4 He will choose our inheritance for us...

This sounds exactly like God is acting unilaterally (though on behalf of Israel) in the world...

Psalms 47:8
8 God reigns over the nations...

This, too, sounds an awful lot like God is exercising direct sovereignty over the nations of the world.

Romans 9 18-21 has to be understood in light of John 3:14-17 - if 'whosoever' can choose life, then obviously God doesn't also acting independent of people's choice in having mercy and hardening people's hearts - Paul's words must be interpreted by the Lord's words.

Aren't Paul's words also God's words? If they are, then why must John 3:14-17 be the filter through which Romans 9:18-21 is to be understood? Why couldn't it be the other way 'round? I'm playing Devil's Advocate here a bit. I'm of a Molinist persuasion when it comes to Man's free will, so I hold a soft libertarian view of it. I just see a lot of apparent incongruity between what I read in Scripture and the dominionist ideas your espousing in this thread. I'm interested in how you reconcile the incongruities.

(16) The heaven, even the heavens, are the LORD'S: but the earth hath he given to the children of men.

I see that the earth is given to men as a habitation and as the apex species on the planet we can dominate all other species and shape to some degree the environments of the planet itself. But we have no control over the winds, or tides, or ocean currents, or shifting tectonic plates of the planet. We cannot control earth's orbit around the sun or the speed of the earth's rotation on its axis. Our "dominion" seems fairly limited, actually...I just don't see how this limited "dominion" prevents God from acting as He so evidently does in the affairs of Men.

My apologies to the OP for diverting this thread. If you mind this divergence at all, let me know and I'll cease my discussion with DiscipleHeLovesToo.

Selah.

 

[DiscipleHeLovesToo]

Hmmm...I get what you're saying....I just don't recall anywhere in God's word a promise that He will act fairly. Instead, I see instances where God acts quite unilaterally among humans, choosing among nations and people as He likes. Take, for example, Abraham to whom God made the promise that he would be the father of a great nation. How is this apparent divine favoritism fair? Wouldn't fairness require that God not have any special people, that He treat all people the same? What do you do with someone like Samson who was gifted by God in a very singular way? Why did Samson get superhuman strength and not anyone else? How is that fair? What about Mary the mother of Christ, or Paul, or any of the disciples for that matter? What was fair about God choosing only them to play the important roles that they did?

I wonder too: Hasn't God stopped suffering and evil in this world at many and various times as it pleased Him to do so? I certainly see this in Scripture. And I have heard modern believers tell of instances where God both alleviated suffering and prevented evil in their lives. So, God does stop suffering and evil in this world, just not yet in a once-for-all event like the Second Coming and Final Judgment. He allows evil and suffering to proceed as it pleases Him to do so, to achieve ends often beyond our scope of understanding.



Yeah, I get this but I just don't see what you're saying taught in Scripture. As I explained above, Scripture is full of instances where God acts in human affairs as it pleased Him to do so. And the verses I cited in my last post don't say that God stands merely as an owner of all, but also as an active agent in Creation, working in it in whatever way suits Him.

What do you do with these verses that indicates that Satan is in control of the world of men?

2 Corinthians 4:3-4
3 But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing,
4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.

This passage seems to be saying, in part, that every unsaved person labors under the blinding influence of the devil.

Ephesians 2:2-3
2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience,
3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

This passage seems to be indicating that all who have not been saved walk according to the "prince of the power of the air" who is the devil.

Ephesians 6:12
12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.

This verse seems to be telling us that behind and/or above the affairs of men stands the spiritual powers it describes.

2 Timothy 2:26
26 and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will.

This verse, too, seems to be implying that those who don't know God are "taken captive" by the devil to do his will.

If I'm reading these verses right, men do not have dominion over this world except perhaps in a physical sense; on a spiritual level the world seems to be tightly in the grip of Satan who, through humanity which he has brought into bondage to himself, shapes the physical world. But if this is so, mankind has only an illusory dominion over the world.



Well, we see God in Scripture changing His mind, operating in a counterfactual way, and altering the manner in which He interacts with humanity...



Doesn't God override the free will of every person He brings to salvation? Left to our own devices, Scripture seems very clear that we would never choose God. Isn't this why Jesus says,

John 6:44
44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him... ?

It looks to me like God overrides human free will quite a lot. That is, He frequently acts to persuade us to Himself in a way that overcomes our resistance. God's powers of persuasion are far greater than our power to resist Him.



I'm not sure how you get to your conclusion from what is written in the passage. Verses 6 and 7 explain pretty clearly that God acts independently of human will. He plucks up and pulls down nations as He wills, just like a potter does whatever he wishes with the clay he possesses. Verse 8 also shows God's control: Only if the nation of Israel will obey Him will He forestall the judgment He intends for them. I don't see how that shows God confirming man's authority over the earth. The passage seems to be all about God confirming His authority over the earth and in particular the nations of it...



Really? I'm confused then:

Psalms 47:2-4
2 For the Lord Most High is awesome; He is a great King over all the earth.
3 He will subdue the peoples under us, And the nations under our feet.
4 He will choose our inheritance for us...

This sounds exactly like God is acting unilaterally (though on behalf of Israel) in the world...

Psalms 47:8
8 God reigns over the nations...

This, too, sounds an awful lot like God is exercising direct sovereignty over the nations of the world.



Aren't Paul's words also God's words? If they are, then why must John 3:14-17 be the filter through which Romans 9:18-21 is to be understood? Why couldn't it be the other way 'round? I'm playing Devil's Advocate here a bit. I'm of a Molinist persuasion when it comes to Man's free will, so I hold a soft libertarian view of human free will. I just see a lot of apparent incongruity between what I see in Scripture and the dominionist ideas your espousing in this thread. I'm interested in how you reconcile the incongruities.



I see that the earth is given to men as a habitation and as the apex species on the planet we can dominate all other species and shape to some degree the environments of the planet itself. But we have no control over the winds, or tides, or ocean currents, or shifting tectonic plates of the planet. We cannot control earth's orbit around the sun or the speed of the earth's rotation on its axis. Our "dominion" seems fairly limited, actually...I just don't see how this limited "dominion" prevents God from acting as He so evidently does in the affairs of Men.

My apologies to the OP for diverting this thread. If you mind this divergence at all, let me know and I'll cease my discussion with DiscipleHeLovesToo.

Selah.

the reason i don't post in the debate forums is because i have learned that it is pointless to argue with someone who's as confident in their understanding as i am in mine when our understandings differ - pm me if you want to discuss this with an open mind - let's don't distract this thread from the OP's request for help

 

[Fleetwood95]

Brother I feel your pain. My wife divorced me 13 years into our marriage, and like you I was not without fault but it was nothing that should have led to divorce. It was a vicious attack on our marriage from the enemy. Three years after the divorce, God miraculously restored our marriage and we have been re-married for more than 2 years now. A few mouths ago, that devil tried to break us up again but God intervened and gave us the victory. Along with my testimony, I want to connect you to a website for help. I don't know if this brother is a christian or not, but his insight on marriage relationships, men and women are stunning and I truly believe God given. Please check out his website and also please subscribe to his frequent emails, they are loaded with very helpful information concerning you and your wife as far as understanding her actions and thoughts. www.manlymarriagerevival.com. I'm not trying to sell you this guy's book, although it is chock full of wisdom, but just check out his website and sign up for his free emails and see what you think. Trust me, it will help you and give you a plan as to what you can do to hepl restore your marriage and relationship. God bless.

 

[Goodbook]

another one I thought of that might help you is a guy that went through the same thing although he was the one who initiated the divorce - but they got back together -

Look up Gavin Macleod (he's the captain of the Love Boat) and his married couples ministry. http://www.covenantmarriages.com/index.html

 

[SeekingGod2]

When this thread devolved into a debate on theology, I kinda gave up posting. I've been posting on my blog about the ups and downs I go through every day (http://ajourneyto.wordpress.com).

I had four really good days, and today seemed like everything went back to square one. I constantly ask the Lord for strength, but on times even that feels inadequate. It's hard to stay positive and keep on doing the right thing. I know it's what I have to do. But it's hard when glimmers of hope turn out to be shimmering phantasms.

 

[DiscipleHeLovesToo]

what is faith if it's not believing God's word? what faith isn't is feelings; faith is of the heart. how do you release faith if not by speaking God's word? you do not release faith by speaking fear.

Php 4:13 KJV
(13) I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

who is it that can do all things through Christ? is it God? or is it you?

1Jn 5:4-5 KJV
(4) For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
(5) Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

whose faith overcomes the world? who is to believe that Jesus is the Son of God? is this what God must do? or what you must do?

Mat 12:37 KJV
(37) For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

what have your words been saying?