on becoming a christian over and over again...

[dms1972]

this is a bit difficult to explain, but I feel that over the course of my life I have become a christian repeatedly, the usual prayed the 'sinner's prayer', or come back again...I'll be honest I have always had doubts about my 'conversions'.

I think it goes back to early attempts at trying to become a christian. I have tried to resolve the problem theologically, philosophically, psychologically and pretty much any way I can think of.

I understand by the bible and theology there really should only be one christian initiation in life. One either is or isn't born-again.

But I can't understand my 'christian experience' which is very deficient, and lacking in assurance, if I am truly born-again.

Again I have heard many ways of explaining this kind of thing...and read many theological treatises on it. Some try to explain it as like a man on a plane who is anxious about flying, whereas others are not, and enjoy the flight. This doesn't really help because well - one might not be aboard.

I feel I am at times making my own theology to explain my deficient christian experience.

Is becoming a christian like boarding a plane, and is the christian life like relaxing and enjoying the flight?

So I don't know really am I a christian, or not, sometimes I feel I am, but feelings don't really answer the problem entirely because one can feel false sense of assurance too.

It could be my theology thats the problem, it could be that christians themselves disagree a bit on these issues.

I just feel even a christian (if I am one) very fragmented, or something.

If one's assurance comes merely from believing oneself to be a christian, isn't that dangerous?

 

[RC1970]

It's the difference between regeneration, which happens only once, and renewal, which can happen frequently. Or, sometimes its the growth spurt, followed by a plateau, followed by another growth spurt, followed by another plateau, and so on.

We all go through it.

 

[SinnerInTheHands]

this is a bit difficult to explain, but I feel that over the course of my life I have become a christian repeatedly, the usual prayed the 'sinner's prayer', or come back again...I'll be honest I have always had doubts about my 'conversions'.

First off, praying the "sinner's prayer" and becoming a Christian are two entirely different things. In fact, there are quite a few of us that consider the "sinner's prayer" completely apostate and contrary to proper Christian formation and the will of God.

I think it goes back to early attempts at trying to become a christian. I have tried to resolve the problem theologically, philosophically, psychologically and pretty much any way I can think of.

You cannot try and become a Christian. Whether or not you become a Christian is (thankfully) not your decision.

I understand by the bible and theology there really should only be one christian initiation in life. One either is or isn't born-again.

From here on out, I'm simply going to answer honestly. If you have faith in the triune God and in the salvation-giving sacrifice of Christ on the cross, you are a Christian. Yet this faith is a gift from God; it is not something which you choose to have anymore than you choose to be saved.

All of us have lapses in judgment and faith. That doesn't make us any less Christian.

 

[dms1972]

It's the difference between regeneration, which happens only once, and renewal, which can happen frequently. Or, sometimes its the growth spurt, followed by a plateau, followed by another growth spurt, followed by another plateau, and so on.

We all go through it.

Thanks for making the distinction.

It doesn't seem like a plateau, for at times it seems I have gone backwards.

 

[dms1972]

First off, praying the "sinner's prayer" and becoming a Christian are two entirely different things. In fact, there are quite a few of us that consider the "sinner's prayer" completely apostate and contrary to proper Christian formation and the will of God.

Ok I think I get what you are saying, what I mean is beginning over again... I was thinking about the difference in how the Gospel might have been presented say 400 years ago, and how its presented today and was nearly going to start a thread on that. But Im not a big fan of 'calvinism', and it hasn't helped me much, for one thing I don't think all calvinists even have understood Calvin. In any case this a big part of the problem - conversion to various "theologies".

I don't have big issue with the 'sinner's prayer' except there can be nagging doubts about not praying in my own words, and whether one is sincere or not. But I have begun again as many times in my own words.

You cannot try and become a Christian. Whether or not you become a Christian is (thankfully) not your decision.

Yes, I used the expression "trying to become" deliberately, cause it seems that is what was going on. But I agree and disagree with you on the decisional aspect. I don't think its that simple. Perhaps decision is not the best word, but surely there has to be a response??

From here on out, I'm simply going to answer honestly. If you have faith in the triune God and in the salvation-giving sacrifice of Christ on the cross, you are a Christian. Yet this faith is a gift from God; it is not something which you choose to have anymore than you choose to be saved.

Ok so then there is nothing I can do, or should try to do? I should just leave it in God's hands?

Sorry I am not getting this. I'd agree that faith is a gift, but faith in Jesus death on the Cross?

What is this faith? Faith that God exists? That he is triune? That he is favorably disposed towards me?

To be honest theology isn't always helpful here, and I really don't want another debate about calvinism.

 

[Mediaeval]

You have made an important discovery, namely, that assurance cannot come from looking at one's own faith or prayers or anything else we do. For assurance, we must look outside ourselves to the Gospel. The fact is that God is your heavenly Father already. Christ is the Savior of the world, and therefore your Savior too. Your faith and prayers do not make these facts to be true, rather, these facts must be the basis of faith and prayer. You might like Thomas Erskine of Linlathen's essays, the best I've found, on the subject of the relationship between the Gospel and faith. https://archive.org/stream/unconditionalfr00erskuoft#page/n5/mode/2up

 

[ViaCrucis]

You have made an important discovery, namely, that assurance cannot come from looking at one's own faith or prayers or anything else we do. For assurance, we must look outside ourselves to the Gospel. The fact is that God is your heavenly Father already. Christ is the Savior of the world, and therefore your Savior too. Your faith and prayers do not make these facts to be true, rather, these facts must be the basis of faith and prayer.

^ This. All this.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[dms1972]

You have made an important discovery, namely, that assurance cannot come from looking at one's own faith or prayers or anything else we do. For assurance, we must look outside ourselves to the Gospel. The fact is that God is your heavenly Father already. Christ is the Savior of the world, and therefore your Savior too. Your faith and prayers do not make these facts to be true, rather, these facts must be the basis of faith and prayer. You might like Thomas Erskine of Linlathen's essays, the best I've found, on the subject of the relationship between the Gospel and faith. https://archive.org/stream/unconditionalfr00erskuoft#page/n5/mode/2up

Ok I'll take a look. Thanks.

Not disagreeing with you in what you say, I tend to think similiar. I've read a bit of Macdonald btw and have a lot of respect. But beleive me I have read across the theological map on this.

Where does regeneration and justification fit into Macdonald's theology?

I find there is a difference in theologies were there are some theologies that teach that before a point one is "spiritually dead" - then justification and regeneration takes place.
On the other hand there are universalistic theologies.

I get people in one church asking me "Do you believe Christ died for you?" with the emphasis on for you. But to be honest I don't know what I believe anymore.

 

[ViaCrucis]

I get people in one church asking me "Do you believe Christ died for you?" with the emphasis on for you. But to be honest I don't know what I believe anymore.

Whether you believe it or not, this is what the Gospel objectively is: Christ died for you. That is the Gospel. The Gospel isn't contingent on whether you believe it or do not believe it, the Gospel remains the Gospel regardless of us.

Our trust in the Gospel is our becoming the benefactor of the Gospel, through which God operates to take the objective truth of the Gospel and deliver it to us. That is, it is objectively true that Christ died for you, and that by His death on the cross all your sins are forgiven. They are, objectively so, Christ's death is the forgiveness of your sins. The question then is not what can you do to receive God's forgiveness, but by what means do you receive the benefit of God's forgiveness? The Scriptures teach us that it is through faith, and how do we receive faith? From ourselves? No, but instead it is the gift of God (Ephesians 2:8-9). By what means does God give us faith? Again, according to Scripture, "Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of Christ" (Romans 10:17). Faith is God's gift which is given you by God's Word, by the preaching of the Gospel and in the Sacraments. That is, Baptism grants you faith because herein the waters of Baptism is also the very Word of God, namely, all the promises which God has attached to Baptism. Likewise the Lord's Supper, because God's Word is attached to the bread and wine in the Supper by which God grants you faith.

Faith comes not from yourself, but from outside yourself, it is given to you by God through those Means He has promised to act in this way: Word and Sacrament.

It is this faith (that is, radical trust) through which the objective reality of the Gospel actually accomplishes what it promises. The Gospel declares your sins as forgiven, because they are forgiven, trust this because it is true.

Here is the Gospel: Christ died for you and your sins are forgiven, believe the Gospel. Believe this good news.

It is not you that accomplishes these things, all of this comes from outside of you: it is found externally in the Gospel, from God, for you. Don't believe in yourself, don't believe in your faith, believe in the Christ who now saves you.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[oi_antz]

I get people in one church asking me "Do you believe Christ died for you?" with the emphasis on for you. But to be honest I don't know what I believe anymore.

What was the alternative for Jesus than to die? Would you be here today if that was the case?

You seem to be confused about what being Christian is. Why not simply seek to do His will?

 

[Emmy]

Dear dms1972. I understand your feelings, and Jesus shows us a sure way to prove to God that we truly Love Him and want to do His Will. In Matthew 22: 35-40: Jesus tells us: " The first and great Commandment is: Love God with all thy heart, with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. The second is like this: love your neighbour as yourselves.
( neighbour being: all we know and all we meet, friends and not friends) In Matthew 7: 7-10: we are told: " ask and you shall receive," we ask for Love and Joy, thank God, and share all love and joy with our neighbour. We keep doing this, and God will see us, and bless us.
The Bible tells us to change from selfishness to loving and caring for our neighbour, God is Love and God wants loving sons and daughters. We might stumble and forget at times, but then we ask God to forgive us and carry on being a friend to our neighbour. The Holy Spirit will help and guide us and Jesus our Saviour will lead us all the way:
JESUS IS THE WAY. In Luke 10: 25-28: Jesus is asked: " Master, what must I do to inherit eternal life?"
Jesus answered: " You know the two Commandments to Love God and love your neighbour, DO THIS AND YOU SHALL LIVE. I say this with love, dms. Greetings from Emmy, your sister in Christ.

 

[lutherangerman]

It seems to me that maybe you draw too much of your inspiration to believe in Jesus from christianity, from christendom at large, from being a "christian". But this is wrong and even if it were successful it would only make you proud of christianity, and not put you on the way of Jesus Christ. It's really not about christianity, it's about God and the world, God and humanity, and God and you. Jesus' Gospel is a cosmic gospel and has little to do with making moral lists of do's and don't's and keeping a record of your mistakes and remaining in bondage to guilt and fear.

God has saved all of mankind on the cross, simply doing for us there what we cannot do for ourselves. The muslim and the christian are both saved by this Jesus on the Cross, and by this Jesus who rose from the dead. Now the task is to move closer to Jesus to live and also then to die with him. This is the sanctification process. If it were about salvation from God's wrath it would be no different from the idea of salvation that the pharisees had. Do not sin, repent, do not sin again, etc. But in Christ we have been saved not by our efforts but by what Jesus has done without our contribution. Rest on that safe foundation and try to approach God anew every day. He is waiting for you.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Thanks for making the distinction.

It doesn't seem like a plateau, for at times it seems I have gone backwards.

That can happen some times. We do still have the choice to listen to the Holy Spirit in our hearts, who convicts us of our sin and tries to get us to turn away from that sin and to follow Him (God). You need to have a good repent session in prayer with God. Talk with him about the decisions that you have been making. Repent for them, turn away from doing those sins again. You may fall occasionally and if you do, repent again and get back up and do better again. Christians go through this, the trick is to get back up again and do better the next time.

Faith, love and righteousness grow. They grow by our choosing to live in a certain way. Thankfulness and being grateful is huge. I am so thankful that the Lord has patiently waited for me sometimes when I have faltered. I am thankful that His love is always there and that he has never grown weary or left my side. In your life, friends, family (people who are imperfect) will hurt you. Remember God is perfect and you can tell Him everything. He never does not want to hear everything that you tell Him. He is the One that you can trust no matter what.

Pour out your heart to God. Don't be afraid to tell Him what you have done, because He already knows. But He wants you to tell Him. He wants you to know Him. He wants to be a part of your life!

Try to put aside even 10 minutes a day. 5 minutes to read the Bible and 5 minutes of prayer. Put aside that time, like first thing in the morning or after dinner. After a while you can extend that time or add prayer before you go to bed at night.

You'll be fine. God bless you and keep you. May He let His face shine upon you and bless you with faith and love.

 

[Hospes]

this is a bit difficult to explain, but I feel that over the course of my life I have become a christian repeatedly, the usual prayed the 'sinner's prayer', or come back again...I'll be honest I have always had doubts about my 'conversions'.

I think it goes back to early attempts at trying to become a christian. I have tried to resolve the problem theologically, philosophically, psychologically and pretty much any way I can think of.

I understand by the bible and theology there really should only be one christian initiation in life. One either is or isn't born-again.

But I can't understand my 'christian experience' which is very deficient, and lacking in assurance, if I am truly born-again.

Again I have heard many ways of explaining this kind of thing...and read many theological treatises on it. Some try to explain it as like a man on a plane who is anxious about flying, whereas others are not, and enjoy the flight. This doesn't really help because well - one might not be aboard.

I feel I am at times making my own theology to explain my deficient christian experience.

Is becoming a christian like boarding a plane, and is the christian life like relaxing and enjoying the flight?

So I don't know really am I a christian, or not, sometimes I feel I am, but feelings don't really answer the problem entirely because one can feel false sense of assurance too.

It could be my theology thats the problem, it could be that christians themselves disagree a bit on these issues.

I just feel even a christian (if I am one) very fragmented, or something.

If one's assurance comes merely from believing oneself to be a christian, isn't that dangerous?

I grew up in a solidly evangelistic Christian home and, like you, prayed for Jesus to "come into my heart" and recited the sinner's prayer. Per the instruction given me, I became a Christian repeatedly. To make my story short, at age 15 God reconciled me to himself. The only prayer - through many tears of joy - I remember making was "I've got it." Later in life I ran across an adult who wrote a note upon his own conversion and I recognized his experience as being the same as my own:

The year of grace 1654.
Monday, 23 November...
From about half-past ten in the evening
until about half-past midnight.
Fire.
The God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, the God of Jacob.
Not of the philosophers and intellectuals.
Certitude, certitude, feeling, joy, peace.
The God of Jesus Christ.
My God and your God [in Latin, accusative case].
Your God will be my God.
Forgetfulness of the world and of everything except God.
One finds oneself only by way of the directions taught
in the gospel.
The grandeur of the human soul.
Oh just Father, the world has not known you,
but I have known you.
Joy, joy,,, joy, tears of joy...
(I have edited Blaise Pascal's note. If you want to read it all it is simple to find it online.)
​

My point: it was God who saved me. He stepped into my life and brought a spiritually dead 15-year-old kid to life. He gave me life and my response has been to pursue him ever since. If you'd like, you can recognize I hold to reformed theology and discard my input. But it is my understanding of scripture, confirmed by my actual experience, that brought me to where I am.

If one's assurance comes merely from believing oneself to be a christian, isn't that dangerous?

In short, yes.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Examine your heart. Do you believe that Jesus Christ was and is the Son of God who came to earth, suffered and died for the sins of all mankind?

Do you believe that you are a sinner (someone who has broken even ONE of the 10 commandments of God)?

If you have sinned (even once) than you are not holy and no one who is unrighteous will enter the Kingdom of God.

But there is Good News! Christ died for your sins and mine. That day on the cross 2000 years ago. Sincere belief in the Son of God, Jesus Christ dying for your sin can cleanse you of ALL the sin which makes you unrighteous to enter the Kingdom of God. Repent to Jesus for your sin. Sincerely state your belief in Him, the only path to the forgivenss of sin. Ask Him to cleanse you of all unrighteousness and forgive your sins.

This is what one needs to be saved.

"For God so loved the world, that He gave His Only Begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life".

The only thing separating you from God is your sin. Ask for forgiveness now and believe upon Jesus Christ who died for you and me!

This is grace, God's free gift to us. The gift of Salvation, for the forgivenss of sin and the cleansing of our hearts and minds of unrighteousness. Believe upon the one who saves.

 

[dms1972]

My point: it was God who saved me. He stepped into my life and brought a spiritually dead 15-year-old kid to life. He gave me life and my response has been to pursue him ever since. If you'd like, you can recognize I hold to reformed theology and discard my input. But it is my understanding of scripture, confirmed by my actual experience, that brought me to where I am.

Ok, no I wouldn't discard your input simply because you hold a reformed theology (though I have some issues that doesn't mean I wholly reject things. It would be the manner someone replies that would lead me to discard their reply. Even then I might not discard everything.

I can almost understand what you are saying about theology and experience lining up. And I can understand the importance of that. I don't wish to question that at all.

But I don't subscribe so to speak to any single theology. If one does thats fine, and if experience and that line up, even better.

I have Pascal's book (or anthology of his writting) so I had read of his dramatic conversion - I don't think most have an experience like that.

But I think most theologies are built on conversion experiences to some extent. The difficulty is when one tries to make their conversion fit a theology, or begins to focus primarily on theology. I may have had a conversion years ago I am not sure, there have been different times. Part of my difficulty is fitting into a church, I don't find this easy - others do and it seems to progress simply for them.

 

[dms1972]

Examine your heart. Do you believe that Jesus Christ was and is the Son of God who came to earth, suffered and died for the sins of all mankind?

Do you believe that you are a sinner (someone who has broken even ONE of the 10 commandments of God)?

I think what I have always done was to go through Paul's letter to Romans from the start and take on board what it says about the human condition.

But over the years I have gone to psychotherapy (I have looked for pastoral care in the church, if the problem is not being resolved with a bit of bible study and prayer some pastors deem it too complex or deep - which is ironic to me as they should specialise at the deeper levels, but they are not trained so they don't go there) and the psychotherapy sometimes can be humanistic.

 

[Sophrosyne]

I think for many there is resistance to the Idea that salvation is a free gift that we can only accept and that it is so great of a gift that we can never repay God for it. We either take it for granted or we feel we are obligated to perform because if it. It is these two notions that can lead to the endless cycle of coming back to God again and thinking you need to be "resaved" in it all.
I felt that I couldn't do that myself and didn't come back to God until I understood who God is and what salvation truly is and my standing and worth to God throughout the process before and after.
One of the main reasons people fail in their Christian walk is they set the standards themselves and when they fail (in their minds) to meet them they essentially feel a "need" to reject themselves as worthy enough to "be a Christian". This thinking has many in bondage to self set legalistic standards or other legalistic standards others set that they must pass. The idea of all of this stands in contrast to the truth that God IS the standard set (perfection) and that nothing we can do is able for us to reach that standard and that God himself completed that standard for us. The moment we have this idea we must do this and that and equate it with being a "good" Christian we are ourselves setting a stumbling block in our own path or walk with the Lord that we end up tripping over and when that happens we give up thinking it is too hard to be a Christian.
In reality we are saved by simply believing, trusting, having faith in the one who saved us. We have to make this front and center of who we are as Christians not deeds performed that would prove to others that we are these don't make us Christian at all we become a deed doer when we walk in Christ not a Christian by walking in deeds.
I see often people in the forums proclaiming one must "do this" and "do that" and "not sin" otherwise they are not a Christian (unsaved) God knows our true nature and if we focus on not sinning we aren't focusing on God loving like we are commanded to do. Some would tell you not to murder and that is good enough... not to commit adultery and you are a "good" Christian but Jesus himself set standards that we aren't even allowed to hate others because hating our brother is to him... murder and lustful thoughts are like adultery to God. One can focus on "nots" or one can focus on Love but focusing on "nots" gets you sooner or later tied in "knots" while focusing on Love we end up avoiding things that would have us in "nots".

 

[dms1972]

Thanks again for replies.

Not disagring with whats been said. But I keep seeing something in regard to "salvation" in the replies. Its past-tense - saved. I suppose one can get into muddle in how one thinks of it. But Jesus used many parables, He never really said "salvation is defined", it was always the "Kingdom of God is like..."

I think what can happen is one gets too abstract and theological, trying to reestablish a connection intellectually.

 

[ToBeLoved]

I think what I have always done was to go through Paul's letter to Romans from the start and take on board what it says about the human condition.

But over the years I have gone to psychotherapy (I have looked for pastoral care in the church, if the problem is not being resolved with a bit of bible study and prayer some pastors deem it too complex or deep - which is ironic to me as they should specialise at the deeper levels, but they are not trained so they don't go there) and the psychotherapy sometimes can be humanistic.

Romans is one of my favorite books of the Bible. Awesome to read!