Of hell...

[aiki]

Jesus also taught about what happens after we die in his parable about Lazarus the Beggar and the Rich Man. In every other parable that Jesus taught he used what was familiar to his listeners and what was real to analogize. Some would like to argue that in this one instance with Lazarus and the Rich Man, Christ abandoned both characteristics of his parables. Suddenly, he was resorting to total fiction in teaching his truth. But why would he do so? Consider the following quotation:

"Think about it for a minute: If at death people simply lapse into a state of non-existence or unconsciousness, then what is the point of Luke 16:22-28? Are we to conclude that Jesus was teaching something based entirely on a falsehood - something that was wholly untrue in every way? If the rich man and Lazarus were not conscious after death, then the answer would have to be yes....Clearly, Jesus never illustrated His teachings with a falsehood. We must conclude that Luke 16 portrays a real-life situation and should be taken as solid evidence for conscious existence after death. Any other interpretation makes an absurdity out of the text." - Ron Rhodes "Reasoning from the Scriptures with the Jehovah's Witnesses." pg. 326.

Selah.

 

[aiki]

Excellent sourcing. Thanks!

You're welcome.

 

[Stony ground]

So, Aiki, What is your view on those who died before Christ? Were they all hellbound? Were any righteous enough to earn paradise without the blood of Jesus?

 

[Albion]

Jesus also taught about what happens after we die in his parable about Lazarus the Beggar and the Rich Man. In every other parable that Jesus taught he used what was familiar to his listeners and what was real to analogize. Some would like to argue that in this one instance with Lazarus and the Rich Man, Christ abandoned both characteristics of his parables. Suddenly, he was resorting to total fiction in teaching his truth. But why would he do so? Consider the following quotation:

"Think about it for a minute: If at death people simply lapse into a state of non-existence or unconsciousness, then what is the point of Luke 16:22-28? Are we to conclude that Jesus was teaching something based entirely on a falsehood - something that was wholly untrue in every way? If the rich man and Lazarus were not conscious after death, then the answer would have to be yes....Clearly, Jesus never illustrated His teachings with a falsehood. We must conclude that Luke 16 portrays a real-life situation and should be taken as solid evidence for conscious existence after death. Any other interpretation makes an absurdity out of the text." - Ron Rhodes "Reasoning from the Scriptures with the Jehovah's Witnesses." pg. 326.

Selah.

Not sure I can buy this. The idea of consciousness after physical death and of a heaven and a hell we can agree with, but the idea that is also part of the story is that Lazarus was able to see into the other place like he was looking through a window. I don't know any theologian or church that says this is how it will be. The story seems more like Jesus taking what was a commonly held idea about the afterlife among the Jews and used it to make his own point, not that it was correct in all respects.

 

[Cuddles333]

The subject of judgmental fire in the Old Testament is figurative. The Isaiah 66:16 'fire' passage is figurative because the 'sword' is figurative.
It is also obvious that the 'maggots' eating the 'decayed flesh' in the 'fire' that never goes out, is definitely figurative. (Isaiah 66:24)

The Israelites knew only that the dead go down into the earth somewhere and slept until the Messiah came down from heaven and resurrected them to live in His kingdom. This was why they would bury their dead and one year later, come to recover their bones to put in a special place to await the Messiah's return.

However, during the Israelites captivity, they learned Zoroastrianism, which taught that there is only one God 'Ahura Mazda' and His Spirit, and the evil Spirit. At the end of the age, the Messiah was to resurrect the righteous and cleanse the universe with a cleansing fire, and there would then result a new heavens and new earth.

Near the end of the Israelite captivity, Daniel writes his version of this resurrection in (Dan.12:2).

When we then go into the New Testament, we find that there is one group of Israelite leaders that believe in the Zoroastrian belief of life after death (Pharisees) and another group who hold to their own ancient belief of non-existence (Sadducees).

There has long been disagreement among Bible scholars if the Apostle Paul wrote (2Thessalonians) and (Hebrews), and if the Apostle Peter wrote (2Peter) and if even the book of Jude was written by any Holy Spirit inspired follower of Christ. These books or 'letters' go against the grain of the flow of the New Testament. However, since Jesus used the burning garbage pit just outside of Jerusalem as an illustration of punishment with an eternal consequence, it follows that the punishment could be even worse in the afterlife. If God rewards eternally, it follows that He punishes eternally.

If the scholars who believed and those of today who believe that Paul and Peter did not write those letters, and the writer of 'Jude' is not authentic, it follows that when a believer's body dies, their spirit/soul goes immediately to (Paradise) Heaven. That when an unbeliever's body dies, their spirit/soul goes immediately to eternal punishment. When Christ returns, it follows in rhythm with (1Thess.4:13-17). The dead unbelievers will have already been in punishment and the living unbelievers will have already joined them, just before the dead and still living believers join Christ.

Now at death

 

[ViaCrucis]

Noticed something interesting about the bible. Hell is mentioned quite a few times in the OT, but not in the context of torment. It's referred to more as just... the place you go, as opposed to a place of torment. Sheol, i believe, is a better translation, the house of the dead. The God of the OT is quite unreserved about killing people whose behavior he does not like, or in quite a few cases people in proximity to people who's behavior he does not like, but after they're dead, he seems to be done with them.

In the New testament, its mainly Jesus who expounds upon hell as the lake of fire, eternal torment, wailing, gnashing of teeth etc. In some contrast to the tone of his other teachings.

What your take on this? Is this simply progressive revelation? Or did the rules change. Did the lake of fire exist before [sic] Jesus?

You are correct the Hebrew concept of She'ol--the abode of the dead--is what is mentioned in the Old Testament. By Jesus' time She'ol (often translated as Hades in Greek) was regarded as divided into two halves; the abode of the righteous dead or Gan-Eden (called Paradise from the Greek Paradeisos in the New Testament and also Abraham's Bosom) and the abode of the wicked dead or Ge-Hinnom (Gehennah in the Greek of the New Testament). Gan-Eden literally means "Garden of Eden" and Ge-Hinnom literally means "Valley of Hinnom" places which in Jewish religion and history were significant. The Garden of Eden is somewhat self-explanatory (further the Greek word Paradeisos is a Persian loanword meaning "an enclosed garden"). The Valley of Hinnom may need a bit more explaining: this was an actual valley located outside the walls of ancient Jerusalem, in the Old Testament the valley is depicted as the center for the cult of Molech worship, wherein a large metal image of Molech was heated until red hot and infants and children were placed the idols hands to be roasted alive as a sacrifice to Molech; this connotation made the valley regarded as a cursed place. During the Roman occupation of Judea the valley was used as a garbage dump for Jerusalem, the waste and refuse being dumped there along with the bodies of criminals and lepers, they were left to rot in the valley with the waste. So this imagery of fire, undying worm, gnashing of teeth largely comes from this actual Hinnom Valley.

It's probably going a bit too far to try and argue that these images of Gehenna ought be taken too literally: the point tends to be about the abodes of the righteous and the wicked.

As an aside, when we see Jesus turning to the thief on his right and saying "You will be with Me in Paradise" Jesus is not talking about "Heaven" but Paradise, the abode of the righteous dead in She'ol--which is to say the thief would be counted among the righteous. Christian teaching is that Jesus descended into Hades (archaic language: "descended into Hell") whereby He destroyed the power of death, the devil, and Hades (c.f. the Eastern Orthodox icon of the Anastasis, or St. John Chrysostom's Paschal Homily).

The language of a "lake of fire" comes not from Jesus talking about Gehenna, but is from the Apocalypse of St. John; and given the apocalyptic nature of the text a literal reading of this would also probably be unwise (this is also the text that has multi-headed monsters coming out of the sea and man-faced locust demons coming out of bottomless pits, it's not meant to be taken literally).

-CryptoLutheran

 

[aiki]

So, Aiki, What is your view on those who died before Christ? Were they all hellbound? Were any righteous enough to earn paradise without the blood of Jesus?

No human from Adam onward has ever been righteous enough on their own to earn their way into heaven. (Ps. 14:3; 53:3; Ro. 3:10, 23 ) Does this mean every OT person was "hellbound"? No, I don't think so. Scripture is very clear that some OT people were redeemed from the second death in hell. (Mk. 9:2-4; He. 11) Scripture also tells us that the faith of OT saints in God was accounted unto them for righteousness, which had, I believe, an important bearing on their eternal destiny. (Ro. 4; He. 11) I think, too, that the atonement of Christ was applied retroactively to OT saints who were sanctified by the blood sacrifices they made in accordance with the law of God. Christ's atonement was for all sin - past, present and future. (He. 7:27; 9:11-15; 10:1-18)

Selah.

 

[Stony ground]

Thankyou everybody for your very interesting views.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

I agree that Isaiah has the strongest reference to hell, as it was referenced by Jesus.


Isa 66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

Mark 9:43-44 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Below are some other referrences to the firey end of the wicked found in the Old Testament, there are more but I have not had the time to look them up. Maybe do search for fire etc. E-sword http://www.e-sword.net/ is a good tool for searching the bible.


Psa 21:9 Thou shalt make them as a fiery oven in the time of thine anger: the LORD shall swallow them up in his wrath, and the fire shall devour them.

Mal 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.

Praise God, He is merciful and kind, and wants each of us to be delivered from that place of torment. Why are some very wicked people still alive, God wants them delivered from hell, he is giving each of us time to repent.