Of hell...

[Stony ground]

Noticed something interesting about the bible. Hell is mentioned quite a few times in the OT, but not in the context of torment. It's referred to more as just... the place you go, as opposed to a place of torment. Sheol, i believe, is a better translation, the house of the dead. The God of the OT is quite unreserved about killing people whose behavior he does not like, or in quite a few cases people in proximity to people who's behavior he does not like, but after they're dead, he seems to be done with them.

In the New testament, its mainly Jesus who expounds upon hell as the lake of fire, eternal torment, wailing, gnashing of teeth etc. In some contrast to the tone of his other teachings.

What your take on this? Is this simply progressive revelation? Or did the rules change. Did the lake of fire exist before [sic] Jesus?

 

[ClothedInGrace]

Whether it did or not doesn't matter, because Hell is quite plainly revealed through Jesus.

Matthew 25:46
Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.

 

[oi_antz]

Noticed something interesting about the bible. Hell is mentioned quite a few times in the OT, but not in the context of torment. It's referred to more as just... the place you go, as opposed to a place of torment. Sheol, i believe, is a better translation, the house of the dead. The God of the OT is quite unreserved about killing people whose behavior he does not like, or in quite a few cases people in proximity to people who's behavior he does not like, but after they're dead, he seems to be done with them.

In the New testament, its mainly Jesus who expounds upon hell as the lake of fire, eternal torment, wailing, gnashing of teeth etc. In some contrast to the tone of his other teachings.

What your take on this? Is this simply progressive revelation? Or did the rules change. Did the lake of fire exist before [sic] Jesus?

Can you please list a few verses so we can see first hand what you have in mind? I would expect some better revelation through Jesus Christ, as the only one who has ever had perfect faith.

 

[Stony ground]

Whether it did or not doesn't matter, because Hell is quite plainly revealed through Jesus.

Matthew 25:46
Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.

Indeed. Why do you think the nature of hell was not revealed in the OT?

 

[BabylonWeary]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gehenna

 

[Stony ground]

Can you please list a few verses so we can see first hand what you have in mind? I would expect some better revelation through Jesus Christ, as the only one who has ever had perfect faith.

Surely.

OT
Job 17:16 Will it go down to the bars of Sheol? Shall we descend together into the dust?”

Dust. no fire. This is fairly typical of the references to hell (sheol) in the OT. Its much more neutral than...

NT Mark 9:43-48: And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched."

Luke 16:24: "And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame."

Revelation 20:13-15: "...hell delivered up the dead which were in them...And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

 

[ClothedInGrace]

Indeed. Why do you think the nature of hell was not revealed in the OT?

Probably because the nature of eternal life in Christ was not revealed either. However the focus on being God's people is still the same. There is judgement for the wicked and mercy for his people.

 

[Stony ground]

I suppose then that one could say that the NT amplified the OT. The mercy changed to eternal bliss and the punishment changed from mere oblivion to torment?

 

[oi_antz]

Surely.

OT
Job 17:16 Will it go down to the bars of Sheol? Shall we descend together into the dust?”

Dust. no fire. This is fairly typical of the references to hell (sheol) in the OT. Its much more neutral than...

NT Mark 9:43-48: And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched."

Luke 16:24: "And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame."

Revelation 20:13-15: "...hell delivered up the dead which were in them...And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

Does the old testament talk about an alternative to Sheol? Can you please quote those bits you have in mind? I remember reading in Acts the difference between Pharisee and Sadducee beliefs concerning resurrection. I wonder whether old testament even had a grasp on the nature of life after death. Even whether it seemed like a real hope to them. We know of course in the post-resurrection context that we expect Jesus to lead the resurrection and sorting of all nations, but there is no way we should immediately expect this context to have been known before His resurrection.

 

[ClothedInGrace]

I suppose then that one could say that the NT amplified the OT. The mercy changed to eternal bliss and the punishment changed from mere oblivion to torment?

Well Revelation speaks of the dead coming to life for judgement, so I assume those from the OT will be judged as well. Sheol or Hades as it is called is just a temporary holding cell until Judgement.

 

[Stony ground]

Does the old testament talk about an alternative to Sheol? Can you please quote those bits you have in mind? I remember reading in Acts the difference between Pharisee and Sadducee beliefs concerning resurrection. I wonder whether old testament even had a grasp on the nature of life after death. Even whether it seemed like a real hope to them. We know of course in the post-resurrection context that we expect Jesus to lead the resurrection and sorting of all nations, but there is no way we should immediately expect this context to have been known before His resurrection.

So far as I know, the ot is mainly silent on the afterlife. From memory the pharisees believed there was something, the saducees did not (that was why they were sad u see).

The only ot verse I can bring to mind which hints pretty strongly at an afterlife is :-
And I will dwell in the house of the Lord forever” Psalm 23:4,6

But as an atheist, I'm probably not the person to ask

 

[Stony ground]

Well Revelation speaks of the dead coming to life for judgement, so I assume those from the OT will be judged as well. Sheol or Hades as it is called is just a temporary holding cell until Judgement.

Ah, that's interesting. I believe the Catholic limbo was said to serve a similar purpose.

So, dead BC are all in sheol, dead AD are in heaven or hell as appropriate, and the bc dead get allocated when jesus returns?

 

[ClothedInGrace]

Ah, that's interesting. I believe the Catholic limbo was said to serve a similar purpose.

So, dead BC are all in sheol, dead AD are in heaven or hell as appropriate, and the bc dead get allocated when jesus returns?

Well, I actually believe the dead in Christ also are in sheol until the first resurrection. There really isn't any scripture that says someone goes immediately to heaven or hell after they die. Heaven or Hell is after judgement, and even Heaven will be a Heaven on Earth sorta deal.

 

[oi_antz]

So far as I know, the ot is mainly silent on the afterlife. From memory the pharisees believed there was something, the saducees did not (that was why they were sad u see).

The only ot verse I can bring to mind which hints pretty strongly at an afterlife is :-
And I will dwell in the house of the Lord forever” Psalm 23:4,6

But as an atheist, I'm probably not the person to ask

Right. I think you should be seeking and finding it, because it is sort of going to lead to the answer you want. Up to you though. I know most atheists like to draw out the discussion as long as possible and make Christians run around in circles. I'll keep watching for now

 

[Stony ground]

Well, I actually believe the dead in Christ also are in sheol until the first resurrection. There really isn't any scripture that says someone goes immediately to heaven or hell after they die. Heaven or Hell is after judgement, and even Heaven will be a Heaven on Earth sorta deal.

How about luke 23:43, Jesus answered him, "Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise

 

[Stony ground]

Right. I think you should be seeking and finding it, because it is sort of going to lead to the answer you want. Up to you though. I know most atheists like to draw out the discussion as long as possible and make Christians run around in circles. I'll keep watching for now

Just interested in what people think is all. I still find theology interesting from this side of the fence...

 

[Albion]

Well, I actually believe the dead in Christ also are in sheol until the first resurrection. There really isn't any scripture that says someone goes immediately to heaven or hell after they die. Heaven or Hell is after judgement, and even Heaven will be a Heaven on Earth sorta deal.

It depends on one's religious orientation, I suppose, but the most common belief is that there is an immediate judgment and that we do go immediately to either heaven or hell. Also that the "BC" dead--the righteous dead, that is--were released to go to heaven also, at the death of Christ. There are indeed verses in Scripture that suggest a consciousness after death, whereas most people who take the "Sheol" approach think that it is state of "soul sleep." That's considered cultic by some Christians, by the way, since it negates a part of the nature of man--having an eternal soul.

 

[faroukfarouk]

Well, I actually believe the dead in Christ also are in sheol until the first resurrection. There really isn't any scripture that says someone goes immediately to heaven or hell after they die. Heaven or Hell is after judgement, and even Heaven will be a Heaven on Earth sorta deal.

'Absent from the body';'present with the Lord' (2 Corinthians 5.8).

 

[aiki]

What your take on this? Is this simply progressive revelation? Or did the rules change. Did the lake of fire exist before [sic] Jesus?

Isaiah 33:14
14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; Fearfulness has seized the hypocrites: "Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? Who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?"

Matthew 18:8
8 If your hand or foot causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life lame or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the everlasting fire.

So, if the OT Jews did not have a concept of Hell like the one Jesus described, why does Isaiah speak of the sinners of Zion being afraid of being cast into "everlasting fire"?

Isaiah 66:15-16
15 For behold, the Lord will come with fire And with His chariots, like a whirlwind, To render His anger with fury, And His rebuke with flames of fire. 16 For by fire and by His sword The Lord will judge all flesh; And the slain of the Lord shall be many.

Matthew 25:41
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:

Revelation 19:15
15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. (see also Rev. 20:11-15)

Isaiah says that God will judge "all flesh by fire and by His sword" and "rebuke with flames of fire," which we see echoed by Christ and explained very clearly in the apostle John's Revelation. The fiery punishment of Hell does not seem utterly unknown among the Jews of the OT.

Isaiah 66:24
24 "And they shall go forth and look Upon the corpses of the men Who have transgressed against Me. For their worm does not die, And their fire is not quenched. They shall be an abhorrence to all flesh."


Mark 9:43-48 (NKJV)
43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched--
44 where 'Their worm does not die, And the fire is not quenched.'
45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame, rather than having two feet, to be cast into hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched--
46 where 'Their worm does not die, And the fire is not quenched.'
47 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire--
48 where 'Their worm does not die, And the fire is not quenched.'

Jesus, speaking of the fiery judgment of Hell, quotes the OT prophet Isaiah, which, it seems plain to me, puts rather a crimp in the idea that the NT idea of a fiery place of torment of the wicked taught by Jesus did not exist in the OT.

Selah.

 

[Stony ground]

Isaiah 33:14
14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; Fearfulness has seized the hypocrites: "Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? Who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?"

Matthew 18:8
8 If your hand or foot causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life lame or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the everlasting fire.

So, if the OT Jews did not have a concept of Hell like the one Jesus described, why does Isaiah speak of the sinners of Zion being afraid of being cast into "everlasting fire"?

Isaiah 66:15-16
15 For behold, the Lord will come with fire And with His chariots, like a whirlwind, To render His anger with fury, And His rebuke with flames of fire. 16 For by fire and by His sword The Lord will judge all flesh; And the slain of the Lord shall be many.

Matthew 25:41
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:

Revelation 19:15
15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. (see also Rev. 20:11-15)

Isaiah says that God will judge "all flesh by fire and by His sword" and "rebuke with flames of fire," which we see echoed by Christ and explained very clearly in the apostle John's Revelation. The fiery punishment of Hell does not seem utterly unknown among the Jews of the OT.

Isaiah 66:24
24 "And they shall go forth and look Upon the corpses of the men Who have transgressed against Me. For their worm does not die, And their fire is not quenched. They shall be an abhorrence to all flesh."


Mark 9:43-48 (NKJV)
43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched--
44 where 'Their worm does not die, And the fire is not quenched.'
45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame, rather than having two feet, to be cast into hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched--
46 where 'Their worm does not die, And the fire is not quenched.'
47 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire--
48 where 'Their worm does not die, And the fire is not quenched.'

Jesus, speaking of the fiery judgment of Hell, quotes the OT prophet Isaiah, which, it seems plain to me, puts rather a crimp in the idea that the NT idea of a fiery place of torment of the wicked taught by Jesus did not exist in the OT.

Selah.

Excellent sourcing. Thanks!