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Objective morality, Evidence for God's existence

Discussion in 'Philosophy' started by Elioenai26, Dec 27, 2012.

  1. Archaeopteryx

    Archaeopteryx Wanderer

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    1. I have continually stressed the point that the discussion on whether morality is objective or subjective can proceed without talk about supernatural entities. I have even alluded to the discussion between Williams and McDowell on external and internal reasons for action. Your depiction of me as some sort of moral relativist who thinks that all opinions are equally justified is a strawman.

    2. You have demonstrated that you do not affirm premise (2). I will repeat what I said earlier: If you call genocide 'good' when your God commands it, and insist that it is 'evil' otherwise, then that is not an objective moral system. Instead it is system in which morality is defined by obedience to a divine despot.

    3. Yes, foul hypocrisy. Asking me to contemplate whether genocide is objectively wrong, right after you have told me that you would participate in a genocide, reeks of hypocrisy. Insisting that some despicable act is objectively wrong regardless of the specific circumstances surrounding that act, but then making excuses for why it is 'good' when commanded by a deity, reeks of hypocrisy.
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2013
  2. Archaeopteryx

    Archaeopteryx Wanderer

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    Given the way you've defined 'objective', (1) can easily be rejected.

    (2) can be discussed without talk of supernatural entities.
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2013
  3. Yes I'd like a moral of flour, please :D (Joking aside, you have a good point)

    I already raised the point of all possible Scripture references, and the OP said he simply wouldn't consider the Bible as a moral source. I bet you didn't see that coming any more than I did!
     
  4. You are entirely off base, due to not listening to what your debating opponent has said, and/or not asking valid questions, likely due to being content to assume. I have done the heavy lifting for you, and your train of thought here is entirely off-base.
     
  5. Archaeopteryx

    Archaeopteryx Wanderer

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    How is it off base?
     
  6. Read post # 923 for starters
     
  7. Archaeopteryx

    Archaeopteryx Wanderer

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    What about it?
     
  8. madaz

    madaz dyslexic agnostic insomniac

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    Elioenai, please can you offer us something else to help substantiate either premise?
     
  9. KCfromNC

    KCfromNC Regular Member

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    Hey, I'm not the Christian poster saying we have to reject the Bible in order to hold on to hope for an objective moral code from God. Don't blame me for pointing out the obvious problem in that "Christian" apologetic tactic.
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2013
  10. KCfromNC

    KCfromNC Regular Member

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    If unicorns are not purple then there's no Leprechaun's gold at the end of the rainbow.

    I'll assume you believe neither clause in this statement. Does that mean you must automatically accept that there's a causal relationship between the color of unicorns and the behavior of Leprechauns? No, of course not, you believe neither are true for reasons other than the premise I've just made up.

    Same answer to your claim here.
     
  11. Loudmouth

    Loudmouth Contributor

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    You would think so, wouldn't you? However, as soon as you saw that God ordered the murder of infants all of the sudden you thought it was moral if God commands it. So what we have is a moral code that shifts from one day to the next depending on the mood of God. What is immoral one day is moral the next. What you have with a God based morality code is a subjective morality, not an objective one.

    It is up to you to support your own premises, which you have yet to do. Premise 1 has never been supported by anything approaching a logical or reasoned argument.
     
  12. Loudmouth

    Loudmouth Contributor

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    The existence of objective morality only points to the ability of humans to use reason and logic to understand the interactions that occur between humans, and the emotions and pain that these interactions can produce. That's it. No need for a deity or the supernatural. In fact, a belief in a deity can clearly lead to immoral behavior.
     
  13. Elioenai26

    Elioenai26 Guest

    The above is dealing with various arguments against premise (1) and we will look at those in time.

    I wholeheartedly agree!

    In fact, many ancient near eastern cultures such as the Canaanites and Amalekites made it a regular practice to offer their newborn babies as sacrifices to the gods they worshipped. Molech was one who was worshipped by people placing their newborn babies alive on sacrificical altars and burning them to death while they were alive!

    Interestingly enough, it was this very practice that was one of the main reasons why God commanded the Israelites to overthrow these wicked cities and tear down their altars and destroy their idols. This was the immorality that was happening in these places at this time and it grieved God and made Him very sad and angry.
     
  14. Ken-1122

    Ken-1122 Newbie

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    Hey Elioneai26 would you mind responding to my post #879 on pg 88? I never did get a straight answer from you. In case you forgot the question was;
    'why do you assume God must exist in order for objective moral values and duties to exist?'

    K
     
  15. madaz

    madaz dyslexic agnostic insomniac

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    If I was the god as described above, I'd be very embarrassed to instruct my own creations to violently destroy my own creations, because I'm feeling angry, jealous or sad.

    Why didn't god just do the "dirty work" himself, let me guess...because objective morality exists?
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2013
  16. JGG

    JGG Well-Known Member

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    Much luck, I'm still looking for an answer on that kosher thing...
     
  17. JGG

    JGG Well-Known Member

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    So, genocide is objectively immoral...unless those people are the enemies of God? Then it's objectively moral?
     
  18. Eudaimonist

    Eudaimonist I believe in life before death!

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    Yes, and God is defined as the summum bonum, you see... And black is white, and war is peace, etc.


    eudaimonia,

    Mark
     
  19. Loudmouth

    Loudmouth Contributor

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    Now would be a good time.;)

    So using the God argument clearly leads to a subjective morality. It would seem to me that removing God from the morality argument is the best way to find an objective morality.
     
  20. I never thought that was a reasonable definition, on any level. (Our perceptions are far too subjective to know either way)
     
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