"Obamacare"

dogs4thewin

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OK, that is sorta how it is done now. And you are OK with that?

40,000 people die each year in America because they don't have health insurance. They may try to get others to help, but the bills are huge, and they cannot pay, so they go without the needed care, and they die.

They die. Are you OK with that?

Are you OK with forcing hospitals to provide emergency services to the uninsured? Then you are not opposed to all forcing.

Are you OK with forcing people to pay taxes to pay for military protection and police forces, even though they personally would rather not pay their taxes? Then you are not opposed to all forcing.

If it is OK to force hospitals to treat the uninsured, and OK to force people to pay taxes, why is it wrong to force people who could afford insurance but choose not to do so to pay a fee that makes up for the free services they can get at the emergency room?

If a person can afford to get insurance and doesn't, and then is in an accident and this forces the hospital to treat him even though he is uninsured, what would be wrong with forcing such people to pay an annual fee to cover this? If we don't do that, we are forcing hospitals to cover these people who want something for nothing. Are you OK with that?
If it is EMERGENCY care then OK, but just I have a cold or a twenty-hour virus do NOT take that to ER either take it to the urgent care places or deal with it. Why? because there are people who NEED the emergency room and they are not meant to treat "petty" conditions. Why should I be forced I mean if I understand the results of not doing so may be money problems down the road why so I be forced to be covered against that? Keep in mind that you CAN control how much tax you pay or even if you pay most of the time Property tax do not own any or not much land you pay less or none (directly) Income tax as bad as it is that some people give just for this some do not, but donating and also not making as much lowers that tax. Sales tax you can buy streak or you can buy hamburger meat, you can buy name brand clothes or used clothes/cheaper brands You can choose to buy CDs and other "fun" stuff or not. The simper you live the less sales tax you pay. Why because though it's based on a percentage of the purchase price but, 7%, in Georgia of say fifty dollars is lower than that on say $100 or 200 dollars, so all of that to say that in a sense people CAN control how much tax they pay towards various things, and do not forget voting, if enough people are against a certain (particularly local or state tax on the ballot they do not vote for it, or if it is not on the ballot they complain about it and do not vote back in the people who raised/created that particular tax. Why should I have to buy insurance (or pay a fine) if I do not want it? Even police I can choose to make use of those services or not (mostly any service besides the armed forces). If you rob me and I choose not to report it then there's nothing they can do. Same with the fire department media centers and yes even public schools, so even though they are forced to pay people can choose not to use those services. If I do not want insurance then why should I be forced to have it and/or use it? (for the I do not know how many times I have to say if someone can afford it or NOT) they may still refuse treatment. If I do not have the money for something I do not get it. People have that option/right even if you CAN afford it
 
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jayem

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Why should I have to buy insurance (or pay a fine) if I do not want it?

Why should I pay more for my insurance because some people won't buy their own?

Everyone needs insurance for catastrophic illness. Because no matter how young and healthy you are, you can still contract a serious disease or suffer a life-threatening injury. That's what most expensive to treat. And even if you work out a discounted payment plan with the hospital, part of your costs will be built into the fees charged to other paying patients. Cost shifting seems to be inherent in our current health care system. And unless you want to go down the road of government price controls, I know of no regulatory fix for it.
 
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cow451

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Profit means nothing. That just means they take more from the patients. Per capita, medicare crushes private insurance.

You have a good point. But, as another pointed out, Medicare was necessary because private insurers didn't want to cover "old people", or could not do it at rates many could afford on their limited incomes. There are "Medicare Advantage" alternatives, but those have very limited networks (in order to keep costs low). They are a good deal for people that are fairly healthy and can be effectively treated in a limited network. They can a bad deal for sick people that need several specialists.
 
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dogs4thewin

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Why should I pay more for my insurance because some people won't buy their own?

Everyone needs insurance for catastrophic illness. Because no matter how young and healthy you are, you can still contract a serious disease or suffer a life-threatening injury. That's what most expensive to treat. And even if you work out a discounted payment plan with the hospital, part of your costs will be built into the fees charged to other paying patients. Cost shifting seems to be inherent in our current health care system. And unless you want to go down the road of government price controls, I know of no regulatory fix for it.
or a person could just refuse treatment if they cannot afford it. If I understand full well that I may get really sick and not have the money to pay then why should it matter that you have to pay? because you can't pay for something that the person doesn't get.
 
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jayem

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or a person could just refuse treatment if they cannot afford it. If I understand full well that I may get really sick and not have the money to pay then why should it matter that you have to pay? because you can't pay for something that the person doesn't get.


Come on. If you're writhing in pain from a kidney stone, you won't go to the hospital? If you fall down a flight of stairs, fracture your femur, and a sharp bone edge lacerates your femoral artery, you'll refuse treatment? I'm skeptical. And even if you would do those impossible things, most everybody else will be screaming for EMS. And all of us who do buy coverage will be paying for their care if they're uninsured.

Your argument is like me saying that I don't plan to rely on Social Security when I retire. I'm investing for my own retirement income. Which is true. But I still have to pay FICA. I still have to pay my fair share into the system whether I use it or not.
 
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dogs4thewin

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Come on. If you're writhing in pain from a kidney stone, you won't go to the hospital? If you fall down a flight of stairs, fracture your femur, and a sharp bone edge lacerates your femoral artery, you'll refuse treatment? I'm skeptical. And even if you would do those impossible things, most everybody else will be screaming for EMS. And all of us who do buy coverage will be paying for their care if they're uninsured.

Your argument is like me saying that I don't plan to rely on Social Security when I retire. I'm investing for my own retirement income. Which is true. But I still have to pay FICA. I still have to pay my fair share into the system whether I use it or not.
There are indeed conditions for which I plan to seek NO treatment or nothing but pain medicine(if that). I didn't say that was an option most people would take I just said it was an option.
 
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grasping the after wind

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Come on. If you're writhing in pain from a kidney stone, you won't go to the hospital? If you fall down a flight of stairs, fracture your femur, and a sharp bone edge lacerates your femoral artery, you'll refuse treatment? I'm skeptical. And even if you would do those impossible things, most everybody else will be screaming for EMS. And all of us who do buy coverage will be paying for their care if they're uninsured.

Your argument is like me saying that I don't plan to rely on Social Security when I retire. I'm investing for my own retirement income. Which is true. But I still have to pay FICA. I still have to pay my fair share into the system whether I use it or not.

It would hardly be a "fair" share if you paid in and did not use it now would it?
You would have to pay in because you are legally bound to pay whether it is fair or not.
 
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jayem

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It would hardly be a "fair" share if you paid in and did not use it now would it?
You would have to pay in because you are legally bound to pay whether it is fair or not.

Yeah, "fair" probably wasn't quite accurate. I'm sure I will file for benefits when I'm eligible. I hope I'll receive enough investment income that I won't need SS, but the markets could crash and my 401K, IRA, etc. could tank. So I don't mind paying for it. It is kinda like health coverage in a way. I hope I don't have to use it, but I'll pay for it just in case. I understand that it is a choice to go without health insurance. Though it's a perilous and ill-considered one. And I can't imagine anyone with a family and kids not willing to buy health coverage.
 
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Lion Hearted Man

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There are indeed conditions for which I plan to seek NO treatment or nothing but pain medicine(if that). I didn't say that was an option most people would take I just said it was an option.

This is downright silly. Dying on principle from something easily correctable is insanity.
 
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doubtingmerle

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ALLorNOTHINGatall4CHRIST, you echoed back my questions, but I do not see your answers. Once more:

40,000 people die each year in America because they don't have health insurance. They may try to get others to help, but the bills are huge, and they cannot pay, so they go without the needed care, and they die.

They die. Are you OK with that?

Could you answer, please? Are you OK with that?

If it is EMERGENCY care then OK, but just I have a cold or a twenty-hour virus do NOT take that to ER either take it to the urgent care places or deal with it. Why? because there are people who NEED the emergency room and they are not meant to treat "petty" conditions.
we don't need to go to the emergency room (or the doctor) if we have the common cold.

But if we have bronchitis we may need medical care. And where should people go who cannot afford health care? Many choose to go to the emergency room. But if all are covered by insurance, then they could go to the doctor, and stay out of the emergency room for non-emergency conditions.
Why should I have to buy insurance (or pay a fine) if I do not want it?
Because you would be treated in the emergency room even if you had no insurance. And you would have the commitment that insurance companies would need to cover you any time you chose to apply, even if you wait until after you are terminally sick. You would be getting a good deal for the money you would pay for choosing to go uninsured.

Even police I can choose to make use of those services or not (mostly any service besides the armed forces). If you rob me and I choose not to report it then there's nothing they can do. Same with the fire department media centers and yes even public schools, so even though they are forced to pay people can choose not to use those services.
Oh please. If you are attacked by a mass murderer in a theatre, how exactly would the police find those who opted out of police coverage, and not protect them, while protecting everybody else?

And yes, you can opt out of needed medical care if you are conscious and refuse it.
 
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dogs4thewin

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This is downright silly. Dying on principle from something easily correctable is insanity.
no, there is a REASON I intend to refuse a liver transplant. There is a REASON I plan to refuse treatment for really advanced stage cancer and there is a REASON I do not want to remain on life support (if there was nothing they could do to get me off).
As for the police yes they would protect everybody, but if someone committed a crime against me say assault, stealing even rape and I PERSONALLY chose either not to tell them and/or not to press charges then they could do nothing about that particular situation.
 
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Lion Hearted Man

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no, there is a REASON I intend to refuse a liver transplant. There is a REASON I plan to refuse treatment for really advanced stage cancer and there is a REASON I do not want to remain on life support (if there was nothing they could do to get me off).
As for the police yes they would protect everybody, but if someone committed a crime against me say assault, stealing even rape and I PERSONALLY chose either not to tell them and/or not to press charges then they could do nothing about that particular situation.

I somehow doubt that in your 20 years you've accrued enough wisdom to make these calls. No offense, of course.
 
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TheQuietRiot

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or a person could just refuse treatment if they cannot afford it. If I understand full well that I may get really sick and not have the money to pay then why should it matter that you have to pay? because you can't pay for something that the person doesn't get.

Its not like somebody knocks on your door and says "We need a cheque from you that fella down the street broke his leg and you need to pay for it" It would come from taxes, which pay for your police and fire service among a great many other things.

I broke my femur due to being hit by a car while on a moped due to no fault of my own, he didn't see me. I was at college mon-friday at the time, only 17 and just working part time at McDonald at the weekends just to bring in a little money for myself (I lived with parents at the time, so only had to pay them a little board).

Refusing treatment would probably mean I'd never walk properly again. My guess is you've never been in that situation were you've desperately needed healthcare so its easy for you to say you could just refuse treatment.

Thankfully I live in England so I had surgery the next morning and was walking out of there in 4 days (albeit with crutches)

Thankyou NHS
 
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dogs4thewin

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Its not like somebody knocks on your door and says "We need a cheque from you that fella down the street broke his leg and you need to pay for it" It would come from taxes, which pay for your police and fire service among a great many other things.

I broke my femur due to being hit by a car while on a moped due to no fault of my own, he didn't see me. I was at college mon-friday at the time, only 17 and just working part time at McDonald at the weekends just to bring in a little money for myself (I lived with parents at the time, so only had to pay them a little board).

Refusing treatment would probably mean I'd never walk properly again. My guess is you've never been in that situation were you've desperately needed healthcare so its easy for you to say you could just refuse treatment.

Thankfully I live in England so I had surgery the next morning and was walking out of there in 4 days (albeit with crutches)

Thankyou NHS
But you could still do it even if you could never walk it could still be done, particularly if you had been a year older and therefore would NOT need your parents permission, by the way yes I DO happen to have a chronic health condition and am STILL against this bill. Even though I AM on two medications. One of which I will probably be on for LIFE. Which by the way lion hearted man is WHY I intend to refuse a liver transplant because I happen to know that medication can destroy the liver over time and I have ALREADY been on that medication for OVER four years now.
 
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TheQuietRiot

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But you could still do it even if you could never walk it could still be done, particularly if you had been a year older and therefore would NOT need your parents permission, by the way yes I DO happen to have a chronic health condition and am STILL against this bill. Even though I AM on two medications. One of which I will probably be on for LIFE. Which by the way lion hearted man is WHY I intend to refuse a liver transplant because I happen to know that medication can destroy the liver over time and I have ALREADY been on that medication for OVER four years now.

Why refuse a liver transplant?

Your young, you have your whole life ahead of you.

Do you think the fire service and police should also work by a policy of insurance that you have to take out to cover you from your house burning down or being mugged in the street?
 
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dogs4thewin

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Actually cities do have fire insurance. Each person pays an amount for fire protection and if you do not pay the fire department does NOT HAVE TO put out a fire on your house. Why refuse a liver transplant? If I KNOW I will still have to take DAILY medication for life to control my seizures and thus would just keep messing up the liver, particularly if the DONOR took medication why not give it to someone who may or may not be on medication as I have no control over their choice to accept or not. By the way you STILL have one of the same problems with the NHS. People who KNOW they are fatally ill with NO hope of getting better should NOT keep receiving treatment. I have noticed that the people forced to pay for it directly are less likely to do so. AKA the insured.
 
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cow451

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Why refuse a liver transplant?

Some people do "refuse" transplants, oddly enough. There are not enough organs available to meet the "demand". Sometimes people are unwilling to comply with the requirements (abstaining from illicit drugs or alcohol, attending therapy and education classes, etc.).

Don't tell Sarah Palin, but rationing of transplants has been the case since the beginning of the organ transplant capabilities.
 
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dogs4thewin

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Some people do "refuse" transplants, oddly enough. There are not enough organs available to meet the "demand". Sometimes people are unwilling to comply with the requirements (abstaining from illicit drugs or alcohol, attending therapy and education classes, etc.).

Don't tell Sarah Palin, but rationing of transplants has been the case since the beginning of the organ transplant capabilities.
In my case however it would NOT be an issue of refusing to comply with any requirements. It would simply be that I know that taking medication could ruin the new liver so why waste one.
 
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Lion Hearted Man

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But you could still do it even if you could never walk it could still be done, particularly if you had been a year older and therefore would NOT need your parents permission, by the way yes I DO happen to have a chronic health condition and am STILL against this bill. Even though I AM on two medications. One of which I will probably be on for LIFE. Which by the way lion hearted man is WHY I intend to refuse a liver transplant because I happen to know that medication can destroy the liver over time and I have ALREADY been on that medication for OVER four years now.

I have no idea what your medical history is, and apologies if I seemed harsh, because I still am not quite sure the rationale behind much of this discussion.
 
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