Obama support for gays (please read if you oppose homosexuality and marriage)

[Birthew]

Hi there,
I'd like to ask a question about homosexuality in america, and hopefully talk a little about it. I've recently seen Obama's statement about supporting homosexuality. I've also seen people like Santorum and Romney state their views on it.

My first question is (for people who agree with Santorum), although it is against your beliefs, why is accepting gay people's values and desires for marriage incompatible with your belief?

I know the bible says it is wrong (and i'm sure someone may quote something from it in response), but although its true and real to you, homosexual people experience life differently and see things and reality differently. Is it justifiable to force the teachings of the bible onto people who don't believe in it.

 

[1234321]

Hi there,
I'd like to ask a question about homosexuality in america, and hopefully talk a little about it. I've recently seen Obama's statement about supporting homosexuality. I've also seen people like Santorum and Romney state their views on it.

My first question is (for people who agree with Santorum), although it is against your beliefs, why is accepting gay people's values and desires for marriage incompatible with your belief?

I know the bible says it is wrong (and i'm sure someone may quote something from it in response), but although its true and real to you, homosexual people experience life differently and see things and reality differently. Is it justifiable to force the teachings of the bible onto people who don't believe in it.

I have homosexual attractions and heterosexual attractions. I suppose I would be called bisexual. I am also a believer in Christ. I do not believe homosexual activity is right for several moral and spiritual reasons.

First, I will answer the question(s) at hand. Accepting "gay" people's values and desires for marriage is imcompatible with my (Christian) belief because God specifically states that man and woman were created to be united through marriage (literally sex.) The sexual organs were created by Him to produce offspring and multiply the world. The sexual organs were not meant for pleasure solely, but it was made pleasurable so that procreation between a man and woman, husband and wife, would be enthusiastically longed for. It was a special physical bonus to be shared between a husband and wife that love each other. As an example, the digestive organs (namely, the stomach) was not meant solely for pleasure of eating, but it is pleasurable to eat so one would be enthused to nourish one's body. Indulging in sex just for pleasure is fornication, and in the case of homosexuality it is narcissistic idolatry (since you are having sex with the same design/sex as yourself.) In a similar way, eating just for the pleasure of it is gluttony.


Please do not mistake the government imposing legislation on moral issues with specific persons, or groups, [vehemently] expressing their views on said moral issues. Christians believe that homosexuals should not be married as per the Law of God. Unfortunately for Christians, we live in a secular society with secular laws. Therefore, issues like homosexuality have no moral consequence or negative connotation. So, the Christians are far from forcing teaching onto people; they are expressing their views - passionately - about the moral issue at hand. (We believe all things belong to God - even this world, and so we should follow His law. Otherwise, we will face consequences by His hand for disobeying Him.) As a Christian, it isn't our job to force anything. It should be said once (or a few times,) then left alone because we don't make people believe: the Holy Spirit does that.

I stated I have homosexual attractions (as well as heterosexual attractions.) No one forced me to believe that homosexual attraction is wrong; I made my own choice with no pressure on either side. The hackneyed argument is that homosexuals cannot reproduce, so by that basis alone they should not be together. I would go even further to say that a penis does not belong in a mouth (which is an organ for eating and drinking,) and it does not belong in an anus or colon (which is an organ for defecation and digestion of nutrients. Likewise, objects other than the penis do not belong in the vagina (a sexual/procreation organ,) and really, a mouth does not belong on a vagina either. Even if a man loves another man, or a woman loves another woman (which is perfectly fine,) the threshold of that love should not be crossed into romantic, sexual relationship. A romantic, sexual relationship is reserved for a man and woman, as a penis belongs in a vagina. Lips that passionately kiss the same sex's lips is a cross of that boundary. A same-sex kiss is fine if it shows compassion or platonic love.

In general, homosexuality is a lustful perversion. It is a misinterpretation of the special relationship our Creator meant for us to have with each other. Pleasure is a key factor in homosexual relationships (although I am aware that some people "truly" love each other.) I have male friends that I love very much, but I would cross the line of friendship into [romantic/sexual] relationship if I tried to kiss, touch, etc. my male friend in a sexual way. Everyone is capable of homosexual temptation and attraction, but acting upon them is a rebellion of the plan the Creator has for you as a creature.

Most all of the major civilizations fell shortly after excessive drug/alcohol use and sexual lasciviousness was morally marginalized. It destroyed the Phoenicians, Babylonians, Greeks, Romans, and it will destroy the Western world. And, these civilizations started out with strict moral ideals and laws just like the West. As the morals these civilizations were founded on waned, it allowed other nations to exploit weaknesses within the civilizations, and they fell to others.

 

[aiki]

My first question is (for people who agree with Santorum), although it is against your beliefs, why is accepting gay people's values and desires for marriage incompatible with your belief?

I don't, being Canadian, have any idea what Santorum's views on homosexuality are, but as a Christian I oppose it because it is an obvious perversion of a person's sexual function, because it is ultimately a choice people make, not a genetically mandated "orientation" over which they have no control, and, most of all, because God in His Word declares it an abomination.

I know the bible says it is wrong (and i'm sure someone may quote something from it in response), but although its true and real to you, homosexual people experience life differently and see things and reality differently. Is it justifiable to force the teachings of the bible onto people who don't believe in it.

Who has been forcing what on whom? It is has been the homosexual activists who have been shoving their aberrant behaviour down our throats for a while now. They have pushed their perversion on the culture through the popular media and by distorting the truth about why they are homosexual. They don't seek mere tolerance by the heterosexual majority in society but celebration of their warped orientation by them. They have worked to make any who oppose their view appear intolerant, weak, fearful and irrational. Of course, they don't acknowledge their own severe intolerance of views which oppose their sexual "orientation." Apparently, tolerance is only a one-way street for homosexuals. In any case, why shouldn't I stand up for what I think is right? I do no more than any homosexual activist in this.

Selah.

 

[Publius]

Hi there,
I'd like to ask a question about homosexuality in america, and hopefully talk a little about it. I've recently seen Obama's statement about supporting homosexuality. I've also seen people like Santorum and Romney state their views on it.

My first question is (for people who agree with Santorum), although it is against your beliefs, why is accepting gay people's values and desires for marriage incompatible with your belief?

I know the bible says it is wrong (and i'm sure someone may quote something from it in response), but although its true and real to you, homosexual people experience life differently and see things and reality differently. Is it justifiable to force the teachings of the bible onto people who don't believe in it.

Stating that the Bible says something is not "forcing the teachings of the Bible" on anyone.

 

[JRSut1000]

Because my first allegiance is to the ways of GOd, not the ways of our nation. Thankfully we live in a 'free' nation, so if I can make even a small difference and choose God's ways over 'secular' ways, I will do so. I wouldnt advocate other sins (like stealing or murder or pedophilia) and hence wouldnt vote for those to be legalized so hence homosexual behavior is also a sin and I dont want that legalized if possible either.

 

[GrayAngel]

Hi there,
I'd like to ask a question about homosexuality in america, and hopefully talk a little about it. I've recently seen Obama's statement about supporting homosexuality. I've also seen people like Santorum and Romney state their views on it.

My first question is (for people who agree with Santorum), although it is against your beliefs, why is accepting gay people's values and desires for marriage incompatible with your belief?

I know the bible says it is wrong (and i'm sure someone may quote something from it in response), but although its true and real to you, homosexual people experience life differently and see things and reality differently. Is it justifiable to force the teachings of the bible onto people who don't believe in it.

Homosexuals can do whatever they want, just like the rest of us. The problem is when they try to modify the institution of marriage to fit their same-sex relationships. Marriage is between a man and a woman. Gay marriage is an oxymoron. Call it what it is, which is cohabitation.

They already have the same rights. Can a same-sex couple open a joint account in a bank? Include one another as beneficiaries in their wills? Live in the same house? They got their rights. Marriage is not a right.

BTW, about Obama suddenly supporting homosexuals...who cares? Every Democrat holds the same view, why is it so revolutionary for Obama? All he's doing is fishing for votes, and it's sadly working. I don't care what Obama says. He's already lost my vote.

 

[Sketcher]

Whether it's Christian morals or non-Christian morals, marriage law is legislating morality. The real dispute is whose morality do we legislate, if we're not going to pretend that the state will be neutral.

 

[Birthew]

Heya.

So according to the Bible homosexuality is wrong and incompatible with marriage. I don't think comparing it to paedophilia is very fair, it would be like me comparing all Christian's similar to Harold Camping, or all pastors/priests as paedophiles.

The point is, because its your right and belief to believe in it, it means its your right and belief to voice it. But you can't justify it for being wrong when the other party (homosexuals) don't believe in it, quoting things from the bible just is not a good enough reason to stop people from other beliefs in life to adhere to what the Bible says.

Stating that the Bible says something is not "forcing the teachings of the Bible" on anyone.

Ok it may not be forcing the teachings onto people, but it is limiting a population. Just like it did with slavery and and Africans, but I hardly doubt anyone would lay claim to the bible now to try and reinstate slavery.

So apart from the people approaching life differently to you, why is it so hard to live alongside people who want to be able to have a marriage to show their dedication and love for each other?

 

[maryofoxford]

To start with, I have a brother who is actively homosexual, he has a partner who he considers his "spouse". I still love my brother very much, but as a devote Christian I'm very sad and concerned about him. He asked me if I thought God would want him to be unhappy by not allowing him to be with someone that he loved and that loved him, just because he was the same sex. He claims that God gave him the feeling of being attracted to that the same sex, so God must want him to fulfill himself by being sexual with the same sex.

This is the equivalent of myself (as a married woman) looking at another man, and if I find myself attracted to him, leaving my husband (or not leaving him even) and going to have sex with the other man! I could justify it by saying, "God gave me the feeling, therefore God MUST have wanted me to have sex with the other man that wasn't my husband!
The bottom line is, we often get feelings or desires that are natural and are NOT sent by God! If I want to eat a cheesecake all by myself, and do just that, does that make eating the entire cheesecake a good thing for me? Of course not! In the same way we don't just follow any desire we get, but are called to look at each one and analyze whether or not that is a good desire to follow and fulfill!
I applaud 1234321 for his honest and well written post! He said a lot, and all of it was exactly correct.

The simple reason that Homosexual Marriage should not be legalized has nothing to do with fairness, or forcing our beliefs on them. It has to do with the definition of the word "Marriage". It would be like having a law that says from now on a fish can live on land! You can say it, but it doesn't make it true! A fish simply cannot live on land, because a fish by it's very nature belongs in the water. Marriage, by it's very definition, is a Sacrament given by God to unite one man and one woman. The word is a Religious Word, it is not a secular word. God unites one man and one woman for the purpose of making a family. That's what marriage means, that's who gave the word, and that's what it will always mean, whether someone chooses to misuse the word or not! So the moment that two people of the same sex can naturally have a child together (we aren't talking by some strange means, but naturally), then, and only then, will I say they are truly married.

Homosexuals have every right in this country to live together and do any perverted actions they desire, just as long as it doesn't infringe on my rights. The problem with calling it a marriage and legalizing it, means that it WILL infringe on MY rights, through a number of ways. So I am deeply opposed to this. My homosexual brother can just find another word to justify what he calls a life. It just shouldn't infringe on my life, and be taught to my children as a "normal" way that people live.
I will continue to pray for him and others that live that lifestyle. May God help them if they die never having repented. This is what I am the most concerned about, because I deeply love my brother.

 

[Birthew]

Homosexuals have every right in this country to live together and do any perverted actions they desire, just as long as it doesn't infringe on my rights. The problem with calling it a marriage and legalizing it, means that it WILL infringe on MY rights.

Why do you feel it will infringe your rights? A gay marriage obviously wouldn't be a religious one, it would just be a socially constructed one that these people wish to have to show that the way they are is not just about sex, its about love and commitment as well.

The simple reason that Homosexual Marriage should not be legalized has nothing to do with fairness, or forcing our beliefs on them. It has to do with the definition of the word "Marriage". It would be like having a law that says from now on a fish can live on land! You can say it, but it doesn't make it true! A fish simply cannot live on land, because a fish by it's very nature belongs in the water.

Before slavery was abolished i'm sure people said similar things using the bible as support, replacing the word fish with black and water with chains.

Religion is meant to be a good thing, but it seems to divides society more than anything. Would it not be better to first identify on aspects of life that we can all agree on, objectively?

 

[Publius]

Heya.

So according to the Bible homosexuality is wrong and incompatible with marriage. I don't think comparing it to paedophilia is very fair, it would be like me comparing all Christian's similar to Harold Camping, or all pastors/priests as paedophiles.

Why? Do you believe there's something wrong with pedophilia?

The point is, because its your right and belief to believe in it, it means its your right and belief to voice it. But you can't justify it for being wrong when the other party (homosexuals) don't believe in it, quoting things from the bible just is not a good enough reason to stop people from other beliefs in life to adhere to what the Bible says.

But who's stopping people from "other beliefs"? How does our saying we believe the Bible stop anybody from doing anything at all?

Ok it may not be forcing the teachings onto people, but it is limiting a population.

How so? How does my believing the Bible "limit" anyone?

Just like it did with slavery and and Africans, but I hardly doubt anyone would lay claim to the bible now to try and reinstate slavery.

Are you sure you want to go down this road? Believe me, we have the "slavery" conversation here all the time and that's an argument you're just not going to win.

Not only does the Bible NOT support slavery (if you really believe calling for the death of slave traders is "support", then you and I have very different understandings of that word), it was the abolitionist movement that used the Bible, not the slave traders.

So apart from the people approaching life differently to you, why is it so hard to live alongside people who want to be able to have a marriage to show their dedication and love for each other?

Who says it's hard to live alongside them? I have friends who are homosexuals and I've stated here many times that one of my most influential mentors in college was a homosexual. If you really believe that disagreeing with somebody means you can't have a relationship with them, it must be a very lonely world you live in.

 

[SuziTiri]

funny how those saying what they hate then proceed to sometimes try to make others feel like lesser persons


just my observation

too bad love and compassion is on the decline in todays society and getting to know someone is considered too difficult to do


good rational discussion ( as you have above ) is what is needed more

 

[Birthew]

But who's stopping people from "other beliefs"? How does our saying we believe the Bible stop anybody from doing anything at all?

How so? How does my believing the Bible "limit" anyone?

Hey publius
Its because your belief in it is considered your right and that if homosexuals were allowed marry then perhaps you would consider this impeding on your rights. However for homosexuals, in their eyes, your beliefs are impeding on their rights, for what they want to do. What do you think the government should do to help homosexuals?

Are you sure you want to go down this road? Believe me, we have the "slavery" conversation here all the time and that's an argument you're just not going to win.

The last thing I want to do is have an argument. Lets face it, i'm on a Christian forum, I'm not going to win. I was just interested in talking to people about what they think about the matter and how it should be resolved. I'm sorry if I offended what you believe in by mentioning slavery.

Who says it's hard to live alongside them? I have friends who are homosexuals and I've stated here many times that one of my most influential mentors in college was a homosexual. If you really believe that disagreeing with somebody means you can't have a relationship with them, it must be a very lonely world you live in.

I kinda wrote what I said in the wrong way, I meant, like, accepting what they want and allowing them to go through with it, whilst at the same time recognising it doesn't infringe on your beliefs. (As they do not believe in god)


And about paedophilia, obviously it is wrong because somebody is being harmed and being forced to do something against their will.
I don't think its right to compare homosexuality with this because homosexuality involves two people, who share and agree on the same things, no one is being forced into it. Does the thought of two couples being intimate make you feel the same way about peadophilia? When I first heard about same sex sex, it did gross me out a bit, but I think its totally different too what paedophiles do.

And about the last point, I do have some Christian friends, who I get on with, but generally i'm not very good socially and am a bit lonely. (which sucks)

 

[FundiMentalist]

Thought I'd share this.

This video is the best, detailed, technical, warm-hearted exegesis of the six Biblical passages that are used to support an anti-gay marriage position as being Biblical.

It might surprise you and whether for or against, would suggest all parties dig deep through the passages which Matthew Vines exegetes and the translations of very specific words.

The Gay Debate: The Bible and Homosexuality - YouTube

Note that Vines does come from a Sola Scriptura point of view. If Church Tradition were included as having authority, it would be quite different.

It will take a while to watch, but if you're interested in understanding more deeply of one's own side or the other side, this is a great resource.

 

[Birthew]

Thought I'd share this.

This video is the best, detailed, technical, warm-hearted exegesis of the six Biblical passages that are used to support an anti-gay marriage position as being Biblical.

It might surprise you and whether for or against, would suggest all parties dig deep through the passages which Matthew Vines exegetes and the translations of very specific words.

Hey Fundi

Thanks for sharing this. Unfortunately I don't really have the time to watch it. My point is, while what the video says about marriage is how you perceive marriage, because God is real to you.

But people don't believe in God at all, so they don't view the bible as being creditable to stop them doing the things they want.

Marriage may well be a major part of Christianity, but marriage is in every human culture in society and every religion. Homosexuals just want to be able to have a ceremony to display their love and commitment to one another.

Of course you wouldn't stop a Muslim, or Jewish wedding for not being in accordance with the bible would you?

 

[Publius]

Hey publius
Its because your belief in it is considered your right and that if homosexuals were allowed marry then perhaps you would consider this impeding on your rights.

How would this impede on my rights?

However for homosexuals, in their eyes, your beliefs are impeding on their rights, for what they want to do.

OK. I'll ask you a third time: how does my disagreement with their behavior impede on their rights to behave that way?

What do you think the government should do to help homosexuals?

Same thing it ought to do to help heterosexuals: nothing.

The last thing I want to do is have an argument.

And yet, you still chose to bring it up, knowing that we would respond to it and correct you.

Lets face it, i'm on a Christian forum, I'm not going to win. I was just interested in talking to people about what they think about the matter and how it should be resolved. I'm sorry if I offended what you believe in by mentioning slavery.

It doesn't offend me at all. I just think it's sad that you don't know history or the Bible any better than that and I think it's childish when non-Christians come here and make outrageous claims about us and then refuse to back them up.

I kinda wrote what I said in the wrong way, I meant, like, accepting what they want and allowing them to go through with it, whilst at the same time recognising it doesn't infringe on your beliefs.

What Christian doesn't allow homosexuals to engage in homosexuality? What Christian believes homosexuality infringes on their beliefs?

And about paedophilia, obviously it is wrong because somebody is being harmed and being forced to do something against their will.

So then, you don't think pedophiles should commit pedophilia? Isn't that awfully judgemental of you?

I don't think its right to compare homosexuality with this because homosexuality involves two people, who share and agree on the same things, no one is being forced into it.

How do you know? And how do you know both parites don't consent in cases of pedophilia?

And even if it wasn't consentual, what gives you the right to judge pedophiles?

I'm talking about them being able to marry. If it doesn't impede on your tight to worship to follow the bible then why do you disagree with it?

Because God has said it's wrong and, as a child of His, I want my beliefs to be in line with His.

Its not your disagreement with their behaviour, its those who disagree with them marrying that is stopping them gaining the right to marry each other.

Nobody I know of disagrees with them marrying. What we object to is redefining marriage to suit them.

Apart from what it says in the bible, why would it be so bad for them to marry?

Why "apart from the Bible"? Why isn't the fact that God says so enough?

 

[Birthew]

How would this impede on my rights?

OK. I'll ask you a third time: how does my disagreement with their behavior impede on their rights to behave that way?

I'm talking about them being able to marry. If it doesn't impede on your tight to worship to follow the bible then why do you disagree with it?

Its not your disagreement with their behaviour, its those who disagree with them marrying that is stopping them gaining the right to marry each other.

Apart from what it says in the bible, why would it be so bad for them to marry?

 

[AlexBP]

Apart from what it says in the bible, why would it be so bad for them to marry?

In socieities that treat homosexual marriages as normal and otherwise normalize that behavior, there are consequences that result. Traditional Christian marriage exists for a reason. The number of males and females is roughly equal. Pair them up one-to-one and there's a partner for everyone. On the other hand, if you encourage people to turn to homosexuality, it's overwhelmingly the men who do so, and when the men start leaving the marriage pool there's a large number of women who can't get married. This causes the status of women to decline. Also, when marriages aren't centered around child-rearing, the status of children also declines. This article by anthropologist Peter Wood documents how societies with normalized homosexuality are known to see higher rates of violence, child abuse, and other bad things.

 

[hedrick]

In socieities that treat homosexual marriages as normal and otherwise normalize that behavior, there are consequences that result. Traditional Christian marriage exists for a reason. The number of males and females is roughly equal. Pair them up one-to-one and there's a partner for everyone. On the other hand, if you encourage people to turn to homosexuality, it's overwhelmingly the men who do so, and when the men start leaving the marriage pool there's a large number of women who can't get married. This causes the status of women to decline. Also, when marriages aren't centered around child-rearing, the status of children also declines. This article by anthropologist Peter Wood documents how societies with normalized homosexuality are known to see higher rates of violence, child abuse, and other bad things.

But his example is a modern equivalent of ancient cultures, where male mentors are sexually involved with many or most children. I'm not historian, but I'm prepared to believe explanations that when men are used to their primary sexual satisfaction coming from other men, their wives are going to suffer. That is, he's talking about the negative consequences being for the wives of people whose primary sexual commitment is homosexual.

But that's not what we're talking about. We're not talking about most people having homosexual experience. We're talking about a few percent whose primary sexual orientation is already homosexual. Indeed for them to marry women would actually produce the situation Wood is talking about: a man having a wife while his primary sexual commitment is homosexual.

I call this a straw man.

Your argument that homosexual marriage is going to leave lots of old maids needs to take into account an alternative. That is, you need compare it with now. You seem to be assuming that people who are in gay marriages would otherwise have positive heterosexual marriages. That needs evidence.

Also, the assumption that more men are going to be involved in gay marriage may not be true.

I don't claim to have done a rigorous literature search, but the first two articles I found giving data suggest that there were more women than men.
Gay Marriage Facts & Statistics - History of Gay Marriage
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/16/n...-same-sex-weddings-outside-new-york-city.html

Data on rates of homosexual attraction by gender are ambiguous. Some measures suggest more men and others more women. See e.g.
The prevalence of homosexual behavior and att... [Arch Sex Behav. 1995] - PubMed - NCBI

 

[Sir Wilshire]

My first question is (for people who agree with Santorum), although it is against your beliefs, why is accepting gay people's values and desires for marriage incompatible with your belief?

Christians are called to love their neighbor. When the Jesus speaks of love, he means doing what is objectively good (not feels good) for the group in question first, then the individual. Therefore, this obligates Christians to seek the common good of a country they are citizens of if they have the political means to do so. The state has a vested interest in marriage for the sake of the flourishing of children. A homosexual relationship, by its very nature, cannot produce children, nor can it provide the environment for their flourishing.

Is it justifiable to force the teachings of the bible onto people who don't believe in it.

Homosexual relationships aren't immoral because the Bible says so. The Bible says they are because they're already immoral. Furthermore, any law is legislating morality, so the question becomes which moral rules should be legislated for the common good?