Nothing ends in the Eternal realm.

[Stryder06]

Can you explain Jesus' story of the Rich Man and Lazarus in Luke 16:22-28?
The rich man also died and was buried. 23In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.' 25"But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.' 27"He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, 28for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'

It was a parable. Not that complicated. The point that Christ was making was that if His people won't believe the written word of God, than even if someone from the dead could come to help them, that wouldn't work either.

 

[JimfromOhio]

It was a parable. Not that complicated. The point that Christ was making was that if His people won't believe the written word of God, than even if someone from the dead could come to help them, that wouldn't work either.

Really? The most terrifying thing that Jesus ever said about hell was what He told the Jewish religious leaders in Matthew 23:33: "...how can ye escape the damnation of hell?"

The Bible also says that hell is a place of fire (Mt. 25:41). The fire in hell isn't like the fire we use to burn something. God uses the word fire to describe hell as a place of torment--a place where there will be no relief from suffering. Those who are condemned to hell will be raised and given new bodies for the sole purpose of being punished forever in those bodies (Jn. 5:25-29; Rev. 20:11-15). That's why Jesus said, "...fear not them who kill the body...but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell" (Mt. 10:28). Some people think that hell will only be experienced by the inner consciousness. But hell will be experienced by the body, too.

 

[Stryder06]

Really? The most terrifying thing that Jesus ever said about hell was what He told the Jewish religious leaders in Matthew 23:33: "...how can ye escape the damnation of hell?"

The Bible also says that hell is a place of fire (Mt. 25:41). The fire in hell isn't like the fire we use to burn something. God uses the word fire to describe hell as a place of torment--a place where there will be no relief from suffering.

Agreed. Hell is a horrible place with a fire from God that will be unlike anything we've heard of. Considering the fact that this fire will purify the earth, it will indeed be hotter and more horrible than anything we know of.

Those who are condemned to hell will be raised and given new bodies for the sole purpose of being punished forever in those bodies (Jn. 5:25-29; Rev. 20:11-15). That's why Jesus said, "...fear not them who kill the body...but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell" (Mt. 10:28). Some people think that hell will only be experienced by the inner consciousness. But hell will be experienced by the body, too.

I agree and disagree here. The wicked won't be given new bodies, they will rise in the same bodies they died in. They will experience hell until they are destroyed by it's fire. Just like you stated. The Lord will destroy them, body and soul, in hell fire. He doesn't say that they will stay there for all eternity.

The wicked will suffer for their own sins, having neglected the sacrifice of Christ, and than they shall be no more. This is what the bible says.

 

[JimfromOhio]

Agreed. Hell is a horrible place with a fire from God that will be unlike anything we've heard of. Considering the fact that this fire will purify the earth, it will indeed be hotter and more horrible than anything we know of.


I agree and disagree here. The wicked won't be given new bodies, they will rise in the same bodies they died in. They will experience hell until they are destroyed by it's fire. Just like you stated. The Lord will destroy them, body and soul, in hell fire. He doesn't say that they will stay there for all eternity.

The wicked will suffer for their own sins, having neglected the sacrifice of Christ, and than they shall be no more. This is what the bible says.

There's nothing in the Bible that states their souls will be destroyed by fire in hell. There's no way that the sinner can expiate his sin even in hell. That's why hell lasts forever. For those who love not the Lord Jesus Christ, according to 1st Corinthians 16:22, there is only cursing and an eternal hell. In Matthew 25 and Jesus says, these are the words of Jesus, the loving Savior, “Depart from Me, ye cursed into everlasting fire.” And on the other hand He said, “And these shall go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous unto life eternal.”

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Mar 3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:

2Cr 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen [are] temporal; but the things which are not seen [are] eternal.

Forgive me...

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Mat 8:12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Mat 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Mat 13:50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Mat 22:13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast [him] into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Mat 24:51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint [him] his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Mat 25:30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Luk 13:28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you [yourselves] thrust out.


Where does Christ describe an ending to this weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth?

Forgive me...

 

[Stryder06]

There's nothing in the Bible that states their souls will be destroyed by fire in hell. There's no way that the sinner can expiate his sin even in hell. That's why hell lasts forever. For those who love not the Lord Jesus Christ, according to 1st Corinthians 16:22, there is only cursing and an eternal hell. In Matthew 25 and Jesus says, these are the words of Jesus, the loving Savior, “Depart from Me, ye cursed into everlasting fire.” And on the other hand He said, “And these shall go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous unto life eternal.”

This is going off of the assumption that the soul is an eternal entity. This is unbiblical.

Secondly, the sinner is not making ammends for his sin in hell, rather they are suffering the punishment that is required. Remember that the penalty of sin is death. Not life in eternal suffering and agony.

Remember that Sodom and Gomorrah also suffered eternal fire. It is the results that are eternal. Their lives will be eternally blotted out. The fire will not end until there is nothing left to burn. The bible says that the wicked surrounded the city and than God called down fire from heaven upon them. The earth and all it's inhabitants will be burned up.

Remember the words being used here: Punishment, ashes, burned up. There is nothing in the bible that alludes to the sinner lasting forever, and remember that forever only lasts as long as it does. Forever ends, eternity doesn't. It's all about understanding the context of the subject at hand.

If the earth made new is to be the home of the redeemed, and the earth is to be burned by eternal fire, it goes to say that at some point in time, the earth has to stop burning so that God can begin His recreation.

 

[JimfromOhio]

This is going off of the assumption that the soul is an eternal entity. This is unbiblical.

Secondly, the sinner is not making ammends for his sin in hell, rather they are suffering the punishment that is required. Remember that the penalty of sin is death. Not life in eternal suffering and agony.

Remember that Sodom and Gomorrah also suffered eternal fire. It is the results that are eternal. Their lives will be eternally blotted out. The fire will not end until there is nothing left to burn. The bible says that the wicked surrounded the city and than God called down fire from heaven upon them. The earth and all it's inhabitants will be burned up.

Remember the words being used here: Punishment, ashes, burned up. There is nothing in the bible that alludes to the sinner lasting forever, and remember that forever only lasts as long as it does. Forever ends, eternity doesn't. It's all about understanding the context of the subject at hand.

If the earth made new is to be the home of the redeemed, and the earth is to be burned by eternal fire, it goes to say that at some point in time, the earth has to stop burning so that God can begin His recreation.

Looks like I will disagree with SDA doctrines along with Sabbath and others. So, we will agree to disagree.

 

[Stryder06]

Looks like I will disagree with SDA doctrines along with Sabbath and others. So, we will agree to disagree.

I can respect that.

 

[Stryder06]

Mat 8:12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Mat 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Mat 13:50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Mat 22:13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast [him] into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Mat 24:51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint [him] his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Mat 25:30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Luk 13:28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you [yourselves] thrust out.


Where does Christ describe an ending to this weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth?

Forgive me...

Remember the words being used here: Punishment, ashes, burned up. Death. That would seem to indicate an end to me. As already stated, this is based off of the false doctrine that the soul is immortal, which the scripture in no wise teaches.

 

[Fenstermacher]

Nothing ends in the Eternal realm.

That's what eternal means.

According to Eastern Christianity and the Orthodox Churches, Heaven and Hell are one and the same "place"...

That is to say that Heaven and Hell are our experience of standing in front of the one almighty God in judgement. We will endure eternally based on how we are recieved into eternity.

We will stand in front of that pilar of fire which is God being what we have made of ourselves. Time has no meaning there.

What is it that make some people believe that "eternal" can have a meaning that includes a final death for those who are in hell.

We should be afraid of Hell. For the very reason that it is eternal.

It's not vengence. It's our choice. Turn toward God and be saved. Turn away and experience Hell.

We must train our souls in this life to face God and worship like all the Christians do.

"O Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God. Have mercy on me a sinner."
"O Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God. Have mercy on me a sinner."
"O Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God. Have mercy on me a sinner."

Forgive me...

I have been considering lately that I have too little fear of God, too little fear of His judgment and justice, I am not as wicked as I could be, but I am complacent, wallowing in the same mediocre sins, becoming more and more numb to the threat of death.

I cling to the cross of Christ, but not tightly enough sometimes it seems to me.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

I have been considering lately that I have too little fear of God, too little fear of His judgment and justice, I am not as wicked as I could be, but I am complacent, wallowing in the same mediocre sins, becoming more and more numb to the threat of death.

I cling to the cross of Christ, but not tightly enough sometimes it seems to me.

God bless you Fenstermacher,

Psa 34:11 Come, ye children, hearken unto me: I will teach you the fear of the LORD.

Forgive me...

 

[E.C.]

Remember the words being used here: Punishment, ashes, burned up. Death. That would seem to indicate an end to me. As already stated, this is based off of the false doctrine that the soul is immortal, which the scripture in no wise teaches.

If the soul is not immortal, than Christ is not the Alpha and Omega. Which means that Nietzsche would be right when he said "God is dead."

I have been considering lately that I have too little fear of God, too little fear of His judgment and justice, I am not as wicked as I could be, but I am complacent, wallowing in the same mediocre sins, becoming more and more numb to the threat of death.

I cling to the cross of Christ, but not tightly enough sometimes it seems to me.

"It's not easy, being green..."

 

[Stryder06]

If the soul is not immortal, than Christ is not the Alpha and Omega. Which means that Nietzsche would be right when he said "God is dead."

How so?

I don't know who Nietzsche is or what he said. Christ did die, but He is alive again. You can't be alive when you're dead or you're not dead.

 

[JimfromOhio]

How so?

I don't know who Nietzsche is or what he said. Christ did die, but He is alive again. You can't be alive when you're dead or you're not dead.

Let's put this in another perspective. Man can live "morally" right but still a sinner and unable to acknowledge God. All of us are born spiritual ignorant (DEAD), not stupid. Through Adam, we are born spiritually dead. The nineteenth-century Scottish commentator John Eadie described it as a case of "death walking". Spiritually dead people are like zombies--they don't know they're dead and they're still going through the motions of living. Sin is where an unregenerate person runs away from God, meaning that a person called a "fugitive" that as a sinner, it is a person's inclination is to flee from God. Death is universal spiritually and also by nature. Physically we are born alive however spiritually dead. Spiritually dead still can feel, think, and etc. Those who are spiritually dead are non-Christians who are not saved.

 

[Stryder06]

Let's put this in another perspective. Man can live "morally" right but still a sinner and unable to acknowledge God. All of us are born spiritual ignorant (DEAD), not stupid. Through Adam, we are born spiritually dead. The nineteenth-century Scottish commentator John Eadie described it as a case of "death walking". Spiritually dead people are like zombies--they don't know they're dead and they're still going through the motions of living. Sin is where an unregenerate person runs away from God, meaning that a person called a "fugitive" that as a sinner, it is a person's inclination is to flee from God. Death is universal spiritually and also by nature. Physically we are born alive however spiritually dead. Spiritually dead still can feel, think, and etc. Those who are spiritually dead are non-Christians who are not saved.

Ok, I don't see a problem with this statement. Of course it is entirely figurative to explain the state of humanity seperate from God. We're talking about physical, actual, death here. And when you die you are dead. Life is opposite of death. Life in hell for eternity is still life.

I tried posing a differnt perspective on this myself but received no answer. If the world is to be cleansed by that fire, and sinners destroyed, with the saints inheriting it afterwards, how can it remain on fire?

 

[JimfromOhio]

Ok, I don't see a problem with this statement. Of course it is entirely figurative to explain the state of humanity seperate from God. We're talking about physical, actual, death here. And when you die you are dead. Life is opposite of death. Life in hell for eternity is still life.

I tried posing a differnt perspective on this myself but received no answer. If the world is to be cleansed by that fire, and sinners destroyed, with the saints inheriting it afterwards, how can it remain on fire?

It appears that SDA disagree with the rest of Christianity about life after death. Unbelievers experience spiritual death (separation from God) in this life and eternal death in the next, but they never cease to exist.

 

[Uphill Battle]

sticking with the OP...

I'm not sure I either follow, or agree.

it seems to me that Hell, and Heaven, are described as two seperate places. At least, that is how it appears to read to me.

"go away to eternal punishment" describes to me, that they are at point A, being judged, and sent to point B after being judged guilty.

or so it seems!

 

[MrPolo]

Remember the words being used here: Punishment, ashes, burned up. Death. That would seem to indicate an end to me. As already stated, this is based off of the false doctrine that the soul is immortal, which the scripture in no wise teaches.

Death in the spiritual context is eternal punishment, sometimes referred to as eternal destruction (2 Thes 1:9).

Jesus' story of the Sheep and Goats is pretty clear that there are only 2 paths, with the sheep to "eternal life" and the goats to "eternal punishment." No other options.

Matthew 25:31-46 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. "Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.' "Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?' "The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.' "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.' "They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?' "He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.' "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."​

 

[E.C.]

How so?

I don't know who Nietzsche is or what he said. Christ did die, but He is alive again. You can't be alive when you're dead or you're not dead.

Remember that whole "everlasting life" idea? The Resurrection in which Christ conquered death?

Ya know, this:

Is the whole Incarnation for nothing if the soul dissolves into nothing and simply disappears upon bodily death? Sounds a bit Atheistic to me with the whole "there is nothing" line of thinking. If the soul has no life after death, than truly there is no point of man's very existence, no point to God becoming Man, no point for Christ's being on this earth, no point for the Resurrection and certainly no point for us to rejoice and praise God.

If the soul disappears and dissolves into nothingness after the body dies, than that would imply that God is subject to time. How could that be; an Almighty, All-powerful, Omnipresent and Omniscient God be subject to such a thing as 'time'? The very notion is preposterous at best.

If the soul does not live on after the body dies, than that means there is no "Resurrection of the dead", there is no eternal life and that there is no God.