Non vernacular services in Orthodox countries

[All4Christ]

Do note that much Greek was imported where there was no term available for translation. Thus, concepts were maintained and passed on. And do consider that maintaining these languages is part of maintaining the culture of Orthodoxy - not the same as having an ethnic enclave. As the culture shifts, the language (Greek) shifts. As evidence of this, go for a wander into GT, where everyone uses "Biblical Greek" tools as support for very unOrthodox theology. (Or investigate academic studies of what sort of information is lost when language/culture is lost.) Try using some Orthodox theological terms and see how far you get; they are either understood differently (- ie justification, sanctification, etc. etc.) and Biblical concepts are completely absent. And do understand - the average USAmerican -- no matter how post-ethnic they think themselves to be -- is still strongly ethnic. We just don't tend to hear our own accents as accents. So do make things available for translation, be welcoming. I haven't visited an EO parish where this is ever NOT the case. And for those coming, do ask for help, guidance, direction. Have some humility and self-awareness. Expect to work a little. Even if the service is in your native language - you're still going to have to work at this (and having a familiar language makes this less apparent). Sts Cyril and Methodius didn't just do translating -- it took a great deal more than that. And glory to God, over time the Slavic and Greek cultures (and others) were converted to an Orthodox culture. So do understand that will take time, to convert English-American to an Orthodox-filled language/culture. And do recall the Aleut, in accepting Orthodoxy, became polyglots - knowing their own language, other tribal language/s, Russian, and Church Slavonic. It was after the purchase of Alaska that the US tried to enforce monoglot culture. English-only is a US 'ethnic-enclave' position. IE, requiring ease of comprehension on the terms of the convert is part of US ethnicism. (Stated by a convert, who had to learn and I am thankful for the opportunity to have to learn, and the loving patience of those willing to encourage and teach.)

It's wonderful that converts have learned and have been able to become Orthodox even when it is not in their language. I'm thankful I personally only had to learn the different culture of the Orthodox faith without having to learn a language on top of it though. As you said, it is a large transition no matter what.

Some terminology can't be translated properly, and should remain in the language that the church deems proper for them...in which case it becomes the universal Orthodox terminology. Theotokos, Economia, and a variety of other terms that we all use across Orthodoxy no matter what jurisdiction we are a part of. That is good...it is the way we universally understand these concepts.

But I never understood how maintaining the languages as the liturgical language is maintaining the culture of Orthodoxy. Could you explain how that is the case?

English only isn't the point people are making - we are saying language of the vernacular, whether you are in America, Russia, China, Finland...anywhere across the world. How is making the language be the language of the people representative of a US Ethnic-Enclave position?

I readily admit that America is in a unique situation in which Orthodoxy has been brought to America by other cultures, of which I am very grateful. Due to the "melting pot" scenario of American, we are a mixture of various differing cultures. When people immigrated to America, they brought their language and culture with them. The same thing happened when people brought Orthodoxy here.

Now before I'm accused of being judgmental of ethnic parishes - I am not trying to say that we should say - get rid of all Greek, Serbian, Arabic, etc. If a community is mainly Russian, then I see no problem with having liturgy mainly in Slavonic. However, still have some of the liturgy in the language of the country the parish resides in. Most EO parishes I know do this to some extent, for which I am grateful.

That said, if you aren't in an ethnic community, I don't think (ideally) that the liturgy should be held in another language other than the vernacular. Perhaps have some of the liturgy in the language of the jurisdiction - or once a month have a service in the other language - but the goal of Orthodoxy isn't to promote a language or a culture. In fact, we aren't supposed to embrace any culture here on earth...but to focus on the Church outside of any geographical or cultural realm.

This isn't just for convenience of potential converts...it also is to help focus Orthodoxy on Orthodoxy and not cultural elements outside our faith.

It is difficult to explain something like this without sounding like we want to make Orthodoxy about America...and not other cultures. Honestly I'm not trying to promote that. I'm suggesting that Orthodoxy shouldn't be promoting any culture over another. We should be promoting God's Heavenly Kingdom, and His kingdom is not about any particular ethnicity.

All this said, I am saying this as my opinion on a forum . I would never see it to be appropriate to demand that nothing should be any language other than the vernacular to an existing parish. I would encourage having the vernacular alongside it - but I wouldn't assume to tell them to follow my culture and not theirs.

No offense intended to anyone!

 

[tapi]

Well,

I know a lot of people from Europe (For example from Sweden and in Germany), who live in rather big cities with Slavic and Greek services being held – indeed quite often there are both Russian and Greek parishes doing services in their respective languages a single city – but where no services are at all held in the vernacular. I think this is a very sad situation.

It's one thing to try and preserve the old liturgical languages, but clearly there's a huge problem if all the services in a parish are being held in a language not spoken or understood at all by the vast majority of the local people.

I do not think that converts or people wanting to learn about Orthodoxy should be expected to learn Greek or Slavonic to understand the services, nor do I see either of these langues as somehow superior to other languages, so that they should be favored over the languages used by the majority of the people in any given country.

This sort of attitude completely undermines the evangelical ethos of the Orthodox Church and indeed DOES make those parishes national enclaves, where the people are unwilling to compromise their own customs and languages to make the faith accessible for all.

Orthodoxy should be equally accessible and understandable for everybody, not just for the people who happen to speak the same language or have origins in the same countries as us.

 

[Thekla]

It's wonderful that converts have learned and have been able to become Orthodox even when it is not in their language. I'm thankful I personally only had to learn the different culture of the Orthodox faith without having to learn a language on top of it though. As you said, it is a large transition no matter what.

Some terminology can't be translated properly, and should remain in the language that the church deems proper for them...in which case it becomes the universal Orthodox terminology. Theotokos, Economia, and a variety of other terms that we all use across Orthodoxy no matter what jurisdiction we are a part of. That is good...it is the way we universally understand these concepts.

But I never understood how maintaining the languages as the liturgical language is maintaining the culture of Orthodoxy. Could you explain how that is the case?

Christianity - in this case Orthodox Christianity - has over the centuries transformed the cultures where it took root such that the way things are approached and understood is now a part of the culture. A recent study has found that when language is lost, the information/understanding the language carries is also lost. And part of language is retained in culture - this is why just using a study tool for reading the NT in Greek gives a very different understanding than a culturally Greek reader would give.[/quote]

English only isn't the point people are making - we are saying language of the vernacular, whether you are in America, Russia, China, Finland...anywhere across the world. How is making the language be the language of the people representative of a US Ethnic-Enclave position?

And I also agree - the language should be in the language that is understood. However, the idea that what we come to must change to accommodate us (that includes me) is a cultural position. (It is distinct from the Aleut cultural position that received Orthodoxy and expanded the language base to include also Church Slavonic and Russian.)

I readily admit that America is in a unique situation in which Orthodoxy has been brought to America by other cultures, of which I am very grateful. Due to the "melting pot" scenario of American, we are a mixture of various differing cultures. When people immigrated to America, they brought their language and culture with them. The same thing happened when people brought Orthodoxy here.

Now before I'm accused of being judgmental of ethnic parishes - I am not trying to say that we should say - get rid of all Greek, Serbian, Arabic, etc. If a community is mainly Russian, then I see no problem with having liturgy mainly in Slavonic. However, still have some of the liturgy in the language of the country the parish resides in. Most EO parishes I know do this to some extent, for which I am grateful.

No, I don't think you're being judgmental

And I do sympathize with wanting the Liturgy in English - but also sympathize with having the Liturgy in whatever language is already maturely 'Orthodox" (whether it is Greek, Serbian, etc.)

That said, if you aren't in an ethnic community, I don't think (ideally) that the liturgy should be held in another language other than the vernacular. Perhaps have some of the liturgy in the language of the jurisdiction - or once a month have a service in the other language - but the goal of Orthodoxy isn't to promote a language or a culture. In fact, we aren't supposed to embrace any culture here on earth...but to focus on the Church outside of any geographical or cultural realm.

Of course, it is not about promoting an ethnicity per se; but, culture is how we express and learn value, self, faith, etc. And where the cultural values and language express the transformation of Christianizing, to discard these is a different matter.

This isn't just for convenience of potential converts...it also is to help focus Orthodoxy on Orthodoxy and not cultural elements outside our faith.

And really, language itself will not make the transformation - the language itself (as a part of culture) will need to be transformed over time. Until that time, translation itself will not make the matter, or the faith, clear.

It is difficult to explain something like this without sounding like we want to make Orthodoxy about America...and not other cultures. Honestly I'm not trying to promote that. I'm suggesting that Orthodoxy shouldn't be promoting any culture over another. We should be promoting God's Heavenly Kingdom, and His kingdom is not about any particular ethnicity.

I feel a bit of the same on the other side

But what I am trying to express is that maintaining an ethnic dimension is not about maintaining a culture (one over the other) as we in the modern US see it. Culture, ethnic, are not about promoting some artifact of genetics and history over another - when it comes to cultures that have been transformed, recreated over time by Orthodoxy it is about maintaining Orthodox Christianity. Christ said 'go to every ethnoi' - not nation (a more political sense, especially in modern US English). Culture is more precisely both a store of value and an expression of value - and where civilizations have been transformed by ancient (Orthodox) Christianity this is stored and expressed as culture (of which language is a part).

All this said, I am saying this as my opinion on a forum . I would never see it to be appropriate to demand that nothing should be any language other than the vernacular to an existing parish. I would encourage having the vernacular alongside it - but I wouldn't assume to tell them to follow my culture and not theirs.

We agree here, too.

And we also, as the converts coming in from a yet untransformed culture (vis a vis Orthodoxy and even to some extent Christianity) must sit a bit in humility at the feet of those cultures that have been so transformed over centuries. To run alongside for a time, until terms like "joyful sorrow" become as seamless as the understanding of charmolype is in Greek and Russian. When logos doesn't just mean "word", but "word" is given the terminological depth of "logos". Then - and in time - as our cultural transformation occurs, there really will be an apt translation.

No offense intended to anyone!

None taken - and I think I'm the one who sounds like a curmudgeon here

 

[Thekla]

Well,

I know a lot of people from Europe (For example from Sweden and in Germany), who live in rather big cities with Slavic and Greek services being held – indeed quite often there are both Russian and Greek parishes doing services in their respective languages a single city – but where no services are at all held in the vernacular. I think this is a very sad situation.

It's one thing to try and preserve the old liturgical languages, but clearly there's a huge problem if all the services in a parish are being held in a language not spoken or understood at all by the vast majority of the local people.

I do not think that converts or people wanting to learn about Orthodoxy should be expected to learn Greek or Slavonic to understand the services, nor do I see either of these langues as somehow superior to other languages, so that they should be favored over the languages used by the majority of the people in any given country.

This sort of attitude completely undermines the evangelical ethos of the Orthodox Church and indeed DOES make those parishes national enclaves, where the people are unwilling to compromise their own customs and languages to make the faith accessible for all.

Orthodoxy should be equally accessible and understandable for everybody, not just for the people who happen to speak the same language or have origins in the same countries as us.

I agree to some extent, and also disagree to some extent.

I disagree with your distress over "national enclaves" - noting that what you express is to maintain other "national enclaves" (like ours).

As before, we need both -- Greek is the language of the NT, and English translations are not quite the same understanding.

And English translation is great and needed - and can also leave us thinking we understand (when we don't).

Let our (yours and mine/US) culture be transformed by Orthodox Christianity (we will become a cultural minority - a subculture of the US that is unlike the greater US culture which is not transformed by Orthodox Christianity). That transformation will require great effort from us, and part of that effort will be from learning at the feet of those whose cultures have already been transformed. In this, we will 'see how it is done'.

 

[Thekla]

We - me, most converts here - hold within us a civilization and culture which rejoices in the planting of McDonalds worldwide, rip down old buildings to celebrate the new (because it's too costly to maintain the "old"), level ground to make the ground suitable for pre-fab buildings, attempted to eradicate how many Native languages and cultures (within and without our US borders, including trying to eradicate Orthodox Christianity) to impose our way. We invented governing work by Taylor's "time and motion studies" (first conducted in the town where I live) which equates value with speed (not depth and care - nor full participation, preferring an abbreviated form - attendance and a shallow form of accuracy), invented factory farming (hardly stewardship, seeing animals through God's eyes - as their logos - imo), etc ...

we need to watch ourselves for the artefacts of this culture in us.

http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20140606-why-we-must-save-dying-languages

http://www.pri.org/stories/2014-07-15/when-languages-die-ecosystems-often-die-them
(I include this article because faith, Orthodox Christianity, in transformed cultures is "ecosystem")

 

[All4Christ]

I can see that in some situations, but I don't think that is the case with people wanting it to be in the language of the vernacular.

The main way I can understand the perspective of keeping the language in the original would be having Greek and Arabic only, not Slavonic. The Slavonic is a perfect example of how Orthodoxy is designed to not override the language that is there with the current language, yet still keep the elements of the language that cannot be translated successfully.

It's not trying to 'impose our way' - it is trying to make the language of the liturgy - especially in areas that are not as confusing based on limitations of the language - to be understandable. The early disciples were given the ability to speak in all tongues in order to spread the gospel. The Orthodox Church did this as well (making Orthodoxy available in other languages). When others say, Slavonic, Greek or Arabic are the only ways to preserve the integrity of the Orthodox faith - I don't understand (although I am trying) how that can be consistently held, since one of the largest conversions of a country / region was done by the translation of Greek (when possible to retain the integrity of the faith) into Slavonic.

I readily admit, there is a severe problem when people feel like we have to abandon all the liturgical developments to make it modern or American or whatever the country currently is. In this case, I agree 100% with you. However, attempting to allow people to understand the language spoken in the church seems like a very small thing to request.

We Americans have a tendency to do tear things down (although I think that is not something that should be applied across the board), but many Orthodox converts are attempting to stay within the boundaries and integrity of the faith, purely by the drastic change of culture and faith, without the language added on top of that.

Just my 2 cents I'll write more after work - hopefully this isn't written in a way I don't intend, as I am extremely tired, and that's not always a good combination!

We - me, most converts here - hold within us a civilization and culture which rejoices in the planting of McDonalds worldwide, rip down old buildings to celebrate the new (because it's too costly to maintain the "old"), level ground to make the ground suitable for pre-fab buildings, attempted to eradicate how many Native languages and cultures (within and without our US borders, including trying to eradicate Orthodox Christianity) to impose our way. We invented governing work by Taylor's "time and motion studies" (first conducted in the town where I live) which equates value with speed (not depth and care - nor full participation, preferring an abbreviated form - attendance and a shallow form of accuracy), invented factory farming (hardly stewardship, seeing animals through God's eyes - as their logos - imo), etc ...

we need to watch ourselves for the artefacts of this culture in us.

BBC - Future - Languages: Why we must save dying tongues

When languages die, ecosystems often die with them | Public Radio International
(I include this article because faith, Orthodox Christianity, in transformed cultures is "ecosystem")

 

[Thekla]

I can see that in some situations, but I don't think that is the case with people wanting it to be in the language of the vernacular.

The main way I can understand the perspective of keeping the language in the original would be having Greek and Arabic only, not Slavonic. The Slavonic is a perfect example of how Orthodoxy is designed to not override the language that is there with the current language, yet still keep the elements of the language that cannot be translated successfully.

It's not trying to 'impose our way' - it is trying to make the language of the liturgy - especially in areas that are not as confusing based on limitations of the language - to be understandable. The early disciples were given the ability to speak in all tongues in order to spread the gospel. The Orthodox Church did this as well (making Orthodoxy available in other languages). When others say, Slavonic, Greek or Arabic are the only ways to preserve the integrity of the Orthodox faith - I don't understand (although I am trying) how that can be consistently held, since one of the largest conversions of a country / region was done by the translation of Greek (when possible to retain the integrity of the faith) into Slavonic.

I readily admit, there is a severe problem when people feel like we have to abandon all the liturgical developments to make it modern or American or whatever the country currently is. In this case, I agree 100% with you. However, attempting to allow people to understand the language spoken in the church seems like a very small thing to request.

We Americans have a tendency to do tear things down (although I think that is not something that should be applied across the board), but many Orthodox converts are attempting to stay within the boundaries and integrity of the faith, purely by the drastic change of culture and faith, without the language added on top of that.

Just my 2 cents I'll write more after work - hopefully this isn't written in a way I don't intend, as I am extremely tired, and that's not always a good combination!

I don't think anyone sets out to subsume Orthodoxy, to bend the Church to a personal paradigm. And of course language has always been important in evangelizing and retaining the newly illumined faithful.

But this again must be done carefully; again, language and culture are inextricably linked. This language/culture is what (see article above) holds and transmits "ecosystem". What of Orthodoxy do we risk in pushing our desire in immigrant communities where these links are centuries old, have undergone this evolutionary transformation and now are repositories of this treasure ?

Not just Greek and Arabic, but the Slavic languages (as the various Slavs experienced also this cultural transformation, and have a language heavily influenced by this, have a shared proto-Slavic language that is closest to Church Slavonic) and even Yupik ?

Would it be fair to join a Yupik or Aleut parish and then state - "really, this would be more useful to have in English" ?

To the extent that English (American English/es) already carries something of a Christian vocabulary influence, can we - those who have come from a Christianity radically unlike Orthodoxy - gauge the danger of how the paradigm shift might be affected by not being altogether clear of the profound difference in terminology as we understand it and as Orthodoxy has held the faith ?

I only appeal - as a convert - that we must be vigilant about, mindful of, the cultural paradigms embedded in us. And to be mindful of allowing and assisting in helping and allowing others - Orthodox for centuries - to carry the treasure still. Let the onus be on us, the newcomers, to look into ourselves, to sit in humility at the feet of others, to really learn to be Orthodox before we erect programs that would (according to us) "better" the Church that we have only just discovered, that has survived without us for now 20 centuries.

So yes, the language is an issue -- but from both sides. And having to learn the concepts in a language foreign to us (like the Yupik, who embraced also Slavonic as "their language"), we may be better able to really learn the faith.

As before, to sit at the feet of others, to have humility - these are core aspects of Orthodoxy.

And really also, Orthodoxy is not an 'intellectual' faith in the way we (over)readers tend to think.

I have learned a great deal about the faith from people with whom I cannot verbally communicate beyond "hello". I know the faith in great part from the yia yias - from watching, from the beautiful presence of God one senses from them, the way they move, carry themselves, etc.

And no-one needs a language, or a book, for that

 

[All4Christ]

I have a feeling we are going to need to agree on many things, yet agree to disagree on some others

There are portions of what you are saying that aren't what I have said - such as the pushing to change immigrant communities to only English - as I said earlier - if the surrounding community is mainly Slavic - and speaks Slavic languages - then perhaps a service mainly in Church Slavonic would be appropriate. One way or the other, it wouldn't be my place to tell a parish to drop the language that they are using...encourage to allow the use of interspersing some English (if they are in an English speaking country), possibly after being a part of the community...but not to overthrow the way the parish has always done it. That said - there is a difference in an immigrant community vs a church in a non-immigrant area.

You keep mentioning the Aleuts. One of the major parts of Orthodox evangelism to the Aleuts was a careful blending of Aleutians cultural elements withe the Orthodox faith. Bishop Innocent focused on blending indigenous Alaskan languages and cultures with Orthodox tradition.

Unfortunately, in an area as diverse as the mainland of America, this blending of culture is not very feasible. That said, the blending of cultures with the Aleuts - and making services available in the language of the vernacular today - could be considered the equivalent of how the Aleuts were able to understand the Orthodox faith.

This is what I would like for America: Follow the example of the Orthodox communities before us - and accept their help in transforming our culture. That is what many of the American saints have done. Many were from Russia or other countries - and they helped to form parishes that are American, yet authentically Orthodox. We shouldn't create Orthodoxy from our American culture (that would be a mess!), but there should be a goal of missions to help grow each community into that mature faith. However - that doesn't mean that liturgy has to be spoken in the language of the mature Orthodox communities - especially if it is a church planted in a non-Orthodox area! There needs to be some way to reach to the community and help them find the connection from what they know - to what Orthodoxy is.

I agree that we need to be humble and learn from those before us. I'm going to take my cue on evangelism from those who have been involved in evangelizing to America...and to those in evangelizing to Africa...in which they blended the African culture into the worship...and to the many beautiful evangelized communities - thanks to the Orthodox communities before us.

We need to be careful not to be prideful or arrogant - but alongside that, we will need those from the mature Orthodox communities to help mature every community's culture to a more mature Orthodox culture.

I am glad you have learned from those that you cannot understand except to say hi...we all can and should learn from that - but you can't learn theology purely from someone's pious example! And if you don't know what Orthodoxy is in the first place, then why would you take the time to do so?

We need both...not one or the other. They go hand in hand with evangelism.

I don't think anyone sets out to subsume Orthodoxy, to bend the Church to a personal paradigm. And of course language has always been important in evangelizing and retaining the newly illumined faithful. But this again must be done carefully; again, language and culture are inextricably linked. This language/culture is what (see article above) holds and transmits "ecosystem". What of Orthodoxy do we risk in pushing our desire in immigrant communities where these links are centuries old, have undergone this evolutionary transformation and now are repositories of this treasure ? Not just Greek and Arabic, but the Slavic languages (as the various Slavs experienced also this cultural transformation, and have a language heavily influenced by this, have a shared proto-Slavic language that is closest to Church Slavonic) and even Yupik ? Would it be fair to join a Yupik or Aleut parish and then state - "really, this would be more useful to have in English" ? To the extent that English (American English/es) already carries something of a Christian vocabulary influence, can we - those who have come from a Christianity radically unlike Orthodoxy - gauge the danger of how the paradigm shift might be affected by not being altogether clear of the profound difference in terminology as we understand it and as Orthodoxy has held the faith ? I only appeal - as a convert - that we must be vigilant about, mindful of, the cultural paradigms embedded in us. And to be mindful of allowing and assisting in helping and allowing others - Orthodox for centuries - to carry the treasure still. Let the onus be on us, the newcomers, to look into ourselves, to sit in humility at the feet of others, to really learn to be Orthodox before we erect programs that would (according to us) "better" the Church that we have only just discovered, that has survived without us for now 20 centuries. So yes, the language is an issue -- but from both sides. And having to learn the concepts in a language foreign to us (like the Yupik, who embraced also Slavonic as "their language"), we may be better able to really learn the faith. As before, to sit at the feet of others, to have humility - these are core aspects of Orthodoxy. And really also, Orthodoxy is not an 'intellectual' faith in the way we (over)readers tend to think. I have learned a great deal about the faith from people with whom I cannot verbally communicate beyond "hello". I know the faith in great part from the yia yias - from watching, from the beautiful presence of God one senses from them, the way they move, carry themselves, etc. And no-one needs a language, or a book, for that

 

[All4Christ]

My biggest desire for evangelism in Orthodoxy in America and other non-Orthodox cultures would be to avoid having multiple jurisdictions in any given geographical area...perhaps still have Greek, Serbian, OCA, Antiochian parishes - but only have one jurisdiction / hierarchy, not many! We can worship in many different languages or styles of chant - but we have one Orthodox faith. I strongly believe that would be a huge step in transforming the evangelized cultures into a more mature Orthodox community.

 

[gzt]

Some terminology can't be translated properly, and should remain in the language that the church deems proper for them...in which case it becomes the universal Orthodox terminology. Theotokos, Economia, and a variety of other terms that we all use across Orthodoxy no matter what jurisdiction we are a part of. That is good...it is the way we universally understand these concepts.

I find this amusing because English is, like, the only language that doesn't translate "Theotokos".

 

[All4Christ]

I find this amusing because English is, like, the only language that doesn't translate "Theotokos".

I'm not saying the majority at all - just that there may be some cases where it doesn't translate - Theotokos being the main example, as well as Pascha. If there is a case, the church as a whole will make that known. Believe me, I'm a strong proponent of having liturgy in the vernacular.

And I wasn't aware that it wasn't universal for Theotokos. What is the slavic version of Theotokos?

 

[All4Christ]

I'm not saying the majority at all - just that there may be some cases where it doesn't translate - Theotokos being the main example, as well as Pascha. If there is a case, the church as a whole will make that known. Believe me, I'm a strong proponent of having liturgy in the vernacular. And I wasn't aware that it wasn't universal for Theotokos. What is the slavic version of Theotokos?

Ok, I looked it up. I guess I assumed since the OCA is Slavic in origen that the Greek words we used were also used in the Slavic countries. Learning new things each day!

 

[All4Christ]

Duplicate post

 

[CJtheSearcher]

Wow this thread has become amazing! I wasn't expecting so many responses to this topic!

So from what I have gathered, in most predominately Orthodox countries the liturgy actually is celebrated in the vernacular? That seems to be the case so far, from what I've read.

 

[Anhelyna]

Over here - just as an interesting bit of information - the RO where I am are busy moving towards a 50/50 Russian / English Liturgy. I honestly can't remember how it was when I was last down in London when I went to both ROCOR and RO-MP

 

[dzheremi]

And I wasn't aware that it wasn't universal for Theotokos. What is the slavic version of Theotokos?

Богородице (Bogoroditse), right?

I know it's slightly outside of the bounds of the OP, but just for comparative purposes, Coptic doesn't generally translate "Thetokos" either. In Coptic it would be "masnouti", but it's more common to hear other formulations, like "ethmav emefnouti" (lit. 'the mother of the God' -- Coptic loves articles).

 

[Anhelyna]

Богородице (Bogoroditse), right?

.

Yup - that's it though Ukrainians will use an 'h' rather than a 'g'

And yet - I normally say Theotokos - and when I prepping the changeable parts i always look for a Theotokion

 

[All4Christ]

Yup - that's it though Ukrainians will use an 'h' rather than a 'g' And yet - I normally say Theotokos - and when I prepping the changeable parts i always look for a Theotokion

I think that's why I was mixing it up - even our Slavic arrangements use Theotokion as the topic name on the top of the music!

 

[Anhelyna]

Let's face it - certain terms are interchangeable and we just use whatever comes to mind We all know to what / Who / who we are referring .

Like I always refer to my Eparch as Kyr .... and address him as Master The term Vladyka - I don't use it - I follow my GodPapa's usage

 

[Trying_to_be_Orthodox]

@CJtheSearcher

In short: if native language is Russian and live in Russia or Belarussia or Ukraine - so there is only one problem to understand service in Church - wish. If you wish so will find way to understand. Old slavonic and modern Russian are not 2 different languages - one comes from another.
Just by the way, service is on Modern Russian almost in my parish.