Non vernacular services in Orthodox countries

[CJtheSearcher]

In Romania the vernacular is used in the Liturgy. The language of every day speech is the language of the Liturgy.

Really? I didn't know this! I thought all predominately Orthodox countries worshiped in the liturgical language of their particular church (Koine Greek for the church in Greece, church Slavonic for all the 'Slavic' churches, etc).

And everyone, can we please keep this thread on topic? This isn't about citizenship of countries or whatever. I was asking about the language of the liturgy in predominately Orthodox countries.

 

[dzheremi]

I thought it was a basic Orthodox principle that the language of the liturgy is to be the language of the people, and that the exceptions to this are the result of the language evolving faster than the liturgy does? (Or in some cases being completely replaced, e.g., among the Copts.) I don't think it is ever by design that people worship in dead languages, only that some churches keep the earlier versions of their modern languages out of a feeling that these are proper languages for "high" activities like religious worship (this is backed up in the linguistic literature on language use, e.g., Ferguson 1959 on Diglossia, or his later work on the effect of national Arabic dialects on the Qur'anic Arabic of the Muslim community).

Is this not true of the EO? I can understand Russian, less so Slavonic, but generally do not have a problem understanding most Russian Orthodox hymns I hear. These are at least related languages (the only church that does not have such luck in the entire world is the Coptic Orthodox Church, as Coptic is not a Semitic language, and I suppose the Malankara Orthodox, since they mostly speak Malayalam, a Dravidian language, and not Syriac, which is another Semitic language; they, like the Copts, don't often have services entirely in the liturgical language, though, except perhaps for special occasions).

 

[CJtheSearcher]

I thought it was a basic Orthodox principle that the language of the liturgy is to be the language of the people, and that the exceptions to this are the result of the language evolving faster than the liturgy does? (Or in some cases being completely replaced, e.g., among the Copts.) I don't think it is ever by design that people worship in dead languages, only that some churches keep the earlier versions of their modern languages out of a feeling that these are proper languages for "high" activities like religious worship (this is backed up in the linguistic literature on language use, e.g., Ferguson 1959 on Diglossia, or his later work on the effect of national Arabic dialects on the Qur'anic Arabic of the Muslim community).

Is this not true of the EO? I can understand Russian, less so Slavonic, but generally do not have a problem understanding most Russian Orthodox hymns I hear. These are at least related languages (the only church that does not have such luck in the entire world is the Coptic Orthodox Church, as Coptic is not a Semitic language, and I suppose the Malankara Orthodox, since they mostly speak Malayalam, a Dravidian language, and not Syriac, which is another Semitic language; they, like the Copts, don't often have services entirely in the liturgical language, though, except perhaps for special occasions).

I'm actually not EXACTLY sure if the liturgy in predominately Orthodox countries is in the vernacular or the traditional 'liturgical language'. That's why I made this thread, in the hopes of getting responses from Orthodox currently residing in Orthodox countries!

And since it is Sunday morning here in China.....CHRIST IS RISEN! INDEED HE IS RISEN!

 

[All4Christ]

Really? I didn't know this! I thought all predominately Orthodox countries worshiped in the liturgical language of their particular church (Koine Greek for the church in Greece, church Slavonic for all the 'Slavic' churches, etc). And everyone, can we please keep this thread on topic? This isn't about citizenship of countries or whatever. I was asking about the language of the liturgy in predominately Orthodox countries.

Apologies - back on topic!

 

[ma2000]

Really? I didn't know this! I thought all predominately Orthodox countries worshiped in the liturgical language of their particular church (Koine Greek for the church in Greece, church Slavonic for all the 'Slavic' churches, etc).

And everyone, can we please keep this thread on topic? This isn't about citizenship of countries or whatever. I was asking about the language of the liturgy in predominately Orthodox countries.

Yes, we used to use Slavonic until 18th century, but they started translating the texts since 16th century. Some of the words are borrowed from Slavonic.

I remember there was a monk who knocked on our door when I went to Vatopaidi. We opened the door and he said something in Greek. We didn't understand any of it. And then he said something in Russian. And we didn't understand any of it. And then he said: "Slujba!" (Cлужба! Slooj-bah) Then we understood. He was reminding us to go to the church service

 

[SeventhValley]

Sorry for the outburst/thread jack yesterday. Was in a bad mood and got on my soap box.

I have a relative moving to a Scandinavian country. It is upsetting for various reasons.

 

[CJtheSearcher]

Yes, we used to use Slavonic until 18th century, but they started translating the texts since 16th century. Some of the words are borrowed from Slavonic.

I remember there was a monk who knocked on our door when I went to Vatopaidi. We opened the door and he said something in Greek. We didn't understand any of it. And then he said something in Russian. And we didn't understand any of it. And then he said: "Slujba!" (Cлужба! Slooj-bah) Then we understood. He was reminding us to go to the church service

HAha so in this case, the Slavonic actually served as a language BRIDGE for you guys, huh? Cool to hear!

And...CHRIST IS RISEN!

 

[tapi]

Thank God we use Finnish here.

Over the last couple decades, we have had quite a few people, myself included, convert from Lutheranism.

Since Orthodoxy itself is quite different from protestantism, the bar for joining the Orthodox Church or even getting to know the Church would be way higher if people didn't understand anything read or sung in the services.

My personal opinion is that there should always be some services held in the vernacul.

 

[ma2000]

HAha so in this case, the Slavonic actually served as a language BRIDGE for you guys, huh? Cool to hear!

And...CHRIST IS RISEN!

HE IS TRULY RISEN!

 

[All4Christ]

HAha so in this case, the Slavonic actually served as a language BRIDGE for you guys, huh? Cool to hear! And...CHRIST IS RISEN!

Indeed he is risen! I love the universal languages sung with the paschal greetings at the end of the service...Christ is risen - across the world! No matter what language, the truth of Pascha is universal

 

[Dewi Sant]

Yes, I had a beautiful vision of the entrance of the Paschal flame moving around the globe as a counter-sunset.


As regards language.
Yes the Greeks use an antiquated 'Aristotelian' [Attic] form of the language for their liturgical worship (though the scriptures are in later Koine).

It is a relief that the Orthodox of England do not take the same approach and use Old English as the liturgical language.
Crist aras! [Christ Arose]
Crist soþlice aras! [Christ surely arose]

In my parish at Uni, Welsh is the liturgical language alongside English. Because Welsh was dormant for many centuries it has preserved a certain purity of linguistic form. Aside from using the Latin rather than Runic alphabet, it is nice to think that one is using the same words as those of Ss. David of Wales, Patrick Enlightener of Ireland, Teilo, Deiniol, Silian, Non....nice thing about Wales is how they preserved their native saints rather than having them deposed of by the cultural revolution of the Normans.


Atgyfododd Crist!

 

[CJtheSearcher]

Thank God we use Finnish here.

Over the last couple decades, we have had quite a few people, myself included, convert from Lutheranism.

Since Orthodoxy itself is quite different from protestantism, the bar for joining the Orthodox Church or even getting to know the Church would be way higher if people didn't understand anything read or sung in the services.

My personal opinion is that there should always be some services held in the vernacul.

I completely agree with you. I'm from the southern US (South Carolina to be exact) and we are predominately Protestant, with a smattering of Catholics thrown into the mix. Orthodoxy, even with English services, is still bewildering to your average American who goes to liturgy for the first time (I speak from experience!). So, if Orthodox churches here ONLY held services in liturgical languages and there wasn't any English....you wouldn't have hardly any converts at all.

 

[Nik0s]

It is a problem here in the states that English isn't used for liturgy in many orthodox churches. For the Greeks, even native speakers have trouble understanding the liturgy in koine, not to mention Greek Americans born here! And converts? FAGHETTABOUDIT! I can only wonder how many converts have been put off hearing the psalti chant in Greek for an hour during Orthos with no English at all. We're not in Byzantium and it isn't AD 400 anymore, the language has changed! /rant over

I love listening to the liturgy in Greek, because I understand it, but it puts such a barrier between the "xenoi" and us, not to mention the barrier it creates with cradle Orthodox who don't go to Greek school or brush up on koine. Gardening with yiayia can only teach you so much Greek!

 

[buzuxi02]

Niko,
I dont think so that archaic greek converted the slavs in 988 AD, and they didnt know a word. Look at the Ressurection service, when the Christ is Risen hymn is sung people sing along in greek, when its recited in english you can hear a pin drop even though though most were born here in the States.

 

[Nik0s]

Niko,
I dont think so that archaic greek converted the slavs in 988 AD, and they didnt know a word. Look at the Ressurection service, when the Christ is Risen hymn is sung people sing along in greek, when its recited in english you can hear a pin drop even though though most were born here in the States.

St. Cyril and Methodios also translated everything to Slavonic so they could understand. And I'm not pushing to remove Greek completely, like you said everyone knows "Christos Anesti!" but how many know all the horologion hymns for example?

 

[Anhelyna]

This is not a problem just for Orthodoxy - it happens in other groups.

My home Community is very very Ukrainian - the first came over years ago - the surviving members of the original Group are over 90 !

It was men who came and once they were allowed to, they worked on the land and some eventually married local girls - and taught their wives a limited amount of Ukrainian. Children came along - and were taught a little Ukrainian , but were not taught to read it According to my GodPapa they learned 'kitchen Ukrainian'

Result - the children moved away as they grew up and became young people [ as indeed young people tend to do ]

We now have a generation of 90 yr olds who are literally dying [ there are about 6 left who still come to Church every week ] Very few of their wives speak Ukrainian . Their offspring who do attend can only cope with transliterated Ukrainian but have learned the Liturgy by parroting it [ i.e. imitating the sounds ]

This generation now have given birth to another younger group - who again are , on the whole , not being taught the language.

I'll give an example - 2 years ago a boy of about 12 was helping me put out the candles on the candle stands after Liturgy. and since we were alone I asked him how much of the Liturgy he could understand [ I'd seen him fidgeting all through ] - he looked round to see no-one could hear us - and muttered " not a lot " I said " anything ?" and he shook his head looking ashamed. I gently asked if he would like a copy of Liturgy in both languages so he could follow the prayers as we were chanting them.

His eyes lit up then he said " I'll need to ask my mum " I had a quiet word with Mum and she was happy - she's young , Ukrainian with a not very good command of English , comes to Church maybe once every 2 months. I printed out the bilingual copy that I use - side by side on the same page - much easier to follow that way.

When I brought it into Church the following week in case he was there , I told our priest at the time [ resident in the Country for 18 years but with English like my spoken Ukrainian - virtually nil ] his comment was that the boy's Mother wants him to learn it in Ukrainian - so my slightly sharp comment was - " She can teach him the words in Ukrainian but can she really explain the meaning ? "

I really think we have to be realistic about the use of language. I can manage Liturgy in Ukrainian for 90%of the time - because of my struggles I always say the Creed quietly in English which it's being chanted in Ukrainian - and the same with the Pre-Communion Prayer .

We have a fledgling Mission now that we have served the 5 times - numbers are poor despite our efforts - maybe 2 or three coming ! The Students aren't interested - nor are the young professionals there either. We know of 14 young professionals - but one has come twice - the others not at all Father is young and enthusiastic , but let down by folk who talk a lot, demand a lot and won't do.

During a Feast Day Liturgy during the week in my home Parish - I'll travel there if possible , and it's probably just Father and me present - so we Serve in English - it's good for his English though I do have to prompt him at times

It's a real problem - I see that our parish needs to go English usage - everyone there speaks English in their day-to-day life.

Now where I am today [ I go home tomorrow ] it's a parish of young Ukrainians - lots of children who grow up speaking and understanding Ukrainian - and English - and sometimes Russian at home - and also learn Gaelic at School. There is also a Ukrainian Saturday School for them not far away as well. I've no problems with them Serving solely in Ukrainian - and actually they do use some English !

 

[All4Christ]

Im fairly good at picking up languages - but when I am singing songs outside of English in the choir, I don't pick up the meaning of the words...I only know the meaning of sporadic words with the entire context based on the English equivalent. I'm sure I could make myself learn another language if needed, but for others who only hear it in church - I can definitely see how it would be very difficult to understand.

A lot of people know bits and pieces - but how many truly master the language and phrases of the liturgy?

My husband's family is Carpatho-Rusyn. His grandfather (Memory Eternal!) was a priest of an immigrant Slavic community. The liturgy was served mainly in Church Slavonic, as most parishioners were from Slavic countries, but he made sure to have a sermon in English, as well as some of the prayers. He even provided an English sermon book for immigrant priests that did not speak English well.

My husband can understand the services in Church Slavonic, but mainly can do so because he knows the order of the service and grew up with his parents showing him the English that went along with each part of the service. His parents eventually moved to an OCA church so that he and his sister could experience the liturgy in English.

They still visited his grandfather's church, but it was important to them to have their kids understand what was going on. Granted - they didn't have language schools for the kids to learn Church Slavonic...so it wasn't an easy thing for them to just pick up in church.

The community should definitely contribute to what language is spoken, but I do think the language of the vernacular should be used to some extent, no matter what community. Generations in the future likely will use the language of their country they reside in for day to day communication. I believe the language in the church should at least be recognizable in some form or fashion without someone learning an entirely different language. A parish could at least have some verses of the hymns in English, so people can hear the context.

 

[Thekla]

every (Greek) parish I have attended uses a mix of languages, and when possible has a Greek dominant service and an English dominant service. At the present parish, fr. makes translation copies available for orthros etc., and translates his homily. I have also noticed the balance of languages changes (weekday services) as people show up - ex. more English when more English speakers show up.

Ie, the parishes I know do make adjustments. It is also up to us English speakers to do our part (translations are available online, in books, etc.).

And as before, in our non-Georgian speaking Church, NO-ONE complained when a visiting priest (a remarkable, spiritual priest) gave the entire liturgy in Georgian.

 

[tapi]

I think it's a little different for active parish people, who probably know the liturgy very well. In an active parish, if the liturgy is held, say, one or two times per year, or once in a few months, in a foreign language, it's not a biggie, since of course they know the course of the liturgy very well and can spot what's going on.

Now, if there are people with little or even no knowledge at all of orthodox services attending, it's extremely hard for them to grasp much of the service, if it is held in foreign language.

Sure, we can keep our parishes as national enclaves that will only serve the people who can speak the original "national" language of the parish, but this does not reflect the universal mind of the Church, and certainly does not reflect the historical practices of the Church, which have always emphasized the importance of holding the services in a language understandable to the people, as evidenced by the huge effort made by St's Cyril and Methodios to translate the Greek services unto Slavic, instead of insisting that the Slavs simply try to understand the faith by the veracity of the services without actually comprehending what was read and sung.

 

[Thekla]

I think it's a little different for active parish people, who probably know the liturgy very well. In an active parish, if the liturgy is held, say, one or two times per in a foreign language, it's not a biggie, since of course they know the course of the liturgy very well and can spot what's going on.

Now, if there are people with little or even no knowledge at all of orthodox services attending, it's extremely hard for them to grasp much of the service, if it is held in foreign language.

Sure, we can keep our parishes as national enclaves that will serve the people who can speak the given language of the parish, but it does not reflect the universal mind of the Church, and certainly does not reflect the historical practice of the Church, which has always emphasized the importance of holding the services in a language understandable to the people, as evidenced by the effort made by St's Cyril and Methodios.

Do note that much Greek was imported where there was no term available for translation. Thus, concepts were maintained and passed on.

And do consider that maintaining these languages is part of maintaining the culture of Orthodoxy - not the same as having an ethnic enclave.

As the culture shifts, the language (Greek) shifts. As evidence of this, go for a wander into GT, where everyone uses "Biblical Greek" tools as support for very unOrthodox theology. (Or investigate academic studies of what sort of information is lost when language/culture is lost.) Try using some Orthodox theological terms and see how far you get; they are either understood differently (- ie justification, sanctification, etc. etc.) and Biblical concepts are completely absent.

And do understand - the average USAmerican -- no matter how post-ethnic they think themselves to be -- is still strongly ethnic. We just don't tend to hear our own accents as accents.

So do make things available for translation, be welcoming. I haven't visited an EO parish where this is ever NOT the case. And for those coming, do ask for help, guidance, direction. Have some humility and self-awareness. Expect to work a little. Even if the service is in your native language - you're still going to have to work at this (and having a familiar language makes this less apparent). Sts Cyril and Methodius didn't just do translating -- it took a great deal more than that.

And glory to God, over time the Slavic and Greek cultures (and others) were converted to an Orthodox culture. So do understand that will take time, to convert English-American to an Orthodox-filled language/culture.

And do recall the Aleut, in accepting Orthodoxy, became polyglots - knowing their own language, other tribal language/s, Russian, and Church Slavonic. It was after the purchase of Alaska that the US tried to enforce monoglot culture. English-only is a US 'ethnic-enclave' position. IE, requiring ease of comprehension on the terms of the convert is part of US ethnicism.

(Stated by a convert, who had to learn and I am thankful for the opportunity to have to learn, and the loving patience of those willing to encourage and teach.)