Noah's nakedness

[Bluelion]

So i am trying to figure this out maybe i could get some input see if we can't figure it out.
Gen 9 NLT
20 After the flood, Noah began to cultivate the ground, and he planted a vineyard. 21 One day he drank some wine he had made, and he became drunk and lay naked inside his tent. 22 Ham, the father of Canaan, saw that his father was naked and went outside and told his brothers. 23 Then Shem and Japheth took a robe, held it over their shoulders, and backed into the tent to cover their father. As they did this, they looked the other way so they would not see him naked.

24 When Noah woke up from his stupor, he learned what Ham, his youngest son, had done. 25 Then he cursed Canaan, the son of Ham:

“May Canaan be cursed!
May he be the lowest of servants to his relatives.”
26 Then Noah said,

“May the Lord, the God of Shem, be blessed,
and may Canaan be his servant!
27 May God expand the territory of Japheth!
May Japheth share the prosperity of Shem,
and may Canaan be his servant.”
28 Noah lived another 350 years after the great flood. 29 He lived 950 years, and then he died.


In this journal, Frederick W. Bassett, “Noah's Nakedness and the Curse of Canaan, a Case of Incest?,” Vetus Testamentum 21, no. 2 (April 1971).

The author suggest that the nakedness of Noah was referring to Noah's son sleeping with his mother.The part "saw that his father was naked" was common used in the bible to say uncovered His fathers nakedness meaning sleeping with his mother. To uncover your brothers nakedness would mean you sleep with your brother wife while alive. The author says that Ham slept with his mother and Canaan was the offspring of such a union and why Canaan was cursed, and why such a harsh curse. I must say that explains alot but also leaves some question. It says his other sons took a robe and walked backwards to cover there fathers nakedness up. This could be a metaphor for Ham tried to get the other brother to engage there mother as well but the brothers turned away and did not sin as ham had done.

So what are your thoughts what was the nakedness of Noah?

 

[now faith]

Genesis: 9. 21. And he drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he was uncovered within his tent. 22. And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without. 23. And Shem and Japheth took a garment, and laid it upon both their shoulders, and went backward, and covered the nakedness of their father; and their faces were backward, and they saw not their father's nakedness. 24. And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him. 25. And he said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren. 26. And he said, Blessed be the LORD God of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant. 27. God shall enlarge Japheth, and he shall dwell in the tents of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.

I can only know what God's word says,to add to it is conjecture.

By looking further into the generations of Noahs 3 sons we see Japheth beginning the Gentile people.
Shem is the beginning of Israel.

Verse 27 is a foreshadow of the Arbramic covenant.

The ambiguity of commentary on the event may be from the generations of Ham.
His generations were Sodom,and Gomorrah,Niniveh and others who were enemies of Israel.

Some speculate Ham took advantag of his Father,personally I believe it was seeing him nude and making
shame by telling his brothers in a manner of disrespect.

 

[Hammster]

I know it's a stretch, but I'm just going to take the text at face value. Noah was naked.

 

[twin1954]

Ham exposed his father's nakedness, his sin, and did it in order to shame him. You might recall that Adam and Eve after they had fallen were naked and ashamed. Why were they ashamed? Because of their sin. Nakedness represents sinfulness just as leprocy does in the Scriptures.

Ham meant to shame his father, much like most do today when they seek to expose the sin of their brothers by pointing fingers, but Shem and Japheth covered it.

 

[Avid]

I know it's a stretch, but I'm just going to take the text at face value. Noah was naked.

Like you have said here, I'll default to the actual words as written in the scriptures.

Many things changed after the Great Flood. This is yet another reference to the way things were before the flood. Very different than what we have known since!

II Peter 3
3 ¶ Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
​

One thing different was that there was some sort of yeast or fungus in the air, that had not been there before. Some scientists conjecture that there was at least one comet (dirty snowball in space) that hit the Earth, partly causing the flood. It may be some sort of thing in that which had not been here before, but NOW, fruit juice left alone for a while, in certain conditions, will ferment.

Noah did not know about this, and fell drunk because of it. We can talk at length of the various things that happen to people who are drunken. Sometimes, the body feels very warm, and that may have been why Noah removed his clothing, forgot to cinch the tent door, and fell unconscious to sleep it off.

Whether or not that was made worse by what was conjectured by that commentary is not indicated in my understanding, though it may have been possible. I have not any idea of that being the case.

 

[USCGrad90]

I think the fact that we are told Shem and Japeth averted their eyes lends to the belief that we can take the way it is written at face value. Ham saw him naked and rather than discretely cover him and go on - he went and told his brothers, intending for them to come take a look as well. Shem and Japeth showed respect for their father, averted their gaze and covered him, avoiding embarrassing him in his drunken state.

Later in Genesis 19: 30-38, we are also told clearly that Lot's 2 daughters took advantage of Lot's drunkenness and got themselves pregnant, so I don't think we need to read more into the issue with Noah and Ham than there actually is.

 

[Hammster]

I think the fact that we are told Shem and Japeth averted their eyes lends to the belief that we can take the way it is written at face value. Ham saw him naked and rather than discretely cover him and go on - he went and told his brothers, intending for them to come take a look as well. Shem and Japeth showed respect for their father, averted their gaze and covered him, avoiding embarrassing him in his drunken state.

Later in Genesis 19: 30-38, we are also told clearly that Lot's 2 daughters took advantage of Lot's drunkenness and got themselves pregnant, so I don't think we need to read more into the issue with Noah and Ham than there actually is.

Good point. It's not like it was written in some sort of code that needs deciphering.

 

[Bluelion]

Genesis: 9. 21. And he drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he was uncovered within his tent. 22. And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without. 23. And Shem and Japheth took a garment, and laid it upon both their shoulders, and went backward, and covered the nakedness of their father; and their faces were backward, and they saw not their father's nakedness. 24. And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him. 25. And he said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren. 26. And he said, Blessed be the LORD God of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant. 27. God shall enlarge Japheth, and he shall dwell in the tents of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.

I can only know what God's word says,to add to it is conjecture.

By looking further into the generations of Noahs 3 sons we see Japheth beginning the Gentile people.
Shem is the beginning of Israel.

Verse 27 is a foreshadow of the Arbramic covenant.

The ambiguity of commentary on the event may be from the generations of Ham.
His generations were Sodom,and Gomorrah,Niniveh and others who were enemies of Israel.

Some speculate Ham took advantag of his Father,personally I believe it was seeing him nude and making
shame by telling his brothers in a manner of disrespect.

I found this interesting of Lots descendants i thought it was Hams for a second but then saw it was Lot.

Here is Bible verse.
Deu 2:9-21 NLT

9 the Lord warned us, ‘Do not bother the Moabites, the descendants of Lot, or start a war with them. I have given them Ar as their property, and I will not give you any of their land.’”

10 (A race of giants called the Emites had once lived in the area of Ar. They were as strong and numerous and tall as the Anakites, another race of giants. 11 Both the Emites and the Anakites are also known as the Rephaites, though the Moabites call them Emites. 12 In earlier times the Horites had lived in Seir, but they were driven out and displaced by the descendants of Esau, just as Israel drove out the people of Canaan when the Lord gave Israel their land.)

13 Moses continued, “Then the Lord said to us, ‘Get moving. Cross the Zered Brook.’ So we crossed the brook.

14 “Thirty-eight years passed from the time we first left Kadesh-barnea until we finally crossed the Zered Brook! By then, all the men old enough to fight in battle had died in the wilderness, as the Lord had vowed would happen. 15 The Lord struck them down until they had all been eliminated from the community.

16 “When all the men of fighting age had died, 17 the Lord said to me, 18 ‘Today you will cross the border of Moab at Ar 19 and enter the land of the Ammonites, the descendants of Lot. But do not bother them or start a war with them. I have given the land of Ammon to them as their property, and I will not give you any of their land.’”

20 (That area was once considered the land of the Rephaites, who had lived there, though the Ammonites call them Zamzummites. 21 They were also as strong and numerous and tall as the Anakites. But the Lord destroyed them so the Ammonites could occupy their land.




Peace and Love
blu

 

[Bluelion]

I think the fact that we are told Shem and Japeth averted their eyes lends to the belief that we can take the way it is written at face value. Ham saw him naked and rather than discretely cover him and go on - he went and told his brothers, intending for them to come take a look as well. Shem and Japeth showed respect for their father, averted their gaze and covered him, avoiding embarrassing him in his drunken state.

Later in Genesis 19: 30-38, we are also told clearly that Lot's 2 daughters took advantage of Lot's drunkenness and got themselves pregnant, so I don't think we need to read more into the issue with Noah and Ham than there actually is.

It seems a server punishment for seeing him seeing his father naked. I think the Bible does use metaphors, case in Point i will put animosity between you and the woman's seed you will strike his heel and he will strike crush your head. Now we know that was Jesus and the Cross but it does not say that. The Bible is not always literal.

Your point about lots daughters is not the same as a woman does not uncover her mothers nakedness if she sleeps with her father. There is a bit of a difference or so we have been taught in school.

 

[Tina W]

I always thought it meant something more than just seeing his father naked too. Noah's reaction did seem harsh for just Ham not covering him up. He cursed the man's descendants and future generations. That's harsh just for someone seeing you naked even if Ham was laughing at him, that's still harsh. If it was just Ham laughing at his father naked, that's not really even worth mentioning, let alone such a severe punishment.

 

[mikedsjr]

Interesting position, since Scripturally it does have merit in the Law of Moses. Never heard that before.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

So what are your thoughts what was the nakedness of Noah?

Sounds like some "Theologian" trying to build a VAST THEORY from half-vast information. All GOd's CHilluns gots "theories".

The Biblical account seems simple and clear. Noah got WASTED, and was lying exposed in his tent. (Gen 9:21)

HAM happened on the scene first. and found the Disgrace of his father to be the funniest thing he'd ever seen, and wanted to denigrate the stupid old fool, and have his brothers join in the fun.

Shem, and Japheth, on the other hand HAD RESPECT for their father, and only wished to COVER His shame, and protect his reputation. And so they did.

The question WE have to ask ourselves is which son would WE be like in similar circumstances? Do we take pleasure in Tearing Down and exposing the disgrace of others, or are we more interested in protecting their dignity.

I think we ALL know what side our "media" desires to take -

 

[Bluelion]

Sounds like some "Theologian" trying to build a VAST THEORY from half-vast information. All GOd's CHilluns gots "theories".

The Biblical account seems simple and clear. Noah got WASTED, and was lying exposed in his tent. (Gen 9:21)

HAM happened on the scene first. and found the Disgrace of his father to be the funniest thing he'd ever seen, and wanted to denigrate the stupid old fool, and have his brothers join in the fun.

Shem, and Japheth, on the other hand HAD RESPECT for their father, and only wished to COVER His shame, and protect his reputation. And so they did.

The question WE have to ask ourselves is which son would WE be like in similar circumstances? Do we take pleasure in Tearing Down and exposing the disgrace of others, or are we more interested in protecting their dignity.

I think we ALL know what side our "media" desires to take -

that's a thought, and interesting, but then again does it say anywhere in the Law that seeing your father naked is a sin? And then you have the saying "to uncover your fathers nakedness" now that phrase the bible is clear it means to sleep with your fathers wife. Herod uncovered his brothers nakedness by taking his brother wife while alive.

Its not theology it is suggesting the text is not literal but spoken in a metaphor. The Bible is not all literal and we would be in deep trouble if it was. Case in point If your eye cause you to sin, even your good eye pluck it out and cast it from you. Have you pulled one of your eyes out because i am sure it has caused you to sin at some point?

You did make a good point about pointing out peoples disgrace.

Peace and Love
blu

 

[USCGrad90]

that's a thought, and interesting, but then again does it say anywhere in the Law that seeing your father naked is a sin? And then you have the saying "to uncover your fathers nakedness" now that phrase the bible is clear it means to sleep with your fathers wife. Herod uncovered his brothers nakedness by taking his brother wife while alive.

Its not theology it is suggesting the text is not literal but spoken in a metaphor. The Bible is not all literal and we would be in deep trouble if it was. Case in point If your eye cause you to sin, even your good eye pluck it out and cast it from you. Have you pulled one of your eyes out because i am sure it has caused you to sin at some point?

You did make a good point about pointing out peoples disgrace.

Peace and Love
blu

Where does it say that Ham "uncovered his father's nakedness?"
I agree that that phrase indicates sexual sin elsewhere, but in this verse, I don't see that it uses that phrase. I think the verse is fairly clear, that the real issue is that Ham "saw" and took time to point out to his brothers that his father was naked rather than trying to protect his dignity. If you have asource that indicates otherwise, it would be good to know, but I can't find it.
KJV: "And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without." Genesis 9:22
Genesis 9:22 Ham, the father of Canaan, saw his father naked and told his two brothers outside.

 

[Hammster]

that's a thought, and interesting, but then again does it say anywhere in the Law that seeing your father naked is a sin? And then you have the saying "to uncover your fathers nakedness" now that phrase the bible is clear it means to sleep with your fathers wife. Herod uncovered his brothers nakedness by taking his brother wife while alive.

Its not theology it is suggesting the text is not literal but spoken in a metaphor. The Bible is not all literal and we would be in deep trouble if it was. Case in point If your eye cause you to sin, even your good eye pluck it out and cast it from you. Have you pulled one of your eyes out because i am sure it has caused you to sin at some point?

You did make a good point about pointing out peoples disgrace.

Peace and Love
blu

Metaphors are clear, as in your example. There's nothing in the text to suggest a metaphor. And it would be extremely odd for a writer to throw one in while writing about an historical event.

 

[classicalhero]

I always thought it meant something more than just seeing his father naked too. Noah's reaction did seem harsh for just Ham not covering him up. He cursed the man's descendants and future generations. That's harsh just for someone seeing you naked even if Ham was laughing at him, that's still harsh. If it was just Ham laughing at his father naked, that's not really even worth mentioning, let alone such a severe punishment.

He only cursed Canaan, not every descendant of Ham. If you look at the history of the Canaanites you will see a history of debauchery and child sacrifice and amongst that homosexuality is part of it, so it seen reasonable to the reason Canaan was cursed because of what he did to his Grandfather and Ham did nothing to stop it and thus getting some of the blame for it.

 

[Bluelion]

Where does it say that Ham "uncovered his father's nakedness?"
I agree that that phrase indicates sexual sin elsewhere, but in this verse, I don't see that it uses that phrase. I think the verse is fairly clear, that the real issue is that Ham "saw" and took time to point out to his brothers that his father was naked rather than trying to protect his dignity. If you have asource that indicates otherwise, it would be good to know, but I can't find it.
KJV: "And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without." Genesis 9:22
Genesis 9:22 Ham, the father of Canaan, saw his father naked and told his two brothers outside.

From the research i have done, People were saying saw his fathers nakedness is the same as uncovered, suggesting past tense like his son was either cursed at birth or this is just the account of Noah finding out what Ham had done. It saying Ham already had committed the sin.

 

[Bluelion]

Metaphors are clear, as in your example. There's nothing in the text to suggest a metaphor. And it would be extremely odd for a writer to throw one in while writing about an historical event.

What you say is clear to you may not be clear to other, Seems clear to me it is a metaphor based on the punishment

 

[Bluelion]

He only cursed Canaan, not every descendant of Ham. If you look at the history of the Canaanites you will see a history of debauchery and child sacrifice and amongst that homosexuality is part of it, so it seen reasonable to the reason Canaan was cursed because of what he did to his Grandfather and Ham did nothing to stop it and thus getting some of the blame for it.

But it does not say Canaan did anything but Ham saw His father nakedness, so why was Canaan cursed?

 

[Hammster]

What you say is clear to you may not be clear to other, Seems clear to me it is a metaphor based on the punishment

You're welcome to that conclusion. But it's certainly not based upon the text.