No way out?

OllieFranz

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The snippet you quoted repeats the promise of 1 Corinthians 10:13, but gives no practical advice. If the full article does give advice, I wouldn't know. Your link tries to connect to the copy that you keep on your hard drive, rather than the original file on the Internet.
 
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Miracle Storm

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So is this just a quibble? Or do you actualy have counter-examples?

Still, "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." And even though I do not feel that this claim is extraordinary, direct evidence is a bit light.

So I did an Internet search for "conversion therapy success" and looked at the first 100 hits. 77 were sites climing that the programs are failures, and some of them went further to claim that they do irreparable harm. 23 of them were for sites about treatments for other conditions that just happened to have the three words in close proximity. None - not one - claimed that the program works.

Out of 100 hits, you'd expect at least one "positive" hit, even if it was just an individual's blog with anecdotal evidence.

One of first hits reported on a study which looked at earlier published studies and at information published by some of the programs themselves.

It mentioned the difficulty in establishing an average success rate because the standards used in the various reports were not the same, and in a couple of cases important primary data was unavailabe.

The best estimate that they could come up with was a success rate between 0 and 0.5% - 5 or less people helped for every thousand who join the program.

I dont have enough posts on CF to post links, but you can find the summary that I found of the study on the religioustolerencedotorg website. The flename of the page is hom_exod1dothtm

Yes, it is a "tolerance" website. Yes it is a summary. But it does inclde links to the information if you wish to examine it.
I don't really have time to search the web for statistics, but I did check one site and it is simple, but true.

First of all, as Bob Davies of Exodus International stated, the ex-gay ministries do not have a 100 percent success rate. However, drug rehabilitation programs have success rates in the 35 percent to 60 percent range; AA's rule of thumb is that if a member remains sober for one year, he (or she) has a 40 percent chance of remaining sober for another.
None of these figures even approaches 100 percent success, but I'm sure that few would call these programs failures. To declare the ex-gay ministries ineffective on the same grounds would seem to be unwarranted.
Likewise, many ex-homosexuals and ex-addicts have to deal with temptation after they have been treated. This, in my opinion, is because homosexuality, like drug or alcohol addiction, is more than just an action: It is a way of thinking, and thus can be a difficult thing to change.
It is because of this that I sympathize with the friend Ms. Janssen mentions in her article who had a nervous breakdown when others tried to change his homosexuality.
I can also to a certain extent understand the comments made by Rev. Sylvia Pennington about the mental trauma of change. In my opinion, any attempt to change a homosexual or addict who does not see a real need for change is guaranteed to fail.
However, I do feel that if a person wishes to change the way he or she behaves, thinks or feels, then help should be available. When I became a Christian and let Jesus Christ change my life, I was not forced or coerced into it; I chose to subvert my will to that of the Lord.
If others had tried to force me to do so, I perhaps would also have experienced some of the incredible guilt and "broken pieces of humanity" that Rev. Pennington described, but with no real change taking place.
The examples of changed lives that I have seen and my belief that "with God all things are possible" (Matthew 19:26) lead me to believe that homosexuals can change and should be encouraged to think about the consequences of their behavior, but only they can and should be the ones to make the decision to change.

Bob Kuligowski​
http://www.collegian.psu.edu/archive/1990/04/04-11-90tdc/04-11-90dops-letter-01.asp


Der Alter and davedjy:

You've obviously been going around on your issue for a while. I assume that there are other threads where you can continue that discussion. Otherwise people will lose track of why I started this thread, and I may never get anyone to look at my question and give a straight answer.

If 1 Corinthians 10:13 promises a "way of escape" from homosexuality, then what is it?
JESUS CHRIST
That is the "way of escape"
Jesus is the only one who can free any of us from our bondages. The desire has to be there to change though, not from others, but from within. Then you must completely turn it over to God. Then you can't think "oh well I've been tempted...it didn't work"
Doesn't work that way, we are all tempted and as Scripture states we are not given more than we can handle. But way to many are ready to give in to temptation. Some believe if the feeling is so strong than there must not be anything wrong with it...whether homosexuality, adultery, greed, gluttony...any sin can be justified if you would rather do that than own up to it.

John 8:36 Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed.
 
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calvins96

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May I ask why some posters here feel the need to get approval from a few fundamentalists? Why?? Will their acceptance give validation? Their opinions make no difference in your life, nor your convictions, so I'm not sure why the back and forth? each one of these threads turns into just another place for the same group of people to go to. What this sorta tells me is why do they continue to come to threads regarding issues that they have no tolerance for nor acceptance of? If I saw threads that spoke about the pains of childbirth, I'd probably not even go there. Not because I don't believe there is no pain, but because it holds very little interest for me, not to mention, that as a man, I'll never give birth to a child so I wouldn't have the ability to discuss something I know nothing about. Given that, all of these so called "heterosexuals" continue to come to every single homosexual board on this forum. More than 1/2 of the threads are started by them. They are on @ wee hours of the morning, some even through out the day. Very interesting for heterosexuals. Most heterosexuals I know couldn't possilby care less about me being gay, or gay topics at all. Funny, the "heterosexuals" here spend all of their time on these threads, and hardly on any others. Perhaps they are dealing with their own demons, and by fighting, and hating people like themselves is theraputic for them.
 
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Miracle Storm

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Yes…you are.
No I'm not. Are you calling me a liar?

The OP compared AA to homosexual ministries that help them recover from the bondage their in. {No not an exact quote.)

It was an analogy, comparing the desire for something sinful. Not comparing homosexuality to a crack addict ONLY the desire. *hint*That would be the desire for anything sinful.

So please in the future don't....
Yes you are
no I'm not
Yes you are
No I'm not
Yes you are.
Surely you could come up with something better than that...:sorry:

It would seem…that there is nothing to escape from
Bondage, captivity, chains, sin, abomination, fornification, lust, depravity, ect...
Those are things I would want to escape.
Praise Jesus that He can and will set us free if we ask! :prayer: :amen:

May I ask why some posters here feel the need to get approval from a few fundamentalists? Why?? Will their acceptance give validation? Their opinions make no difference in your life, nor your convictions, so I'm not sure why the back and forth? each one of these threads turns into just another place for the same group of people to go to. What this sorta tells me is why do they continue to come to threads regarding issues that they have no tolerance for nor acceptance of? If I saw threads that spoke about the pains of childbirth, I'd probably not even go there. Not because I don't believe there is no pain, but because it holds very little interest for me, not to mention, that as a man, I'll never give birth to a child so I wouldn't have the ability to discuss something I know nothing about.
Erm :scratch: childbirth is not sin.
calvins96 said:
Given that, all of these so called "heterosexuals" continue to come to every single homosexual board on this forum.
so called? :scratch:
calvins96 said:
More than 1/2 of the threads are started by them. They are on @ wee hours of the morning, some even through out the day.
Different time zones, different work hours, different sleep habits. Get over it.
Calvins96 said:
Very interesting for heterosexuals. Most heterosexuals I know couldn't possilby care less about me being gay, or gay topics at all.
Are they Christians?
calvins96 said:
Funny, the "heterosexuals" here spend all of their time on these threads, and hardly on any others.
"heterosexuals" ??? :scratch: Maybe you should check the other forums on this board, because you are stating something that is untrue and you obviously have not even looked into to say such.
calvins96 said:
Perhaps they are dealing with their own demons, and by fighting, and hating people like themselves is theraputic for them.
I believe we all are dealing with are own "demons" temptations, problems. But who here is fighting, who here is hating? These are false ignorant assumptions on your part to make such a broad statement about all who come here defending the Word of God.
 
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BAFRIEND

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calvin96:
May I ask why some posters here feel the need to get approval from a few fundamentalists? Why?? Will their acceptance give validation? Their opinions make no difference in your life, nor your convictions, so I'm not sure why the back and forth?

I don't think that most or any are trying to seek anyone's approval or validation as you put it on this debate forum.

I go back and forth between here and other forums while waiting for responses to posts on other forums and for the most part I see this particular forum as great entertainment and kinship with those who post here whether on my side or not.

Even I do not see anyone on this forum as being so weak and simple minded as needing my validation. I just debate here, get over yourself with your lectures and sense of personal superiority over others. It is a turn off.
 
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OllieFranz

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I don't really have time to search the web for statistics, but I did check one site and it is simple, but true.

First of all, as Bob Davies of Exodus International stated, the ex-gay ministries do not have a 100 percent success rate. However, drug rehabilitation programs have success rates in the 35 percent to 60 percent range; AA's rule of thumb is that if a member remains sober for one year, he (or she) has a 40 percent chance of remaining sober for another.
None of these figures even approaches 100 percent success, but I'm sure that few would call these programs failures. To declare the ex-gay ministries ineffective on the same grounds would seem to be unwarranted.
Likewise, many ex-homosexuals and ex-addicts have to deal with temptation after they have been treated. This, in my opinion, is because homosexuality, like drug or alcohol addiction, is more than just an action: It is a way of thinking, and thus can be a difficult thing to change.
It is because of this that I sympathize with the friend Ms. Janssen mentions in her article who had a nervous breakdown when others tried to change his homosexuality.
I can also to a certain extent understand the comments made by Rev. Sylvia Pennington about the mental trauma of change. In my opinion, any attempt to change a homosexual or addict who does not see a real need for change is guaranteed to fail.
However, I do feel that if a person wishes to change the way he or she behaves, thinks or feels, then help should be available. When I became a Christian and let Jesus Christ change my life, I was not forced or coerced into it; I chose to subvert my will to that of the Lord.
If others had tried to force me to do so, I perhaps would also have experienced some of the incredible guilt and "broken pieces of humanity" that Rev. Pennington described, but with no real change taking place.
The examples of changed lives that I have seen and my belief that "with God all things are possible" (Matthew 19:26) lead me to believe that homosexuals can change and should be encouraged to think about the consequences of their behavior, but only they can and should be the ones to make the decision to change.

Bob Kuligowski

Actually, 35 - 60% is much higher than I would expect from those secular programs. There are a lot of people who are "sent" to those programs (by judges and employers, for example), when they are not ready to change. Nor can those programs rely on the renewal and growth that the Holy Spirit works in the hearts of repentant Christians.

But Mr Davies does not mention the success rate of his own Exodus International, at least not in that article. In the data submitted to the study in my link, it works out to about 0.5% That is a huge difference from 35% - and in the wrong direction!

I have no reason to question Mr Davies' or his colleagues' motives or credentials, so I am left to wonder. If a program sincerely run by loving, Bible-committed Christians is not acheiving its purpose could it be that they are mistaken either about the nature of the problem or about God's plan for dealing with it?

In other words, is this problem in some way fundamentally different from mere addiction? Does God have a different plan for dealing with those stuggling with these feelings?


JESUS CHRIST
That is the "way of escape"
Jesus is the only one who can free any of us from our bondages. The desire has to be there to change though, not from others, but from within. Then you must completely turn it over to God. Then you can't think "oh well I've been tempted...it didn't work"
Doesn't work that way, we are all tempted and as Scripture states we are not given more than we can handle. But way to many are ready to give in to temptation. Some believe if the feeling is so strong than there must not be anything wrong with it...whether homosexuality, adultery, greed, gluttony...any sin can be justified if you would rather do that than own up to it.

John 8:36 Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed.


I agree. In my very first sentence in the OP I said as much:
It is my understanding that we are born into (Original)Sin. That we have a Sin(ful) Nature and because of this, none of us can live a sin-free life without God's grace, Jesus redemption, and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.​
But the Holy Spirit uses us in the practical working out of His guiding our spiritual growth and renewal. we encourage one another and lift one another up.

So, if it is not Exodus International and other conversion therapy programs, what is the practical "way of escape"? What advice is there that you would give a friend struggling with this issue? Or your brother? Or your son?
 
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Miracle Storm

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Actually, 35 - 60% is much higher than I would expect from those secular programs. There are a lot of people who are "sent" to those programs (by judges and employers, for example), when they are not ready to change.
This is true, I know a few people who have went for these very reasons and do not attend anymore and are not sober.
OllieFranz said:
Nor can those programs rely on the renewal and growth that the Holy Spirit works in the hearts of repentant Christians.
There are more Bible based AA programs available, but rare.
OllieFranz said:
But Mr Davies does not mention the success rate of his own Exodus International, at least not in that article. In the data submitted to the study in my link, it works out to about 0.5% That is a huge difference from 35% - and in the wrong direction!

I have no reason to question Mr Davies' or his colleagues' motives or credentials, so I am left to wonder. If a program sincerely run by loving, Bible-committed Christians is not acheiving its purpose could it be that they are mistaken either about the nature of the problem or about God's plan for dealing with it?
I'm very doubtful of that. I think most of the problem stems from when temptation comes most people fall back into their sin. Some convince themselves it is not sin at all. Some even come to a point where they deny certain Scripture all to justify sin.
OllieFranz said:
In other words, is this problem in some way fundamentally different from mere addiction? Does God have a different plan for dealing with those stuggling with these feelings?
I believe it is no different than any other sin.
OllieFranz said:
I agree. In my very first sentence in the OP I said as much:
It is my understanding that we are born into (Original)Sin. That we have a Sin(ful) Nature and because of this, none of us can live a sin-free life without God's grace, Jesus redemption, and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.​
But the Holy Spirit uses us in the practical working out of His guiding our spiritual growth and renewal. we encourage one another and lift one another up.

So, if it is not Exodus International and other conversion therapy programs, what is the practical "way of escape"? What advice is there that you would give a friend struggling with this issue? Or your brother? Or your son?
The "pratical way of escape" is Jesus Christ.
I cannot say I have a certain therapy that would help my "brother" "son" but what I can do is tell them the word of God, be there for them, go to church, pray with them. Ultimately it is between the individual and God.
Do they want it bad enough? Are they willing to sacrifice and give up the sin they so yearn for, that they feel will only gratify their sexual desires, or their loneliness?
God is the only One who can fill that empty space, He is the only One that can set them free. He will do so, if you seek.
God is reality and so there could be no better advice.
 
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