No way out?

OllieFranz

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It is my understanding that we are born into (Original)Sin. That we have a Sin(ful) Nature and because of this, none of us can live a sin-free life without God's grace, Jesus redemption, and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. [The parenthases above are because different Christian traditions sometimes use slightly different terms. I don't want this discussion to be derailed on such a minor point as using the"wrong" one.]

But once we accept the free gift of salvation, we can call upon the promise: "No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it." [1 Cor 10:13 NASB]

The working of this promise can be seen even in such pale imitations of Christian fellowship ministries as Alcoholics Anonymous and similar programs. The don't promise salvation. In fact they admit that they can do nothing for the condition - that it's an "incurable disease." [We know that it is just the most obvious manifestation of the Sin Nature, and in Christians the Holy Spirit is working to change it.] Despite this, they do have a fairly decent success rate in terms of changing behavior for the better.

So why are Christian "Ex-gay" conversion therapy minstries such a failure? Many people go into them hoping to be helped to overcome their homosexual urges, and yet almost no one is truly helped.

Perhaps because this is not the kind of "way of escape" provided for this particular problem. The sex drive is one of the strongest urges humans experience, and rightly so. It is a gift of God, to ensure the propegation of the human race and the strength of the family.Because of this strength, there are temptations to misuse God's gift.

What does God say is the proper "way of escape from the lustful temptations that lead to fornication and adultery?

"Yet I wish that all men were even as I myself am. However, each man has his own gift from God, one in this manner, and another in that. But I say to the unmarried and to widows that it is good for them if they remain even as I. But if they do not have self-control, let them marry; for it is better to marry than to burn (with passion)*." [1 Cor 7:7-9, NASB]
*added by the translators (for clarity?)

The lust that gays feel is just as stong as that which straights feel. Paul's advice that it is better to marry than to burn must apply to them as well as to straights.

Channelling them into straight marriages, though would be a disaster. The adultery and the breakups when they can no longer hide their true feelings are far worse than if they'd never made marriage vows.

"It is better that you should not vow than that you should vow and not pay." [Eccl 5:5 NASB]

So what's left? I can see only one thing. The Bible, and the Bible's God must consider faithful, loving same-sex marriage to be not only allowable but far better than wanton promiscuity.
 

savedandhappy1

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[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Two different Greek words are translated as "love" in the New Testament, and they have more specific meanings than our English word "love."[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Agapao[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica] (verb) and [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]agape[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica] (noun).[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica] This is the "Christian love" of the Bible. It means affection, benevolence, good-will, high esteem and concern for the welfare of the one loved. It is deliberate, purposeful love rather than emotional or impulsive love. Almost all of the New Testament references to love are [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]agapao[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica] or [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]agape[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica] in the original Greek. The King James Version of the Bible sometimes translates [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]agape[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica] as "charity," but charity has now taken on the meaning of assistance to the poor rather than benevolent love.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Phileo[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica] (verb).[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica] This means to love in an impulsive and emotional way. It is seldom used in the Bible, but there is a play on words (lost in English) in John 21:15-17. Jesus says to Peter, "Simon son of John, do you truly love ([/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]agapao[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]) me?" Peter answers, "Yes, Lord, you know that I love ([/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]phileo[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]) you." [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Philadelphia[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica] is a related word meaning the love of brothers or sisters (e.g., Romans 12:10). It is often translated "brotherly love."[/FONT]

I have often wondered why the love that is spoke of in the Bible, which has nothing to do with a monogamous relationship, is used to try and say that God is ok with SSA because He is a God of love.

It does make it clear why there will be no marriages or giving in marriage in heaven.

Making a law that gives SSA's the right to marry won't make a sin not a sin, just because those who are already doing the act won't be fornicating anymore.

OllieFranz said:
So what's left? I can see only one thing. The Bible, and the Bible's God must consider faithful, loving same-sex marriage to be not only allowable but far better than wanton promiscuity.

So what's left? I can see only one thing. The Bible and the Bible's God considers it a sin, and so since He can't lie He will stand by what He says and help us all through any and all temptations.
 
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BAFRIEND

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So what's left? I can see only one thing. The Bible, and the Bible's God must consider faithful, loving same-sex marriage to be not only allowable but far better than wanton promiscuity.

Nowhere in the Bible does it speak of same sex marriage- in fact, Jesus himself pointedly speaks of marriage between a man and a woman as does the OT.

There is no such thing as same sex marriage, the false concept is not an answer to wanton promiscuity, but s syptom of it. Adultery and scandal.
 
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Miracle Storm

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It is my understanding that we are born into (Original)Sin. That we have a Sin(ful) Nature and because of this, none of us can live a sin-free life without God's grace, Jesus redemption, and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. [The parenthases above are because different Christian traditions sometimes use slightly different terms. I don't want this discussion to be derailed on such a minor point as using the"wrong" one.]

But once we accept the free gift of salvation, we can call upon the promise: "No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it." [1 Cor 10:13 NASB]

The working of this promise can be seen even in such pale imitations of Christian fellowship ministries as Alcoholics Anonymous and similar programs. The don't promise salvation. In fact they admit that they can do nothing for the condition - that it's an "incurable disease." [We know that it is just the most obvious manifestation of the Sin Nature, and in Christians the Holy Spirit is working to change it.] Despite this, they do have a fairly decent success rate in terms of changing behavior for the better.

So why are Christian "Ex-gay" conversion therapy minstries such a failure? Many people go into them hoping to be helped to overcome their homosexual urges, and yet almost no one is truly helped.

Perhaps because this is not the kind of "way of escape" provided for this particular problem. The sex drive is one of the strongest urges humans experience, and rightly so. It is a gift of God, to ensure the propegation of the human race and the strength of the family.Because of this strength, there are temptations to misuse God's gift.

What does God say is the proper "way of escape from the lustful temptations that lead to fornication and adultery?

"Yet I wish that all men were even as I myself am. However, each man has his own gift from God, one in this manner, and another in that. But I say to the unmarried and to widows that it is good for them if they remain even as I. But if they do not have self-control, let them marry; for it is better to marry than to burn (with passion)*." [1 Cor 7:7-9, NASB]
*added by the translators (for clarity?)

The lust that gays feel is just as stong as that which straights feel. Paul's advice that it is better to marry than to burn must apply to them as well as to straights.

Channelling them into straight marriages, though would be a disaster. The adultery and the breakups when they can no longer hide their true feelings are far worse than if they'd never made marriage vows.

"It is better that you should not vow than that you should vow and not pay." [Eccl 5:5 NASB]

So what's left? I can see only one thing. The Bible, and the Bible's God must consider faithful, loving same-sex marriage to be not only allowable but far better than wanton promiscuity.
I know someone who believes in God, and he is a crack addict. He has been to many rehabs, prayed over many times, searched the Word and prayed on hands and knees crying.

He is still a crack addict, but similar to what you are saying it seems you feel he should remain in that sinful place continue to smoke crack instead of burning for desire for it...

No, I am not comparing homosexuality to crack addicts.
The fact is though sin is sin, there is no difference for all fall short of the glory of God.

This is what's true:
"No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it."

So God can handle it. It's a matter of first admitting it is sin and giving it completely over to God....
 
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OllieFranz

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[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Two different Greek words are translated as "love" in the New Testament, and they have more specific meanings than our English word "love."[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Agapao[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica] (verb) and [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]agape[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica] (noun).[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica] This is the "Christian love" of the Bible. It means affection, benevolence, good-will, high esteem and concern for the welfare of the one loved. It is deliberate, purposeful love rather than emotional or impulsive love. Almost all of the New Testament references to love are [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]agapao[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica] or [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]agape[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica] in the original Greek. The King James Version of the Bible sometimes translates [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]agape[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica] as "charity," but charity has now taken on the meaning of assistance to the poor rather than benevolent love.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Phileo[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica] (verb).[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica] This means to love in an impulsive and emotional way. It is seldom used in the Bible, but there is a play on words (lost in English) in John 21:15-17. Jesus says to Peter, "Simon son of John, do you truly love ([/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]agapao[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]) me?" Peter answers, "Yes, Lord, you know that I love ([/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]phileo[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]) you." [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Philadelphia[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica] is a related word meaning the love of brothers or sisters (e.g., Romans 12:10). It is often translated "brotherly love."[/FONT]

I have often wondered why the love that is spoke of in the Bible, which has nothing to do with a monogamous relationship, is used to try and say that God is ok with SSA because He is a God of love.

It does make it clear why there will be no marriages or giving in marriage in heaven.

Making a law that gives SSA's the right to marry won't make a sin not a sin, just because those who are already doing the act won't be fornicating anymore.

Did you even read my post? I did not confuse the two Greek words for love. I did not mention love at all, except in the very last sentence. Where I implied that ideally a marriage should include love.

So what's left? I can see only one thing. The Bible and the Bible's God considers it a sin, and so since He can't lie He will stand by what He says and help us all through any and all temptations.

Yes, he said that there is a way of escape. That's my whole point. What is it?
 
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OllieFranz

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Nowhere in the Bible does it speak of same sex marriage- in fact, Jesus himself pointedly speaks of marriage between a man and a woman as does the OT.

There is no such thing as same sex marriage, the false concept is not an answer to wanton promiscuity, but s syptom of it. Adultery and scandal.

I never claimed that it did.

It does promise a way of escape, though. What is that way?
 
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OllieFranz

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I know someone who believes in God, and he is a crack addict. He has been to many rehabs, prayed over many times, searched the Word and prayed on hands and knees crying.

He is still a crack addict, but similar to what you are saying it seems you feel he should remain in that sinful place continue to smoke crack instead of burning for desire for it...

No, I am not comparing homosexuality to crack addicts.
The fact is though sin is sin, there is no difference for all fall short of the glory of God.

You are missing the whole point of my question. Narcotics Anonymous and similar programs, and even moreso Christian ministries for drug addiction do provide a way of escape for addicts. They are not 100% effective for various reasons, but they have high success rates.

Conversion Therapy ministries, on the other hand do not work. There are too many failures and no lasting successes at all. Clearly, then, they are not the "way of escape."

This is what's true:
"No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it."

So God can handle it. It's a matter of first admitting it is sin and giving it completely over to God....

I agree. That is where I began my question. But what is that "way of escape"?
 
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Der Alte

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. . . [SIZE=-1]Conversion Therapy ministries, on the other hand do not work. There are too many failures and no lasting successes at all. Clearly, then, they are not the "way of escape.".[/SIZE] . .

On what are you basing this broad claim?
 
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OllieFranz

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On what are you basing this broad claim?

I have never seen anyone even attempt to prove otherwise whenever the news media reports on the failures. Even the leaders and founders of many of the ministries admit they don't work. If you have evidence to the contrary I'd be glad to hear it.
 
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Der Alte

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[SIZE=-1]I have never seen anyone even attempt to prove otherwise whenever the news media reports on the failures. Even the leaders and founders of many of the ministries admit they don't work. If you have evidence to the contrary I'd be glad to hear it.[/SIZE]

You made the claim, you back it up.
 
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davedjy

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Savedandhappy1 said:
The Bible and the Bible's God considers it a sin,

By your "interpretation"...


Homosexuality as one's innate sexual constitution IS NOT condemned anywhere in the original Scriptures. 1 Cor 6:9 is a false translation, and if you don't know the historical context of the verses in question, then you don't even have a leg to stand on. The sad thing is that people are born this way (such as me), and we are told that our orientations are "sinful" and against God. 450 Vertebrate species born gay, bi, lesbian and transgender. Fundamental Christianity is so narrow-minded, it cannot see outside the narrow box it places life and humanity in.
 
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Der Alte

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[SIZE=-1]By your "interpretation"...

Homosexuality as one's innate sexual constitution IS NOT condemned anywhere in the original Scriptures. 1 Cor 6:9 is a false translation, and if you don't know the historical context of the verses in question, then you don't even have a leg to stand on. The sad thing is that people are born this way (such as me), and we are told that our orientations are "sinful" and against God. 450 Vertebrate species born gay, bi, lesbian and transgender. Fundamental Christianity is so narrow-minded, it cannot see outside the narrow box it places life and humanity in.[/SIZE]

Homosexuality was condemned by ALL, 100% of Bible scholars, Jewish and Christian, from the time of Moses thru the founding of the church, and for at least the 1st 300-400 years of the church.

From the time Moses delivered the law, to the Israelites, ca. 1200 BC, until the present, Jewish scholars interpreted the O.T. scriptures as condemning ALL same gender sex acts; by ALL persons, male and female; at ALL times, in ALL places, and under ALL circumstances, NO exceptions or exclusions. The early church fathers also interpreted the N.T. scriptures as condemning ALL homosexual acts, with NO exceptions.

The ancient Jewish scholars and the ECF did NOT even mention, and did NOT limit the condemnation of homosexual acts to, “homosexual rape,”“temple prostitution,”“enslaved boy prostitutes,”“effete, jaded Roman nobles,” pagan temples and/or pagan religious activities!

Recent posts: Evidence, rabbinical rulings dating from 1200 BC, copied directly from the Soncino Talmud, tractate Sanhedrin, portfolio 54, and other ancient Jewish writings, Link

Evidence copied directly from the writings of early church fathers, dating between 50 AD and 258 AD, Link

If there are "450 Vertebrate species born gay, bi, lesbian and transgender." as you repeatedly claim, then ancient scholars must have had words to describe it. What are those words?

Where do those supposed transgender vertebrate species go for counseling, hormone therapy, and transgender surgery?

"1 Cor 6:9 is a false translation, and if you don't know the historical context of the verses in question, then you don't even have a leg to stand on." You do NOT know the historical context, you don't even know what that means.

[SIZE=+1]Here is the historical context![/SIZE]

The early church interpreted αρσενοκοιτης/arsenokoités [1 Cor 6:9] variously as,
• “sodomy,”
• “filth of sodomy,”
• ”lawless lust,”
• “lust,”
• “impurity,”
• “works of the flesh,”
• “carnal,”
• “lawless intercourse,”
• “shameless,”
• “burning with insane love for boys,”
• “licentiousness,”
• “co-habitors with males,”
• “lusters after mankind
• “monstrosities,” etc.​
Quoted from;
• Ignatius, 30-107 AD;
• Polycarp 65 - 155 AD;
• Irenaeus, 120-202 AD;
• Theophilus, 115 - 181 AD;
• Clement of Alexandria, 153 - 217 AD;
• Tertullian, 145-220 AD;
• Cyprian, 200-258 AD; and
• Origen, 185-254 AD.​
Note the dates, of these writings, extend from ca. 50 AD through 258 AD, more than 250 years. The early church fathers interpreted the scriptures as condemning ALL homosexuals acts; by ALL persons, male and female; in ALL places, under ALL circumstance, at ALL times, NO exceptions.

The ECF did NOT even mention, and did NOT limit the condemnation of homosexual acts to, “homosexual rape,” “temple prostitution,” pagan temples and/or religious activities!
Epistle Of Ignatius [Disciple of John] To The Ephesians [A.D. 30-107.]

But as to the practice of magic, or the impure love of boys, or murder, it is superfluous to write to you, since such vices are forbidden to be committed even by the Gentiles. I do not issue commands on these points as if I were an apostle; but, as your fellow-servant, I put you in mind of them.

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.v.html

Epistle of Polycarp [Disciple of John] to the Philippians Chapter V.-The Duties of Deacons, Youths, and Virgins. [65 - 155 AD]

In like manner, let the young men also be blameless in all things, being especially careful to preserve purity, and keeping themselves in, as with a bridle, from every kind of evil. For it is well that they should be cut off from the lusts that are in the world, since "every lust warreth against the spirit; " and "neither fornicators, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, shall inherit the kingdom of God, [1 Cor 6:9] " nor those who do things inconsistent and unbecoming.

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.iv.ii.html

Irenaeus [Disciple of Polycarp]Against Heresies Book V [120-202 AD]

So also he who has continued in the aforesaid works of the flesh, being truly reckoned as carnal, because he did not receive the Spirit of God, shall not have power to inherit the kingdom of heaven. As, again, the same apostle [Paul] testifies, saying to the Corinthians, "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not err," he says: "neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor revilers, nor rapacious persons, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And these ye indeed have been; but ye have been washed, but ye have been sanctified, but ye have been justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and in the Spirit of our God." [1 Cor 6:9].

Since, therefore, in that passage [1 Cor 6:9] he [Paul] recounts those works of the flesh which are without the Spirit, which bring death [upon their doers],

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.ix.html


Theophilus to Autolycus Book III [115 - 181 AD]
Chapter VI.-Other Opinions of the Philosophers.


And these things the other laws of the Romans and Greeks also prohibit. Why, then, do Epicurus and the Stoics teach incest and sodomy, with which doctrines they have filled libraries, so that from boyhood this lawless intercourse is learned?

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf02.iv.ii.iii.html

Clement of Alexandria The Instructor. [Paedagogus.] Book III [153 - 217 AD]

The fate of the Sodomites was judgment to those who had done wrong, instruction to those who hear. The Sodomites having, through much luxury, fallen into uncleanness, practicing adultery shamelessly, and burning with insane love for boys; the All-seeing Word, whose notice those who commit impieties cannot escape, cast His eye on them. . . .Accordingly, the just punishment of the Sodomites became to men an image of the salvation which is well calculated for men.

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf02.vi.iii.iii.html

Clement of Alexandria Exhortation To The Heathen

And what are the laws? “Thou shalt not kill; thou shalt not commit adultery; thou shalt not seduce boys; thou shalt not steal; thou shalt not bear false witness; thou shalt love the Lord thy God.” And the complements of these are those laws of reason and words of sanctity which are inscribed on men’s hearts: “Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself; to him who strikes thee on the cheek, present also the other;” “thou shalt not lust, for by lust alone thou hast committed adultery.”

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf02.vi.ii.html

Clement of Alexandria The Instructor [Paedagogus] Book 1

But life has reached this pitch of licentiousness through the wantonness of wickedness, and lasciviousness is diffused over the cities, having become law. Beside them women stand in the stews, offering their own flesh for hire for lewd pleasure, and boys, taught to deny their sex, act the part of women. Luxury has deranged all things; it has disgraced man. A luxurious niceness seeks everything, attempts everything, forces everything, coerces nature. Men play the part of women, and women that of men, contrary to nature; women are at once wives and husbands: [Lesbian marriage] no passage is closed against libidinousness; [i.e. every possible body opening is used for “lechery”/“libidinousness.”] and their promiscuous lechery is a public institution, and luxury is domesticated.

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf02.vi.iii.i.html

Clement of Alexandria The Instructor - Pedagogos Book 3
Chapter 3
Against Men Who Embellish Themselves


Such was predicted of old, and the result is notorious: the whole earth has now become full of fornication and wickedness. I admire the ancient legislators of the Romans: these detested effeminacy of conduct; and the giving of the body to feminine purposes, contrary to the law of nature, they judged worthy of the extremest penalty, according to the righteousness of the law.

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf02.vi.iii.iii.html

Tertullian On Modesty [145-220 AD]
Chapter XVI.-General Consistency of the Apostle.


Just as, again, among all other crimes-nay, even before all others-when affirming that "adulterers, and fornicators, and effeminates, and co-habitors with males, will not attain the kingdom of God, [1 Cor 6:9]" he premised, "Do not err" -to wit, if you think they will attain it. But to them from whom "the kingdom" is taken away, of course the life which exists in the kingdom is not permitted either. Moreover, by superadding, "But such indeed ye have been; but ye have received ablution, but ye have been sanctified, in the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and in the Spirit of our God;" [1 Cor 6:9]

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf04.iii.viii.html

Tertullian The Chaplet, or De Corona. Chapter VI. [145-220 AD]

Demanding then a law of God, you have that common one [law] prevailing all over the world, engraven on the natural tables to which the apostle too is wont to appeal, as when in respect. of the woman's veil he says, "Does not even Nature teach you? " -as when to the Romans, affirming that the heathen do by nature those things which the law requires, he suggests both natural law and a law-revealing nature. Yes, and also in the first chapter of the epistle [Rom 1.] he authenticates nature, when he asserts that males and females changed among themselves the natural use of the creature into that which is unnatural, by way of penal retribution for their error. [Rom 1:27]

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf03.iv.vi.html

Tertullian VII. On Modesty.[sup]1[/sup] Chapter IV.-Adultery and Fornication Synonymous.

Accordingly, among us, secret connections as well-connections, that is, not first professed in presence of the Church-run risk of being judged akin to adultery and fornication; nor must we let them, if thereafter woven together by the covering of marriage, elude the charge. But all the other frenzies of passions-impious both toward the bodies and toward the sexes-beyond the laws of nature, we banish not only from the threshold, but from all shelter of the Church, because they are not sins, but monstrosities.

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf04.iii.viii.html

Cyprian Treatise XII Three Books of Testimonies Against the Jews [200-258 AD]

65.
That all sins are put away in baptism.

In the first Epistle of Paul to the Corinthians: "Neither fornicators, nor those who serve idols, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor the lusters after mankind, nor thieves, nor cheaters, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor robbers, shall obtain the kingdom of God. And these things indeed ye were: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, and in the Spirit of our God." [1 Cor 6:9].

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf05.iv.v.xii.html

Origen Against Celsus Book 8 [185-254 AD] [student of Clement of Alexandria]

and that they often exhibit in their character a high degree of gravity, of purity, and
integrity; while those who call themselves wise have despised these virtues, and have wallowed in the filth of sodomy, in lawless lust, “men with men working that which is unseemly.” [Rom 1:27]

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf04.vi.ix.viii.html
 
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davedjy

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Der Alter said:
Homosexuality was condemned by ALL, 100% of Bible scholars, Jewish and Christian, from the time of Moses thru the founding of the church, and for at least the 1st 300-400 years of the church.

You have yet to bring one shred of proof of this.
The rest of what you bring here is just "doctrinal beliefs", and "interpretations" at BEST!
 
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Der Alte

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[SIZE=-1]You have yet to bring one shred of proof of this.
The rest of what you bring here is just "doctrinal beliefs", and "interpretations" at BEST![/SIZE]

No, proof if you close your eyes and refuse to read the post immediately before yours and this one.

From the time of Moses, ca. 1200 BC, the Talmudic scholars interpreted the scriptures as condemning ALL homosexuals acts; by ALL persons, male and female; in ALL places, under ALL circumstance, at ALL times, NO exceptions.

The Talmudic scholars did NOT even mention, and did NOT limit the condemnation of homosexual acts to, “homosexual rape,” “temple prostitution,” pagan temples and/or religious activities!
Talmud -- Tractate Sanhedrin Folio 54a

MISHNAH. HE WHO COMMITS SODOMY WITH A MALE OR A BEAST, AND A WOMAN THAT COMMITS inappropriate behavior with animals ARE STONED
. . . . Our Rabbis taught: If a man lieth also with mankind, as the lyings of a woman,29 both of them have committed on abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them,]. . . [Note: All upper case appears in the original]

Sanhedrin 54b

This teaches the punishment: whence do we derive the formal prohibition? — From the verse, Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is an abomination.[sup]1[/sup] . . . whence do we know a formal prohibition for the person who permits himself thus to be abused? — Scripture saith: There shall be no sodomite of the sons of Israel:[sup]2[/sup] and it is further said, . . .

Now, he who [actively] commits pederasty, and also [passively] permits himself to be thus abused — R. Abbahu said: On R. Ishmael's view, he is liable to two penalties, one [for the injunction] derived from thou shalt not lie with mankind, and the other for [violating the prohibition,] There shall not be a Sodomite of the sons of Israel. . . .

for there shall be no Sodomite applies to sodomy with mankind. [sup]13[/sup] . . .

Talmud link

<>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <><

Jewish Encyclopedia - Dog

The shamelessness of the dog in regard to sexual life gave rise to the name ("dog") for the class of priests in the service of Astarte who practised sodomy ("kedeshim," called also by the Greeks &#954;&#965;&#957;&#945;&#943;&#948;&#959;&#953;, Deut. xxiii. 19 [A. V. 18]; compare ib. 18 [17] and Rev. xxii. 15; see Driver ad loc.), . . .(see "C. I. S." i., No. 86).

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=415&letter=D

Jewish Encyclopedia - Chastity

(e) The unnatural crimes against chastity, sodomy and pederasty, prevalent in heathendom, were strictly prohibited (Lev. xviii. 22, 23; xx. 13, 15, 16; Deut. xxvii. 21).

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=386&letter=C

Jewish Encyclopedia - DIDACHE -

Dependence upon Jewish Custom.


2: "Thou shalt not commit adultery" (Ex. xx. 14). (This includes: "Thou shalt not commit sodomy nor fornication.") "Thou shalt not steal" (Ex. xx. 15). . . .

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=341&letter=D

Jewish Encyclopedia - Crime

In three cases the person on the point of committing a crime may be killed: where he pursues a neighbor in order to kill him; where he pursues a male to commit sodomy;

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=301&letter=L

Jewish Encyclopedia - The 613 Commandments,: 3347-53.

Adultery, sodomy, etc. Lev. Xviii. 7, 14, 20, 22, 23.

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=689&letter=C
The following citations document the interpretation by contemporary orthodox Judaism.
"We Can't Legitimate Homosexuality Halakhically" (USCJ Review, Spring 2004): Joel Roth

The two verses in the book of (Leviticus (18:22 and 20:13) which deal with homosexuality are really quite clear, despite the efforts of some to call their clarity into question. (Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13 absolutely forbid homosexual intercourse between males. The Rabbis, in the Sifra (Aharei Mot 9:8), also understand the Torah to forbid lesbianism. The Torah’s prohibitions, let it be clear, are against actions, like male homosexual intercourse, not against fantasies or attractions.

The Torah and the Rabbis do not distinguish between types of homosexuals in any way... The Rabbis were well able to conceive of monogamous and loving relationships between members of the same sex, and I quote in my paper the texts that prove this beyond reasonable question. But their words cannot possibly be read to imply that such monogamous or loving gay relationships are in a different halakhic [Jewish legal] category than any other relationships between members of the same sex. The prohibition is clear and total.”​

http://www.uscj.org/POINTRoth6331.html

Naomi Grossman, freelance journalist, states in her April 2001 article in Moment Magazine, "The Gay Orthodox Undergound":

"The Torah strictly forbids homosexual sex, and rabbis have consistently upheld that prohibition through the ages... The prohibition against homosexual sex comes from Leviticus: 'Do not lie with a male as one lies with a woman; it is an abhorrence' (18:22). In biblical times, the punishment for violating that code was clear. 'If a man lies with a male as one lies with a woman, the two of them have done an abhorrent thing; they shall be put to death -— their bloodguilt is upon them' (Leviticus 20:13). The Talmud extends the prohibition to lesbian sex [Hilchot Issurei Bi'ah 21:8]."

Official Orthodoxy makes no distinction between the sex act, which the Torah flatly prohibits, and homosexuality as a sexual identity.
"Homosexuality is not a state of being in traditional Judaism; it's an act," Freundel says. "Desires are … not relevant."​

http://members.aol.com/gayjews/moment.html
 
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davedjy

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No, proof if you close your eyes and refuse to read the post immediately before yours and this one.

From the time of Moses, ca. 1200 BC, the Talmudic scholars interpreted the scriptures as condemning ALL homosexuals acts; by ALL persons, male and female; in ALL places, under ALL circumstance, at ALL times, NO exceptions.

The Talmudic scholars did NOT even mention, and did NOT limit the condemnation of homosexual acts to, “homosexual rape,” “temple prostitution,” pagan temples and/or religious activities!
Talmud -- Tractate Sanhedrin Folio 54a

MISHNAH. HE WHO COMMITS SODOMY WITH A MALE OR A BEAST, AND A WOMAN THAT COMMITS inappropriate behavior with animals ARE STONED
. . . . Our Rabbis taught: If a man lieth also with mankind, as the lyings of a woman,29 both of them have committed on abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them,]. . . [Note: All upper case appears in the original]

Sanhedrin 54b

This teaches the punishment: whence do we derive the formal prohibition? — From the verse, Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is an abomination.[sup]1[/sup] . . . whence do we know a formal prohibition for the person who permits himself thus to be abused? — Scripture saith: There shall be no sodomite of the sons of Israel:[sup]2[/sup] and it is further said, . . .

Now, he who [actively] commits pederasty, and also [passively] permits himself to be thus abused — R. Abbahu said: On R. Ishmael's view, he is liable to two penalties, one [for the injunction] derived from thou shalt not lie with mankind, and the other for [violating the prohibition,] There shall not be a Sodomite of the sons of Israel. . . .

for there shall be no Sodomite applies to sodomy with mankind. [sup]13[/sup] . . .

Talmud link

<>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <><

Jewish Encyclopedia - Dog

The shamelessness of the dog in regard to sexual life gave rise to the name ("dog") for the class of priests in the service of Astarte who practised sodomy ("kedeshim," called also by the Greeks &#954;&#965;&#957;&#945;&#943;&#948;&#959;&#953;, Deut. xxiii. 19 [A. V. 18]; compare ib. 18 [17] and Rev. xxii. 15; see Driver ad loc.), . . .(see "C. I. S." i., No. 86).

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=415&letter=D

Jewish Encyclopedia - Chastity

(e) The unnatural crimes against chastity, sodomy and pederasty, prevalent in heathendom, were strictly prohibited (Lev. xviii. 22, 23; xx. 13, 15, 16; Deut. xxvii. 21).

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=386&letter=C

Jewish Encyclopedia - DIDACHE -

Dependence upon Jewish Custom.


2: "Thou shalt not commit adultery" (Ex. xx. 14). (This includes: "Thou shalt not commit sodomy nor fornication.") "Thou shalt not steal" (Ex. xx. 15). . . .

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=341&letter=D

Jewish Encyclopedia - Crime

In three cases the person on the point of committing a crime may be killed: where he pursues a neighbor in order to kill him; where he pursues a male to commit sodomy;

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=301&letter=L

Jewish Encyclopedia - The 613 Commandments,: 3347-53.

Adultery, sodomy, etc. Lev. Xviii. 7, 14, 20, 22, 23.

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=689&letter=C
The following citations document the interpretation by contemporary orthodox Judaism.
"We Can't Legitimate Homosexuality Halakhically" (USCJ Review, Spring 2004): Joel Roth

The two verses in the book of (Leviticus (18:22 and 20:13) which deal with homosexuality are really quite clear, despite the efforts of some to call their clarity into question. (Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13 absolutely forbid homosexual intercourse between males. The Rabbis, in the Sifra (Aharei Mot 9:8), also understand the Torah to forbid lesbianism. The Torah’s prohibitions, let it be clear, are against actions, like male homosexual intercourse, not against fantasies or attractions.

The Torah and the Rabbis do not distinguish between types of homosexuals in any way... The Rabbis were well able to conceive of monogamous and loving relationships between members of the same sex, and I quote in my paper the texts that prove this beyond reasonable question. But their words cannot possibly be read to imply that such monogamous or loving gay relationships are in a different halakhic [Jewish legal] category than any other relationships between members of the same sex. The prohibition is clear and total.”​

http://www.uscj.org/POINTRoth6331.html

Naomi Grossman, freelance journalist, states in her April 2001 article in Moment Magazine, "The Gay Orthodox Undergound":

"The Torah strictly forbids homosexual sex, and rabbis have consistently upheld that prohibition through the ages... The prohibition against homosexual sex comes from Leviticus: 'Do not lie with a male as one lies with a woman; it is an abhorrence' (18:22). In biblical times, the punishment for violating that code was clear. 'If a man lies with a male as one lies with a woman, the two of them have done an abhorrent thing; they shall be put to death -— their bloodguilt is upon them' (Leviticus 20:13). The Talmud extends the prohibition to lesbian sex [Hilchot Issurei Bi'ah 21:8]."

Official Orthodoxy makes no distinction between the sex act, which the Torah flatly prohibits, and homosexuality as a sexual identity.
"Homosexuality is not a state of being in traditional Judaism; it's an act," Freundel says. "Desires are … not relevant."​

http://members.aol.com/gayjews/moment.html
The Talmud leaves yet just an "interpretation", and that is not the end-all or be-all of historical factual data here!

FACT: There is not one condemnation of homosexuality as one&#8217;s innate sexual constitution in the Scriptures. In fact, any reputable Bible scholar will tell you that when the original manuscripts were written in the languages of Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek, in none of these languages did the word "homosexual," or any viable translation of the word, exist.

http://www.opendoorcenter.com/myths_&_facts.htm
 
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OllieFranz

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You made the claim, you back it up.

So is this just a quibble? Or do you actualy have counter-examples?

Still, "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." And even though I do not feel that this claim is extraordinary, direct evidence is a bit light.

So I did an Internet search for "conversion therapy success" and looked at the first 100 hits. 77 were sites climing that the programs are failures, and some of them went further to claim that they do irreparable harm. 23 of them were for sites about treatments for other conditions that just happened to have the three words in close proximity. None - not one - claimed that the program works.

Out of 100 hits, you'd expect at least one "positive" hit, even if it was just an individual's blog with anecdotal evidence.

One of first hits reported on a study which looked at earlier published studies and at information published by some of the programs themselves.

It mentioned the difficulty in establishing an average success rate because the standards used in the various reports were not the same, and in a couple of cases important primary data was unavailabe.

The best estimate that they could come up with was a success rate between 0 and 0.5% - 5 or less people helped for every thousand who join the program.

I dont have enough posts on CF to post links, but you can find the summary that I found of the study on the religioustolerencedotorg website. The flename of the page is hom_exod1dothtm

Yes, it is a "tolerance" website. Yes it is a summary. But it does inclde links to the information if you wish to examine it.
 
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Der Alte

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[SIZE=-1]The Talmud leaves yet just an "interpretation", and that is not the end-all or be-all of historical factual data here!

FACT: There is not one condemnation of homosexuality as one’s innate sexual constitution in the Scriptures. In fact, any reputable Bible scholar will tell you that when the original manuscripts were written in the languages of Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek, in none of these languages did the word "homosexual," or any viable translation of the word, exist.[/SIZE]

What do you think the Talmud scholars were if not "reputable Bible scholars?" Of which you got NONE, ZERO, NADA!

You, and all your copy/paste homosexual websites, are proven wrong, dead wrong by ALL competent Jewish Bible scholars for the past 3000 years.
Jewish Encyclopedia- The Talmud - Its Authority.

After the completion of the Talmud as a work of literature, it exercised a twofold influence as a historical factor in the history of Judaism and its followers, not only in regard to the guidance and formulation of religious life and thought, but also with respect to the awakening and development of intellectual activity. As a document of religion the Talmud acquired that authority which was due to it as the written embodiment of the ancient tradition, and it fulfilled the task which the men of the Great Assembly set for the representatives of the tradition when they said, "Make a hedge for the Torah" (Ab. i. 2). Those who professed Judaism felt no doubt that the Talmud was equal to the Bible as a source of instruction and decision in problems of religion, and every effort to set forth religious teachings and duties was based on it; so that even the great systematic treatise of Maimonides, which was intended to supersede the Talmud, only led to a more thorough study of it. In like manner, the Shul&#7717;an 'Aruk of Joseph Caro, which achieved greater practical results than the Mishneh Torah, of Maimonides, owed its authority to the fact that it was recognized as the most convenient codification of the teachings of the Talmud; while the treatises on the philosophy of religion which strove as early as the time of Saadia to harmonize the truths of Judaism with the results of independent thinking referred in all possible cases to the authority of the Talmud, upon which they could easily draw for a confirmation of their theses and arguments. The wealth of moral instruction contained in the Talmud exercised a profound influence upon the ethics and ideals of Judaism. Despite all this, however, the authority enjoyed by it did not lessen the authority of the Bible, which continued to exercise its influence as the primal source of religious and ethical instruction and edification even while the Talmud ruled supreme over religious practise, preserving and fostering in the Diaspora, for many centuries and under most unfavorable external conditions, the spirit of deep religion and strict morality.

http://bible.tmtm.com/wiki/TALMUD_(Jewish_Encyclopedia)
 
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OllieFranz

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Der Alter and davedjy:

You've obviously been going around on your issue for a while. I assume that there are other threads where you can continue that discussion. Otherwise people will lose track of why I started this thread, and I may never get anyone to look at my question and give a straight answer.

If 1 Corinthians 10:13 promises a "way of escape" from homosexuality, then what is it?
 
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Der Alte

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[SIZE=-1]It is my understanding that we are born into (Original)Sin. That we have a Sin(ful) Nature and because of this, none of us can live a sin-free life without God's grace, Jesus redemption, and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. [The parenthases above are because different Christian traditions sometimes use slightly different terms. I don't want this discussion to be derailed on such a minor point as using the"wrong" one.]

But once we accept the free gift of salvation, we can call upon the promise: "No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it." [1 Cor 10:13 NASB]

The working of this promise can be seen even in such pale imitations of Christian fellowship ministries as Alcoholics Anonymous and similar programs. The don't promise salvation. In fact they admit that they can do nothing for the condition - that it's an "incurable disease." [We know that it is just the most obvious manifestation of the Sin Nature, and in Christians the Holy Spirit is working to change it.] Despite this, they do have a fairly decent success rate in terms of changing behavior for the better.
. . .
Perhaps because this is not the kind of "way of escape" provided for this particular problem. The sex drive is one of the strongest urges humans experience, and rightly so. It is a gift of God, to ensure the propegation of the human race and the strength of the family.Because of this strength, there are temptations to misuse God's gift.

What does God say is the proper "way of escape from the lustful temptations that lead to fornication and adultery?[/SIZE]
. . .
Origen de Principiis Book III [a.d. 185-254.]

If, then, the flesh lust against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh, we have occasionally to wrestle against flesh and blood, i.e., as being men, and walking according to the flesh, and not capable of being tempted by greater than human temptations; since it is said of us, "There hath no temptation taken you, but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able."278 For as the presidents of the public games do not allow the competitors to enter the lists indiscriminately or fortuitously, but after a careful examination, pairing in a most impartial consideration either of size or age, this individual with that-boys, e.g., with boys, men with men, who are nearly related to each other either in age or strength; so also must we understand the procedure of divine providence, which arranges on most impartial principles all who descend into the struggles of this human life, according to the nature of each individual's power, which is known only to Him who alone beholds the hearts of men: so that one individual fights against one temptation of the flesh,279 another against a second; one is exposed to its influence for so long a period of time, another only for so long; one is tempted by the flesh to this or that indulgence, another to one of a different kind; one has to resist this or that hostile power, another has to combat two or three at the same time; or at one time this hostile influence, at another that; at some particular date having to resist one enemy, and at another a different one; being, after the performance of certain acts, exposed to one set of enemies, after others to a second. And observe whether some such state of things be not indicated by the language of the apostle: "God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above what ye are able,"280 i.e., each one is tempted in proportion to the amount of his strength or power of resistance.281

file:///C:/Program Files/ECATENA/fathers2/ANF-04/anf04-47.htm#P7097_1554279

 
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