No one sang of futurism, historically

[Interplanner]

Sometimes futurists (those who believe quite a bit of literal fulfillment of prophecy about Israel is forthcoming) say that they were the predominant belief all through church history.

I recently went through lyrics and classifications of several hymns about the Res and found the following:

"The Strife is Over"
Latin hymn, 1695
This hymn features all the victories of the resurrection for the believer and for the world if they would believe. Victory over sin, death and hell. There is no reference to anything forthcoming in Israel.

"Come, You Faithful, Raise the Strain"
by John of Damascus, 8th cent.
All the same as above, with an invitation to Jerusalem to join in it.

"I Know That My Redeemer Lives" (not from Handel's "Messiah")
Cologne, Germany, 1623
Slightly less emphasis on benefits to all, more emphasis on the individual ("He lives to raise me from the grace and me eternally to save" instead of us). No reference to future things in Israel.

"The Day of Resurrection"
also by John of Damascus
Emphasis on the true Passover, the Passover of God; the believer is marked by being able to "hear" the victory song and hear the host of heaven singing "All hail" to Christ. This Passover emphasis might relate to those who think all the church did was glom onto pagan beliefs. Here is the references to the Passover but nothing futurist.

If people did think of futurism through church history, they didn't sing about it. I don't think there is near as much excitement to be had about such future events if they are to happen, half of them tragic, as there is already in the Res!

 

[snumerouno]

The doctrines of futurism: dispensationalism, premillinialism, and pre-trib rapture were clearly not taught in the early Church. Not only can you not find those doctrines in any hymns or songs but they are also literally non-existent in the creeds of the early Church.

 

[Biblewriter]

Sometimes futurists (those who believe quite a bit of literal fulfillment of prophecy about Israel is forthcoming) say that they were the predominant belief all through church history.

I recently went through lyrics and classifications of several hymns about the Res and found the following:

"The Strife is Over"
Latin hymn, 1695
This hymn features all the victories of the resurrection for the believer and for the world if they would believe. Victory over sin, death and hell. There is no reference to anything forthcoming in Israel.

"Come, You Faithful, Raise the Strain"
by John of Damascus, 8th cent.
All the same as above, with an invitation to Jerusalem to join in it.

"I Know That My Redeemer Lives" (not from Handel's "Messiah")
Cologne, Germany, 1623
Slightly less emphasis on benefits to all, more emphasis on the individual ("He lives to raise me from the grace and me eternally to save" instead of us). No reference to future things in Israel.

"The Day of Resurrection"
also by John of Damascus
Emphasis on the true Passover, the Passover of God; the believer is marked by being able to "hear" the victory song and hear the host of heaven singing "All hail" to Christ. This Passover emphasis might relate to those who think all the church did was glom onto pagan beliefs. Here is the references to the Passover but nothing futurist.

If people did think of futurism through church history, they didn't sing about it. I don't think there is near as much excitement to be had about such future events if they are to happen, half of them tragic, as there is already in the Res!

I have never heard even one futurist ever make such a claim as you are trying to debunk. The only ones who claim that their doctrine is what the church always taught are the amils, the preterists, and the post-tribbers. And the falsehood of all these claims has been repeatedly disproved here in this sub-forum.

 

[riverrat]

I have never heard even one futurist ever make such a claim as you are trying to debunk. The only ones who claim that their doctrine is what the church always taught are the amils, the preterists, and the post-tribbers. And the falsehood of all these claims has been repeatedly disproved here in this sub-forum.

Interplanner's screen name should actually be "Interplannerthestrawman"

 

[Biblewriter]

The doctrines of futurism: dispensationalism, premillinialism, and pre-trib rapture were clearly not taught in the early Church. Not only can you not find those doctrines in any hymns or songs but they are also literally non-existent in the creeds of the early Church.

Based entirely on comments I have personally found in the works of early Church writers, I can assuredly say that:

A future coming of a personal Antichrist was taught at least by Barnabas, Justyn Martyr, Irenaeus, Hyppolytus, Tertullian, Commodianus, Cyprian of Carthage, John of Damascus, Cyril of Jerusalem, John of Chrysostom, Jerome, and Augustine of Hippo.

A belief in a future ten king dissolution of the Roman Empire was taught at least by Justyn Martyr, Irenaeus, Hyppolytus, Tertullian, Commodianus, Lactantius, and Jerome.

A belief in a future fulfillment of Daniel's seventieth week was explicitly taught at least by Barnabas, Justyn Martyr, Irenaeus and Hyppolytus.

A rapture before the great tribulation was explicitly taught at least by Irenaeus and an unknown author that modern scholars call Pseudo-Ephraem, and was apparently taught by Victornius.

And Barnabas, Tertullian, Caius, and Dionysius wrote attacking the doctrines of some in their days who were saying that in a future day the nation of Israel would be restored.

Futurism was, in actual fact, so all-prevalent in the early church that in the fifth century Jerome wrote, "We should therefore concur with the traditional interpretation of all the commentators of the Christian Church, that at the end of the world, when the Roman Empire is to be destroyed, there shall be ten kings who will partition the Roman world amongst themselves. Then an insignificant eleventh king will arise, who will overcome three of the ten kings... Then after they have been slain, the seven other kings will bow their necks to the victor." (Jerome’s comments on Daniel 7:8, as found in “Jerome’s Commentary on Daniel,” pg. 77, translated by Gleason L. Archer, Jr., published by Baker Book House, Grand Rapids, 1958.)

So contrary to what you have said, futurism was unquestionably the standard doctrine of the church for its first few hundred years, and much dispensational doctrine was contained in their ministry, including a future restoration of Israel and a rapture before the tribulation.

Not even one of these claims is based on anything someone else told me. I have actual ancient quotations (with references) to back up every detail of every one of these claims stored on my personal computer.

 

[Serpentslayer]

Based entirely on comments I have personally found in the works of early Church writers, I can assuredly say that:

A future coming of a personal Antichrist was taught at least by Barnabas, Justyn Martyr, Irenaeus, Hyppolytus, Tertullian, Commodianus, Cyprian of Carthage, John of Damascus, Cyril of Jerusalem, John of Chrysostom, Jerome, and Augustine of Hippo.

A belief in a future ten king dissolution of the Roman Empire was taught at least by Justyn Martyr, Irenaeus, Hyppolytus, Tertullian, Commodianus, Lactantius, and Jerome.

A belief in a future fulfillment of Daniel's seventieth week was explicitly taught at least by Barnabas, Justyn Martyr, Irenaeus and Hyppolytus.

A rapture before the great tribulation was explicitly taught at least by Irenaeus and an unknown author that modern scholars call Pseudo-Ephraem, and was apparently taught by Victornius.

And Barnabas, Tertullian, Caius, and Dionysius wrote attacking the doctrines of some in their days who were saying that in a future day the nation of Israel would be restored.

Futurism was, in actual fact, so all-prevalent in the early church that in the fifth century Jerome wrote, "We should therefore concur with the traditional interpretation of all the commentators of the Christian Church, that at the end of the world, when the Roman Empire is to be destroyed, there shall be ten kings who will partition the Roman world amongst themselves. Then an insignificant eleventh king will arise, who will overcome three of the ten kings... Then after they have been slain, the seven other kings will bow their necks to the victor." (Jerome’s comments on Daniel 7:8, as found in “Jerome’s Commentary on Daniel,” pg. 77, translated by Gleason L. Archer, Jr., published by Baker Book House, Grand Rapids, 1958.)

So contrary to what you have said, futurism was unquestionably the standard doctrine of the church for its first few hundred years, and much dispensational doctrine was contained in their ministry, including a future restoration of Israel and a rapture before the tribulation.

Not even one of these claims is based on anything someone else told me. I have actual ancient quotations (with references) to back up every detail of every one of these claims stored on my personal computer.

References please and we will have them checked out and confirmed.

Especially the part where you state a future restoration of Israel and a rapture before the tribulation.

We have to determine and rule out that these teachings are not in fact heretical doctrine that were contended with by the true Apostolic fathers.

 

[Bible2]

snumerouno said in post 2:

The doctrines of futurism: dispensationalism, premillinialism, and pre-trib rapture were clearly not taught in the early Church.

Futurism per se should be distinguished from dispensationalism. For futurism per se is correct, because the tribulation and 2nd-coming prophecies of Revelation chapters 6 to 19 and Matthew 24 have never been fulfilled. But dispensationalism is mistaken, because all genetic Jews in the church remain members of whichever tribe of Israel they were born into (Romans 11:1, Acts 4:36). And all genetic Gentiles in the church have been grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29), and so have been grafted into its various tribes (cf. Ezekiel 47:21-23). So the entire church is the 12 tribes of Israel (Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10).

This is necessary, for all those in the church are saved only by the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), and the New Covenant is made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34, John 4:22b). John 10:16 refers to the "other sheep" of believers who are Gentiles being brought into "this fold" of Israel, which is the same as the "one fold" of the church (1 Corinthians 12:13, Ephesians 4:4-6, Revelation 21:9,12). A genetic Gentile believer can pray and ask which tribe of Israel he has been grafted into, and he will receive an answer from God, if he asks in faith (cf. Matthew 21:22), without any wavering (cf. James 1:6-7).

Also, all those in the church, no matter whether they're genetic Jews (Acts 22:3) or genetic Gentiles (Romans 16:4b), have become spiritually-circumcised Jews if they've undergone the spiritual circumcision of water-immersion (burial) baptism into Jesus (Romans 2:29, Philippians 3:3, Colossians 2:11-13).

snumerouno said in post 2:

The doctrines of futurism: dispensationalism, premillinialism, and pre-trib rapture were clearly not taught in the early Church.

Premillennialism was the teaching of the early church (see Papias) subsequent to John the apostle's writing-down of the book of Revelation, based on the clear prophecy of Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, which shows that the millennium will occur after Jesus' 2nd coming. Amillennialism was an error that didn't crop up until later. The scriptural truth of premillennialism was recovered in relatively modern times when a significant part of the church became interested again in eschatology, and believers could search the scriptures for themselves and see that premillennialism is true, as opposed to during the centuries when the amillennial RCC hierarchy kept the scriptures from believers and simply told them what to believe.

snumerouno said in post 2:

The doctrines of futurism: dispensationalism, premillinialism, and pre-trib rapture were clearly not taught in the early Church.

Futurism per se should be distinguished from pre-trib rapturism. For post-trib futurism knows the truth that Jesus won't come and gather together (rapture) the church until immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). That's why the marriage of the church doesn't happen until Revelation 19:7, in connection with Jesus' 2nd coming and the bodily resurrection of the church at that time (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16). Matthew 24:30-31 refers to the same 2nd coming of Jesus and gathering together (rapture) of the church as 2 Thessalonians 2:1, which refers to the same 2nd coming of Jesus and catching up together (rapture) of the church as 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17.

Jesus won't return and gather together (rapture) the church until sometime after there's a falling away (an apostasy) in the church, and the Antichrist sits in a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaims himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4, Daniel 11:31,36, Revelation 11:1-2, Revelation 13:4-8), and the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the 3rd Jewish temple (Matthew 24:15-31, Daniel 11:31). For when Jesus returns to gather together (and marry) the church he will destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1,8, Revelation 19:7,20). Before Jesus returns, the church will have to go through the future, literal 3.5 years of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-31).

At Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30), the church will be resurrected and caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31), not to remove the church from the earth (Proverbs 10:30, John 17:15,20), but to take the church only as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

At that meeting, Jesus will judge everyone in the church (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27) by their works (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30). And then Jesus will marry in the clouds the obedient part of the church (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12), those in the church (of all times) who "overcame" to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:26). They will then mount white horses and come back down from the sky (the first heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14) as he defeats the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) and all the world's armies (Revelation 19:15-21). Jesus will then make the marriage supper of Revelation 19:9 for the resurrected and married obedient part of the church in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54). Jesus and the obedient part of the church will then reign on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).

 

[Bible2]

Biblewriter said in post 5:

A future coming of a personal Antichrist was taught at least by Barnabas, Justyn Martyr, Irenaeus, Hyppolytus, Tertullian, Commodianus, Cyprian of Carthage, John of Damascus, Cyril of Jerusalem, John of Chrysostom, Jerome, and Augustine of Hippo.

There will definitely be a future coming of a personal Antichrist. For the man commonly called the Antichrist is the individual "man of sin" (2 Thessalonians 2:3) who will sit in a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaim himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). He's the individual "man" aspect of the "beast" who will come (Revelation 13:18) and bring the world into the worship of Lucifer (the dragon, Satan) and himself (Revelation 13:4,8, Revelation 12:9). He will rule the earth for 3.5 literal years (Revelation 13:5-10, Daniel 7:25, Daniel 12:7), and will have a miracle-working False Prophet (Revelation 19:20, Revelation 16:13), who by amazing, Luciferian miracles (cf. 2 Thessalonians 2:9), such as calling fire down from heaven (Revelation 13:13), will deceive the people of the world into worshipping a speaking (possibly an android) image of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:15), and receiving a mark of the Antichrist's name or gematrial name-number (666) on their right hand or forehead (Revelation 13:16-18). The Antichrist and his False Prophet will ultimately be cast into the lake of fire at Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:20), whereas at that time Satan will be bound in the bottomless pit for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:1-3). None of these things has happened yet.

As you pointed out, the idea of a future, individual-man Antichrist was correctly recognized in the scriptures by the church from early on. Irenaeus (born c. 140 AD) used the term: "speaking of Antichrist, [Paul] says, 'who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped'" (Against Heresies 3:6:5; 2 Thessalonians 2:4); "...by means of the events which shall occur in the time of Antichrist is it shown that he, being an apostate and a robber, is anxious to be adored as God" (Against Heresies 5:25:1; 2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36, Revelation 13:8); "...when this Antichrist shall have devastated all things in this world, he will reign for three years and six months, and sit in the temple at Jerusalem" (Against Heresies 5:30:4b; Revelation 13:5; 2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 7:25, Daniel 12:7); "...the number of the name of the beast ... the name of Antichrist" (Against Heresies 5:30:1; Revelation 13:17c-18).

The gematrial numerical values of the letters in the Antichrist's name will add up to six hundred and sixty-six (Revelation 13:17c-18).

Biblewriter said in post 5:

A belief in a future ten king dissolution of the Roman Empire was taught at least by Justyn Martyr, Irenaeus, Hyppolytus, Tertullian, Commodianus, Lactantius, and Jerome.

Compare Daniel 7, where the first 3 beasts (Daniel 7:3-6) represent the ancient empires of Babylon (lion), Medo-Persia (bear), and Greece (leopard). And the 4th beast, or 4th "king"/"kingdom" (Daniel 7:17,23), represents the ancient Roman Empire. The 10 horns/kings which come out of it (Daniel 7:7,24) could represent 10 major kingdoms/nations today which came out the former territory of the Roman Empire, which consisted not only of Western Europe, but also the Middle East and North Africa. These 10 nations could be Germany, the U.K., France, Italy, Spain, Turkey, Egypt, Iraq, Algeria, and Syria. The 10 part-iron/part-clay toes of Daniel 2:42 could represent the same thing as the 10 horns of Daniel 7:7. The Europeans could be the iron, and the Arabs and Turks could be the clay. In Daniel 2:43, the inability of the iron to mix with the clay could represent how, for example, there are many Turks living in Germany, but they remain separated in ghettoes within German cities. Similarly, there are many Algerians living in France, but they remain separated in ghettoes within French cities.

But despite this social separation, which could endure indefinitely, the people of Western Europe on the one hand, and the people of the Middle East and North Africa on the other, could still one day put aside their political separation and become united into one confederation. For Daniel 2:42 refers to the 10 as a singular "kingdom". The person who brings this about could be the Antichrist. The arising of the "little" horn (Daniel 7:8, Daniel 8:9), which is "diverse" from the 10 major nations (Daniel 7:24), could mean that the Antichrist will arise from a little country.

And the little horn arising from "among" the 10 major nations (Daniel 7:8) could mean that the Antichrist's country's territory used to be part of the Roman Empire. And before that, it was part of one of the 4 Diadochian Greek kingdoms which succeeded the Greek Empire of Alexander the Great (Daniel 8:8-9,21-25). The territory of these 4 kingdoms stretched from Greece over to Iran, and down into Egypt. So the Antichrist could come from the Middle East. He could be an Arab who will come from the little country of Lebanon, from the modern city of Tyre (Ezekiel 28:2; 2 Thessalonians 2:4).

The Antichrist could start out by claiming to be a Baathist. After becoming the leader of Lebanon, he could peacefully gain control of a Baathist confederation of 3 of the 10 major nations (Daniel 7:24): Egypt, "toward the south" of Lebanon (Daniel 8:9), and Iraq and Syria, "toward the east" of Lebanon (Daniel 8:9). This confederation could also include the minor nation of a United Palestine, i.e. a defeated Israel, "the pleasant land" (Daniel 8:9).

This Baathist confederation could be put together in the future by an Iraqi Baathist General who could completely defeat and occupy Israel and Egypt with a huge Iraqi Army (Daniel 11:15-17; in verse 17 the original Hebrew word translated as "daughter" is "bath"), but who could then mysteriously disappear (Daniel 11:19) shortly before the Antichrist arises on the world stage (Daniel 11:21-45). Years later, when the Antichrist gains control over all 10 of the major nations, he could appoint kings over them (Revelation 17:12) who will defer to him (Revelation 17:13), like when Napoleon gained control over different nations, he appointed kings over them who would defer to him.

Biblewriter said in post 5:

A rapture before the great tribulation was explicitly taught at least by Irenaeus and an unknown author that modern scholars call Pseudo-Ephraem, and was apparently taught by Victornius.

Even though in Against Heresies, Book 5, chapter 29, paragraph 1, Irenaeus (or maybe only the translator) uses the words from Matthew 24:21, Irenaeus, in the language of his original manuscript, may have actually quoted, or may have been thinking of, the differently timed, yet similar sounding, Daniel 12:1-3, which refers to the time of the resurrection of the church into immortality at the post-tribulation, 2nd-coming time of the defeat of the Antichrist (Daniel 11:45 to 12:3, cf. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

For Irenaeus connects his quoted "tribulation" reference to the time when "the righteous" will be "crowned with incorruption", i.e. resurrected or changed into incorruptible/immortal bodies. And no people can be called "the righteous" (cf. Romans 3:10) apart from faith in Jesus and his sacrificial blood (Romans 3:25-26), and no people who have that faith are outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6). And the people who will be resurrected (if dead) or changed (if alive) into incorruptible/immortal bodies at Jesus' 2nd coming (when he will defeat the Antichrist, the individual-man aspect of the beast: Revelation 19:20), will be the church (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8).

So in the passage from Irenaeus, the "tribulation" referred to by him could be only Daniel 11:45 to 12:3's post-tribulation, 2nd-coming time of trouble which will come upon the Antichrist and all the world's armies at the 2nd-coming battle (Revelation 19:11-21, Revelation 16:14; 2 Thessalonians 2:8), just prior to which battle the church will be resurrected (if dead) or changed (if alive) into immortality (1 Corinthians 15:51-53) and then caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1) into the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

Biblewriter said in post 5:

A rapture before the great tribulation was explicitly taught at least by Irenaeus and an unknown author that modern scholars call Pseudo-Ephraem, and was apparently taught by Victornius.

When the unknown writer of the document called "Pseudo Ephraem" says that "all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation" (Section 2), he doesn't mean prior to the tribulation of Matthew 24. For that would contradict the scriptural teaching that the elect are gathered immediately "after the tribulation" of Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31). Also, the writer of Pseudo Ephraem mistakenly thought that the first half of Matthew 24's tribulation had already occurred by his time, and that all that was left to happen was the time of the Antichrist: "Already there have been hunger and plagues, violent movements of nations and signs, which have been predicted by the Lord [cf. Matthew 24:6-7], they have already been fulfilled (consummated), and there is not other which remains, except the advent of the wicked one [cf. Matthew 24:15-22; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8]" (Section 2).

And the writer of Pseudo Ephraem shows that the church will have to go through that time of the Antichrist: "those who wander through the deserts, fleeing from the face of the serpent [cf. Revelation 12:14], bend their knees to God, just as lambs to the udders of their mothers, being sustained by the salvation of the Lord, and while wandering in states of desertion, they eat herbs" (Section 8). There's no salvation apart from being a Christian (John 3:36, John 14:6, Acts 4:12), and there are no Christians outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6). The writer of Pseudo Ephraem again in Section 9 shows that the church will have to go through the time of the Antichrist: "when this inevitability has overwhelmed all people, just and unjust, the just, so that they may be found good by their Lord". No one is just or found good (Romans 3:10) apart from faith in Jesus Christ and his sacrificial blood (Romans 3:25-26), and no one who has this faith is outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6).

And in Section 4, the writer of Pseudo Ephraem shows that some in the church will die during the time of the Antichrist: "In those days people shall not be buried, neither Christian, nor heretic, neither Jew, nor pagan, because of fear and dread there is not one who buries them; because all people, while they are fleeing, ignore them". So in the latter half of Section 2, when the writer of Pseudo Ephraem says "all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation", he doesn't mean prior to Matthew 24's tribulation. What he means is partially found in the first half of Section 2: "Why therefore do we not reject every care of earthly actions and prepare ourselves for the meeting of the Lord Christ, so that he may draw us from the confusion, which overwhelms all the world". What the writer means by "the confusion" (and so also by "the tribulation") is explained in Section 10: "Then Christ shall come and the enemy shall be thrown into confusion, and the Lord shall destroy him by the spirit of his mouth".

So the writer of Pseudo Ephraem is referring to the confusion and destruction of the Antichrist and all the world's armies at the 2nd-coming battle (Revelation 19:11-21, Revelation 16:14; 2 Thessalonians 2:8), just prior to which battle the church will be caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1) into the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17) and to be married to Jesus (Revelation 19:7).

Biblewriter said in post 5:

And Barnabas, Tertullian, Caius, and Dionysius wrote attacking the doctrines of some in their days who were saying that in a future day the nation of Israel would be restored.

The rebudding of the fig tree (Matthew 24:32) can refer to the 1948 reestablishment of Israel, just as Jesus' cursing of the fig tree (Matthew 21:19) was symbolic of his curse on unbelieving, Old Covenant Israel (Matthew 21:43). The Israel that was reestablished in 1948 is the same Old Covenant Israel that Jesus cursed at his first coming, for it still rejects Jesus and still considers itself to be under the Old Covenant. This Israel merely "putting forth leaves" again (Matthew 24:32) in 1948 was nothing more than a restoration to what the fig tree in Matthew 21:19,43 had been before it was cursed forever by Jesus and then destroyed in 70 AD: a tree with leaves, but without any fruit. And the unbelieving, Old Covenant Israel that was reestablished in 1948 may never bear fruit, for it could be destroyed before Jesus' 2nd coming, during a future war, by a Baathist army, just as it had been destroyed in 70 AD by a Roman army.

 

[Serpentslayer]

References please and we will have them checked out and confirmed.

Especially the part where you state a future restoration of Israel and a rapture before the tribulation.

We have to determine and rule out that these teachings are not in fact heretical doctrine that were contended with by the true Apostolic fathers.

You made some bold statements regarding what the early church believed. I am still waiting for your references, please.

 

[snumerouno]

You made some bold statements regarding what the early church believed. I am still waiting for your references, please.

As am I.

 

[Biblewriter]

References please and we will have them checked out and confirmed.

Especially the part where you state a future restoration of Israel and a rapture before the tribulation.

We have to determine and rule out that these teachings are not in fact heretical doctrine that were contended with by the true Apostolic fathers.

You made some bold statements regarding what the early church believed. I am still waiting for your references, please.

As am I.

These were not "bold statements," but hard facts. I will produce a few quotations from some of the very oldest writers. Many more are available.

Before we begin this examination, let it be perfectly clear that I consider it wholly unacceptable to attribute any authority whatsoever to these documents, other than their historical value. It is serious bad doctrine to claim that the writings of any man, or of any group of men, are authoritative. Our only true and proper authority is the word of God itself, the Bible.

Let us look, for instance, at the sequence of coming events that Irenaeus saw in the scriptures.

“In a still clearer light has John, in the Apocalypse, indicated to the Lord’s disciples what shall happen in the last times, and concerning the ten kings who shall then arise, among whom the empire which now rules [the earth] shall be partitioned. He teaches us what the ten horns shall be which were seen by Daniel, telling us that thus it had been said to him: ‘And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, who have received no kingdom as yet, but shall receive power as if kings one hour with the beast. These have one mind, and give their strength and power to the beast. These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them, because He is the Lord of lords and the King of kings.’ It is manifest, therefore, that of these [potentates], he who is to come shall slay three, and subject the remainder to his power, and that he shall be himself the eighth among them. And they shall lay Babylon waste, and burn her with fire, and shall give their kingdom to the beast, and put the Church to flight. After that they shall be destroyed by the coming of our Lord.” (Against Heresies, by Irenaeus, book V, chapter XXVI, section 1)

“Those nations however, who did not of themselves raise up their eyes unto heaven, nor returned thanks to their Maker, nor wished to behold the light of truth, but who were like blind mice concealed in the depths of ignorance, the word justly reckons ‘as waste water from a sink, and as the turning-weight of a balance—in fact, as nothing;’ so far useful and serviceable to the just, as stubble conduces towards the growth of the wheat, and its straw, by means of combustion, serves for working gold. And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, ‘There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.’ For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.” (Against Heresies, by Irenaeus, book V, chapter XXIX, section 1)

“But when this Antichrist shall have devastated all things in this world, he will reign for three years and six months, and sit in the temple at Jerusalem; and then the Lord will come from heaven in the clouds, in the glory of the Father, sending this man and those who follow him into the lake of fire; but bringing in for the righteous the times of the kingdom, that is, the rest, the hallowed seventh day; and restoring to Abraham the promised inheritance, in which kingdom the Lord declared, that ‘many coming from the east and from the west should sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.’” (Against Heresies, by Irenaeus, book V, chapter XXX, section 3)

“For all these and other words were unquestionably spoken in reference to the resurrection of the just, which takes place after the coming of Antichrist, and the destruction of all nations under his rule; in [the times of] which [resurrection] the righteous shall reign in the earth, waxing stronger by the sight of the Lord: and through Him they shall become accustomed to partake in the glory of God the Father, and shall enjoy in the kingdom intercourse and communion with the holy angels, and union with spiritual beings; those whom the Lord shall find in the flesh, awaiting Him from heaven, and who have suffered tribulation, as well as escaped the hands of the Wicked one. For it is in reference to them that the prophet says: ‘And those that are left shall multiply upon the earth,’ And Jeremiah the prophet has pointed out, that as many believers as God has prepared for this purpose, to multiply those left upon earth, should both be under the rule of the saints to minister to this Jerusalem, and that [His] kingdom shall be in it, saying, ‘Look around Jerusalem towards the east, and behold the joy which comes to thee from God Himself. Behold, thy sons shall come whom thou hast sent forth: they shall come in a band from the east even unto the west, by the word of that Holy One, rejoicing in that splendour which is from thy God.’” (Against Heresies, by Irenaeus, book V, chapter XXXV, section 1)

“And in the Apocalypse John saw this new [Jerusalem] descending upon the new earth. For after the times of the kingdom, he says, ‘I saw a great white throne, and Him who sat upon it, from whose face the earth fled away, and the heavens; and there was no more place for them.’ And he sets forth, too, the things connected with the general resurrection and the judgment, mentioning ‘the dead, great and small.’ ‘The sea,’ he says, ‘gave up the dead which it had in it, and death and hell delivered up the dead that they contained; and the books were opened. Moreover,’ he says, ‘the book of life was opened, and the dead were judged out of those things that were written in the books, according to their works; and death and hell were sent into the lake of fire, the second death.’ Now this is what is called Gehenna, which the Lord styled eternal fire. ‘And if any one,’ it is said, ‘was not found written in the book of life, he was sent into the lake of fire.’ And after this, he says, ‘I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and earth have passed away; also there was no more sea. And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from heaven, as a bride adorned for her husband.’ ‘And I heard,’ it is said, ‘a great voice from the throne, saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them; and they shall be His people, and God Himself shall be with them as their God. And He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and death shall be no more, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain, because the former things have passed away.’ Isaiah also declares the very same: ‘For there shall be a new heaven and a new earth; and there shall be no remembrance of the former, neither shall the heart think about them, but they shall find in it joy and exultation.’ Now this is what has been said by the apostle: ‘For the fashion of this world passeth away.’ To the same purpose did the Lord also declare, ‘Heaven and earth shall pass away.’ When these things, therefore, pass away above the earth, John, the Lord’s disciple, says that the new Jerusalem above shall [then] descend, as a bride adorned for her husband; and that this is the tabernacle of God, in which God will dwell with men. Of this Jerusalem the former one is an image—that Jerusalem of the former earth in which the righteous are disciplined beforehand for incorruption and prepared for salvation.” (Against Heresies, by Irenaeus, book V, chapter XXXV, section 2)

In this sequence of quotations, we see the following sequence clearly spelled out:

1. In the last times the Roman Empire shall be partitioned among ten kings.

2. One of these ten kings will slay three of the others, subject the rest to his power, and put the Church to flight.

3. When the church is “suddenly caught up from” the nations there will be great tribulation which will be “the last contest of the righteous.”

4. The Antichrist will reign for three years and six months.

5. The Antichrist and his followers will be destroyed when the Lord comes in the clouds.

6. The just will be resurrected after the coming of Antichrist.

7. The righteous will reign in the earth.

8. The survivors of the tribulation will serve in the kingdom and multiply on the earth.

9. After the kingdom will come the general resurrection and judgement.

10. After the judgment will come the new heavens and new earth.

This is exactly the order of events foreseen by Dispensationalists of the persuasion that is now called the “mid-tribulation rapture.”

Nor is this the only dispensational doctrine to be found in these ancient documents. Several more of them are referred to in the following statements by Irenaeus:

“The Lord also spoke as follows to those who did not believe in Him: ‘I have come in my Father’s name, and ye have not received Me: when another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive,’ calling Antichrist ‘the other,’ because he is alienated from the Lord. This is also the unjust judge, whom the Lord mentioned as one ‘who feared not God, neither regarded man,’ to whom the widow fled in her forgetfulness of God,—that is, the earthly Jerusalem,—to be avenged of her adversary. Which also he shall do in the time of his kingdom: he shall remove his kingdom into that [city], and shall sit in the temple of God, leading astray those who worship him, as if he were Christ.” (Against Heresies, by Irenaeus, book V, chapter XXV, section 4)

“Moreover, he (the apostle) has also pointed out this which I have shown in many ways, that the temple in Jerusalem was made by the direction of the true God. For the apostle himself, speaking in his own person, distinctly called it the temple of God. Now I have shown in the third book, that no one is termed God by the apostles when speaking for themselves, except Him who truly is God, the Father of our Lord, by whose directions the temple which is at Jerusalem was constructed for those purposes which I have already mentioned; in which [temple] the enemy shall sit, endeavouring to show himself as Christ, as the Lord also declares: ‘But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, which has been spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let him that readeth understand), then let those who are in Judea flee into the mountains; and he who is upon the house-top, let him not come down to take anything out of his house: for there shall then be great hardship, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, nor ever shall be.’” (Against Heresies, by Irenaeus, book V, chapter XXV, section 2)

“And then he points out the time that his tyranny shall last, during which the saints shall be put to flight, they who offer a pure sacrifice unto God: ‘And in the midst of the week,’ he says, ‘the sacrifice and the libation shall be taken away, and the abomination of desolation [shall be brought] into the temple: even unto the consummation of the time shall the desolation be complete.’Now three years and six months constitute the half-week.” (Against Heresies, by Irenaeus, book V, chapter XXV, section 4)

In this series of statements, we notice that in the first of them Irenaeus clearly says that the Antichrist “shall remove his kingdom into” [“the earthly Jerusalem”] “and shall sit in the temple of God, leading astray those who worship him, as if he were Christ.” In the second he insists that “the temple which is at Jerusalem” is the place “in which [temple] the enemy shall sit, endeavouring to show himself as Christ.” And then he quotes Daniel 9:27, “‘And in the midst of the week,’ he says, ‘the sacrifice and the libation shall be taken away.’” So in the last of these statements he very clearly refers to Daniel’s seventieth week as the week in which the Antichrist will come.

Thus we see in these statements of Irenaeus each of the following concepts:

1. That in the future there will again be a temple in Jerusalem.
2. That this future temple will be “the temple of God.”
3. That this future Jewish temple is where the Antichrist will sit as God.
4. And that Daniel’s seventieth week remains to be fulfilled in the future.

Each of these concepts is unquestionably an element of Dispensationalism.

Hyppolytus expanded upon this concept of a future fulfillment of Daniel’s seventieth week, saying:

“For after sixty-two weeks was fulfilled and after Christ has come and the Gospel has been preached in every place, times having been spun out, the end remains one week away, in which Elijah and Enoch shall be present and in its half the abomination of desolation, the Antichrist, shall appear who threatens desolation of the world. After he comes, sacrifice and drink offering, which now in every way is offered by the nations to God, shall be taken away.” (Commentary on Daniel, by Hyppolytus, book 4, 35.3)

Hyppolytus returned to this subject some pages later, writing:

“Just as also he spoke to Daniel, “And he shall establish a covenant with many for one week and it will be that in the half of the week he shall take away my sacrifice and drink offering,” so that the one week may be shown as divided into two, after the two witnesses will have preached for three and a half years, the Antichrist will wage war against the saints the remainder of the week and will desolate all the world so that what was spoken may be fulfilled, “And they will give the abomination of desolation one thousand two hundred ninety days. Blessed is he who endures to Christ and reaches the one thousand three hundred thirty-five days!” (Commentary on Daniel, by Hyppolytus, book 4, 50.2)

In the fourth century Eusebius wrote his famous “Church History.” There he said of Papias:

“For he appears to have been of very limited understanding, as one can see from his discourses. But it was due to him that so many of the Church Fathers after him adopted a like opinion, urging in their own support the antiquity of the man; as for instance Irenæus and any one else that may have proclaimed similar views.” (The Church History, by Eusebius, book III, chapter XXXIX, section 13.)

So we clearly see that according to Eusebius, Irenaeus and “many of the Church Fathers after him adopted a like opinion” (to that of Papias.) Since we have only a few fragments of the writings of Papias, and we have only a few examples from these “many” other early writers, the words of Irenaeus evidently represent an entire genre of ancient literature. So it is fair to surmise that the dispensational concepts espoused by Irenaeus are representative of the doctrine of “many” other early Christian writers.

 

[Biblewriter]

Especially the part where you state a future restoration of Israel and a rapture before the tribulation.

Irenaeus wrote of the evil of the nations and then said, "And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, 'There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.'For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption'" (Against Heresies, Book V, Chapter XXIX, section 2.)

We need to notice the following elements in this short statement:

First, the church will be "suddenly caught up."

Second, after the church is "Suddenly caught up," "There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be." Lest anyone claim that this is not specifically stated to be after “the church is "suddenly caught up," please note that the grammatical construction (when) -- (one event takes place) -- (a second event takes place) has two possible meanings. It either means that the two events will take place at the same time or it means that the second event will take place after the first event. But it cannot mean that the second event takes place before the first event. In this case the first event is clearly instantaneous and the second event will obviously consume a significant period of time. So it is unreasonable to argue that the writer’s intention was anything other than to state that this “tribulation” would take place after the church is “suddenly caught up.”

Third, this period of tribulation is specifically called "the last contest of the righteous." and it explicitly says of these righteous in this particular contest, "in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption."

It is clearly dispensational doctrine that after the church is "suddenly caught up" there will be a righteous remnant that will undergo a great trial of faith, and that, when they triumph in this trial, they will be crowned with righteousness. Many dispensationalists differentiate between the “tribulation” (the entire seven year period) and the “great tribulation” (the last three and half years.) This appears to be the position held by Irenaeus.

Next we come to a late third century “Commentary on the Apocalypse of the Blessed John,” by Victorinus, which said, under the heading, “From the Sixth Chapter,” it said, “14. ‘And the heaven withdrew as a scroll that is rolled up.’] For the heaven to be rolled away, that is, that the Church shall be taken away. ‘And every mountain and the islands were moved from their places.’] Mountains and islands removed from their places intimate that in the last persecution all men departed from their places; that is, that the good will be removed, seeking to avoid the persecution.
Then, under the heading “From the Fifteenth Chapter,” it said “1. ‘And I saw another great and wonderful sign, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is completed the indignation of God.’] For the wrath of God always strikes the obstinate people with seven plagues, that is, perfectly, as it is said in Leviticus; and these shall be in the last time, when the Church shall have gone out of the midst.”

These statements are plainly pre-tribulational. For he foresaw the church “taken away” and the good removed, before the time of the Antichrist, and he explicitly mentioned that “the Church shall have gone out of the midst” during the seven last plagues of Revelation 15.

But in addition to these critically important very early comments, we have absolute proof that the claim that the church had always taught the doctrine of the post tribulation rapture before a few hundred years ago is completely incorrect. This proof is found in a document, whose age and author is unknown, but which is known to have been in Church libraries before the year 800. Based on events referred to in this document as impending, various scholars have estimated its date from as early as 373 to as late as 627. As scholars do not believe the unknown author could have been the famous Ephraem the Syrian, (who is also known as Ephraem of Nisbis) they call this unknown author Pseudo-Ephraem. This document says,

“Why therefore do we not reject every care of earthly actions and prepare ourselves for the meeting of the Lord Christ, so that he may draw us from the confusion, which overwhelms all the world? Believe you me, dearest brother, because the coming (advent) of the Lord is nigh, believe you me, because the end of the world is at hand, believe me, because it is the very last time. Or do you not believe unless you see with your eyes? See to it that this sentence be not fulfilled among you of the prophet who declares: ‘Woe to those who desire to see the day of the Lord!’ For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins.” (“On the Last Times, the Antichrist, and the End of the World,” author unknown but called Pseudo-Ephraem, section 2. - from “The Byzantine Apocalyptic Tradition,” by Paul J. Alexander, Berkeley: University of California Press, 1985, 2.10. Cited there from “Abhandlungen und Predigten aus den zwei letzten Jahrhunderten des kirchlichen Altertums und dem Anfang des Mittelaters,” C. P. Caspari, ed. Briefe, Christiania, 1890, 208-20.)

The concept of a future blessing for the nation of Israel was also clearly taught, although not in even one document that was preserved. We know this doctrine was taught at that time, not from documents teaching it, but from documents condemning those who taught it. The first of these is the first comment by Barnabas.

“Ye ought therefore to understand. And this also I further beg of you, as being one of you, and loving you both individually and collectively more than my own soul, to take heed now to yourselves, and not to be like some, adding largely to your sins, and saying, “The covenant is both theirs and ours.” But they thus finally lost it, after Moses had already received it. For the Scripture saith, “And Moses was fasting in the mount forty days and forty nights, and received the covenant from the Lord, tables of stone written with the finger of the hand of the Lord;” but turning away to idols, they lost it.” (Epistle of Barnabas, chapter IV)

Here Barnabas was very clearly condemning some in his day who were saying that the covenant, although it now belongs to the church, also still belongs to Israel. This clearly shows that in that day there were some who were teaching that the promises still apply to Israel. We find this stated even more clearly by Tertullian, where he said:

“Yes, certainly, you say, I do hope from Him that which amounts in itself to a proof of the diversity (of Christs), God’s kingdom in an everlasting and heavenly possession. Besides, your Christ promises to the Jews their primitive condition, with the recovery of their country; and after this life’s course is over, repose in Hades in Abraham’s bosom. Oh, most excellent God, when He restores in amnesty what He took away in wrath! Oh, what a God is yours, who both wounds and heals, creates evil and makes peace! Oh, what a God, that is merciful even down to Hades! I shall have something to say about Abraham’s bosom in the proper place. As for the restoration of Judaea, however, which even the Jews themselves, induced by the names of places and countries, hope for just as it is described, it would be tedious to state at length how the figurative interpretation is spiritually applicable to Christ and His church, and to the character and fruits thereof; besides, the subject has been regularly treated in another work, which we entitled De Spe Fidelium.” (“Anti-Marcion,” by Tertullian, Book III, Chap. XXIV)

Here we find Tertullian, who was himself later condemned as an heretic, accusing Marcion of blaspheming Christ by interpreting the Old Testament promises to Israel “just as it is described.”

Again, Dionysus complained concerning a man named Cerinthus, saying:

“For the doctrine inculcated by Cerinthus is this: that there will be an earthly reign of Christ; and as he was himself a man devoted to the pleasures of the body, and altogether carnal l in his dispositions, he fancied that that kingdom would consist in those kinds of gratifications on which his own heart was set,—to wit, in the delights of the belly, and what comes beneath the belly, that is to say, in eating and drinking, and marrying, and in other things under the guise of which he thought he could indulge his appetites with a better grace, such as festivals, and sacrifices, and the slaying of victims.” (“On the Promises,” by Dionysus, book 1, paragraph 3)
While Dionysius did not explicitly say that Cerenthus was speaking of a national restoration of Israel, he complained of him desiring to be able “indulge his appetites” with “sacrifices, and the slaying of victims.” This is clearly Israelite worship, for Christian worship never included “sacrifices, and the slaying of victims,” as described in the later chapters of Ezekiel.

Caius made the same complaint against Cerenthus, but with more detail, saying:

“But Cerinthus, too, through revelations written, as he would have us believe, by a great apostle, brings before us marvellous things, which he pretends were shown him by angels; alleging that after the resurrection the kingdom of Christ is to be on earth, and that the flesh dwelling in Jerusalem is again to be subject to desires and pleasures. And being an enemy to the Scriptures of God, wishing to deceive men, he says that there is to be a space of a thousand years for marriage festivals.” (“A Dialogue or Disputation Against Proclus, by Caius, II.iii.28)

Here Caius was claiming that the Revelation was not even written by John, but was a fabrication by this same Cerenthus. But here he added the detail that Cerenthus said “ that the flesh dwelling in Jerusalem is again to be subject to desires and pleasures.”

So we see that it is incontestably demonstrated that, although the medieval editors of church libraries did not see fit to preserve any such document, a future restoration of Israel was indeed taught in the early church.

 

[Bible2]

Biblewriter said in post 11:

“The Lord also spoke as follows to those who did not believe in Him: ‘I have come in my Father’s name, and ye have not received Me: when another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive,’ calling Antichrist ‘the other,’ because he is alienated from the Lord. This is also the unjust judge, whom the Lord mentioned as one ‘who feared not God, neither regarded man,’ to whom the widow fled in her forgetfulness of God,—that is, the earthly Jerusalem,—to be avenged of her adversary. Which also he shall do in the time of his kingdom: he shall remove his kingdom into that [city], and shall sit in the temple of God, leading astray those who worship him, as if he were Christ.” (Against Heresies, by Irenaeus, book V, chapter XXV, section 4)

Regarding the first sentence above, it should be pointed out that nothing requires that John 5:43b refers to the Antichrist, instead of to an ultra-Orthodox Jewish false "Messiah" whom the Antichrist will "cut" a 7-year peace treaty with (Daniel 9:26a,27a), after the Antichrist defeats him and his followers (Daniel 11:22-23a).

Biblewriter said in post 11:

“The Lord also spoke as follows to those who did not believe in Him: ‘I have come in my Father’s name, and ye have not received Me: when another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive,’ calling Antichrist ‘the other,’ because he is alienated from the Lord. This is also the unjust judge, whom the Lord mentioned as one ‘who feared not God, neither regarded man,’ to whom the widow fled in her forgetfulness of God,—that is, the earthly Jerusalem,—to be avenged of her adversary. Which also he shall do in the time of his kingdom: he shall remove his kingdom into that [city], and shall sit in the temple of God, leading astray those who worship him, as if he were Christ.” (Against Heresies, by Irenaeus, book V, chapter XXV, section 4)

Regarding "he shall remove his kingdom into that [city]", it should be pointed out that nothing requires that the Antichrist will rule from Jerusalem.

Revelation 13:2b refers to when Satan (the dragon, Revelation 12:9) will give the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) Satan's own earthly throne (seat) and power, so that the Antichrist will have power over all the nations of the earth (Revelation 13:7). This is what Satan offered Jesus, if he would worship Satan (Luke 4:5-7). In the first century AD, Satan's earthly throne was in the city of Pergamum (in what's now Turkey) (Revelation 2:12-13). Satan's earthly throne could be the Great Altar of Pergamum, also called the Pergamon Altar, which in ancient times was sometimes included as one of the 7 wonders of the world.

It may not be just a coincidence that shortly after the Pergamon Altar was moved to Berlin around 1900 AD, both World Wars were started from Berlin, or that "the Nazi-era architect Albert Speer used the Pergamon Altar as the model for the Zeppelintribüne, 1934-37. The Führer's pulpit was in the center of the tribune" (Pergamon Altar - Wikipedia) (quote has been deleted for some reason). When the Antichrist is given power over the whole earth (Revelation 13:7), his throne could be located in the center of the actual Pergamon Altar, which he could move from Berlin to a main temple to himself (and to Lucifer/Satan) in the literal, rebuilt city of Babylon (in Iraq). For a temple to "wickedness" will be built in Shinar (Babylonia) (Zechariah 5:8,11), and the Antichrist is called "that Wicked" (2 Thessalonians 2:8). Also, the dragon has been the god worshipped in the city of Babylon since ancient times.

Biblewriter said in post 11:

“The Lord also spoke as follows to those who did not believe in Him: ‘I have come in my Father’s name, and ye have not received Me: when another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive,’ calling Antichrist ‘the other,’ because he is alienated from the Lord. This is also the unjust judge, whom the Lord mentioned as one ‘who feared not God, neither regarded man,’ to whom the widow fled in her forgetfulness of God,—that is, the earthly Jerusalem,—to be avenged of her adversary. Which also he shall do in the time of his kingdom: he shall remove his kingdom into that [city], and shall sit in the temple of God, leading astray those who worship him, as if he were Christ.” (Against Heresies, by Irenaeus, book V, chapter XXV, section 4)

Regarding "as if he were Christ", it should be pointed out that "anti"-Christ can simply refer to anyone who is "against" the true Christ, as in anyone who denies that Jesus is the Christ (1 John 2:22), or denies that Jesus is the human/divine Son of God (1 John 2:22b), or denies that Christ is in the flesh (2 John 1:7). The spirit of antichrist (1 John 4:3) has been working since the first century AD (2 Thessalonians 2:7), animating many antichrists since that time (1 John 2:18; 2 John 1:7).

Nothing requires that the Antichrist will ever claim to be the Messiah/Christ, for his antichrist denial that Christ is in the flesh (1 John 4:3) will disqualify him as a mortal-flesh human (under his mistaken Gnostic doctrine) from being Christ. Instead, the non-mortal-flesh Lucifer (Satan, the dragon) could be the false Christ (i.e. the "Lucifer" Christ, and not the "Jesus" Christ: 1 John 2:22) during the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9), which will be in the latter half of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24.

But none of this means that there won't also be multiple, human false Christs who will arise during the tribulation (Matthew 24:24), including one who will be an ultra-Orthodox Jewish false Christ/Messiah. For shortly after the start of the tribulation, the Antichrist could "cut" a peace treaty with an ultra-Orthodox Jewish false "Messiah" (Daniel 9:26a, Daniel 11:22-23a), promising this false Messiah and his ultra-Orthodox Jewish followers that they can keep for at least 7 more years (Daniel 9:27a) a 3rd Jewish temple (Revelation 11:1) which they will have built on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem.

 

[Biblewriter]

Regarding the first sentence above, it should be pointed out that nothing requires that John 5:43b refers to the Antichrist, instead of to an ultra-Orthodox Jewish false "Messiah" whom the Antichrist will "cut" a 7-year peace treaty with (Daniel 9:26a,27a), after the Antichrist defeats him and his followers (Daniel 11:22-23a).



Regarding "he shall remove his kingdom into that [city]", it should be pointed out that nothing requires that the Antichrist will rule from Jerusalem.

Revelation 13:2b refers to when Satan (the dragon, Revelation 12:9) will give the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) Satan's own earthly throne (seat) and power, so that the Antichrist will have power over all the nations of the earth (Revelation 13:7). This is what Satan offered Jesus, if he would worship Satan (Luke 4:5-7). In the first century AD, Satan's earthly throne was in the city of Pergamum (in what's now Turkey) (Revelation 2:12-13). Satan's earthly throne could be the Great Altar of Pergamum, also called the Pergamon Altar, which in ancient times was sometimes included as one of the 7 wonders of the world.

It may not be just a coincidence that shortly after the Pergamon Altar was moved to Berlin around 1900 AD, both World Wars were started from Berlin, or that "the Nazi-era architect Albert Speer used the Pergamon Altar as the model for the Zeppelintribüne, 1934-37. The Führer's pulpit was in the center of the tribune" (Pergamon Altar - Wikipedia) (quote has been deleted for some reason). When the Antichrist is given power over the whole earth (Revelation 13:7), his throne could be located in the center of the actual Pergamon Altar, which he could move from Berlin to a main temple to himself (and to Lucifer/Satan) in the literal, rebuilt city of Babylon (in Iraq). For a temple to "wickedness" will be built in Shinar (Babylonia) (Zechariah 5:8,11), and the Antichrist is called "that Wicked" (2 Thessalonians 2:8). Also, the dragon has been the god worshipped in the city of Babylon since ancient times.



Regarding "as if he were Christ", it should be pointed out that "anti"-Christ can simply refer to anyone who is "against" the true Christ, as in anyone who denies that Jesus is the Christ (1 John 2:22), or denies that Jesus is the human/divine Son of God (1 John 2:22b), or denies that Christ is in the flesh (2 John 1:7). The spirit of antichrist (1 John 4:3) has been working since the first century AD (2 Thessalonians 2:7), animating many antichrists since that time (1 John 2:18; 2 John 1:7).

Nothing requires that the Antichrist will ever claim to be the Messiah/Christ, for his antichrist denial that Christ is in the flesh (1 John 4:3) will disqualify him as a mortal-flesh human (under his mistaken Gnostic doctrine) from being Christ. Instead, the non-mortal-flesh Lucifer (Satan, the dragon) could be the false Christ (i.e. the "Lucifer" Christ, and not the "Jesus" Christ: 1 John 2:22) during the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9), which will be in the latter half of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24.

But none of this means that there won't also be multiple, human false Christs who will arise during the tribulation (Matthew 24:24), including one who will be an ultra-Orthodox Jewish false Christ/Messiah. For shortly after the start of the tribulation, the Antichrist could "cut" a peace treaty with an ultra-Orthodox Jewish false "Messiah" (Daniel 9:26a, Daniel 11:22-23a), promising this false Messiah and his ultra-Orthodox Jewish followers that they can keep for at least 7 more years (Daniel 9:27a) a 3rd Jewish temple (Revelation 11:1) which they will have built on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem.

The point of these posts was not whether or not the ancient Christians were correct in their thinking. It was only to prove that they were indeed futurists, who taught of a coming Antichrist, of dissolution of the Roman Empire into ten kingdoms, of a literal future millennium, of a pre-tribulation rapture, and of future blessing for Israel. All of this is indebatable fact.

 

[Anto9us]

I find the ignorance of some current Christians to the fact that Futurism was held by many in the early Church quite astonishing.

What - if any - Christian histories have people been reading if they deny that Chiliasm (the word for the Futurism/PreMIllennialism of the Early Church Fathers) held a major place as a leading eschatology in the early church before the Amillennialism of Augustine took the field and held it basically til the Reformation, when Historicism got popular with the Reformers - who were picturing the Pope as the AntiChrist

There are crazed anti-Catholics who claim that Jesuit priests - Ribera and Alcala (sp?) were the ORIGINATORS of BOTH Futurism and Preterism -- that both of these eschatologies were just "Jesuit fabrications" to "get the Pope off the hook" as being the AntiChrist which was what the Reformation Historicists were claiming.

Those "demanding references" that the early church held Futurism are like people "demanding references" that Mickey Mantle and Roger Maris played baseball for the Yankees back in the 60's - or demanding references that there was such a thing as a Holocaust

Maybe reading some Church History before flapping one's piehole would be in order, but I guess if those with a knowledge of Church History have to re-invent the wheel and discuss Futurism among the early church fathers, a good job is already being done and many writers have been mentioned

As well as proper caveats being given that no one is attesting to the ACCURACY of these early church father futurists, just making it a point of history that they existed and they wrote about Futurism and most of informed Christendom knows it

 

[Anto9us]

A HISTORY OF CHRISTIAN THOUGHT by J. L. Neve (a Lutheran scholar) discusses various periods of the Early Church in Vol I and for the earliest periods, includes a small section on "Eschatology"

The first "period" in Neve's book goes back to before there were any NT Scriptures and starts from what we today look back on as "Parousia Delay" - i.e. - the fact that Jesus said He was coming back soon, but never did come back.

Neve alludes to Augustine taking over eschatological thought much later - it is pretty clear that Neve is NOT a "Futurist - or at least not a PREMILLENNIALIST" - as he refers to Augustine as having "clarified Christian thinking along this line."

"Eschatology occupied a unique place in the thought.... (of the time)

It accounts, in fact, for the delay in the production of Christian literature and also for much of the literature which appeared. One the one hand, early Christians, mindful of the promise of Christ's early return and eagerly expectant of this event, were satisfied with the oral gospel and the dominance of the Spirit. They felt no need for a written New Testament. On the other hand, when His coming seemed unduly delayed, confusion arose and it became necessary for the Apostle Paul with his far-reaching faith to write admonishing concerning this doctrine. (cf. I and II Thess.)

Jesus Himself inaugurated the hopes upon which the disciples meditated after His death. In the Book of Acts those hopes appear very vivid (Acts 1:11).

Paul endeavored to co-ordinate this tradition with his program of world-wide missions (II Thess. 3:5)

The writer of the Apocalypse elaborated upon this doctrine in terms of Jewish apocalyptic symbolism and in the light of the Roman imperial powers. The symbolic character of this book gave rise to many conflicting opinions in the development of Christian Doctrine.

Augustine (De civitate Dei), at a later time, to a very large extent, clarified Christian thinking along this line."

A HISTORY OF CHRISTIAN THOUGHT, Vol I - by J. L. Neve
The Muhlenberg Press
Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
copyright, 1946 by
The Board of Publication of
The United Lutheran Church in America
pg 33

I will post again giving comments and "reading between the lines" of Neve, who is most definitely not a fan of Futurism/PreMillennialism, but whose history at least ACKNOWLEDGES its presence in the early church, as other quotations will get into

 

[Anto9us]

That Paul had "to write admonishing concerning this doctrine" I take to be an allusion to Paul's denouncing of Hymenaeus and the other guy who were saying resurrection/return had already occurred.

That Revelation was written "in terms of Jewish apocalyptic symbolism" and "gave rise to many conflicting opinions" makes it sound like to me that Neve was sorry that there was such an Apocalypse giving rise to the "conflicting opinions" and he seems glad that Augustine "clarified Christian thinking"

(Translation - It's a good thing that Augustine squashed the Futurist/PreMIllennial views prevalent in the early church and that his own Amillennialism took over and held the field)

I assume that for most modern Lutherans, an Amillenniallism basically in Augustinian form still is a prevalent view, but I dunno for sure, I'm not Lutheran.

 

[Anto9us]

The next "period" that Neve discusses and includes a little summary on Eschatology about is his chapter 3,

"The Christianity of the Post-Apocalyptic Fathers",

its eschatology summary is on pg 43 of the reference in my earlier post:

"7. Eschatology. The time of the Apostolic Fathers, like that of primitive Christianity, was thoroughly eschatological in tendency. Men had the consciousness that they were living in the last times.

The immediate return of Jesus was aniticapated. It was this expectation which held the congregations together. Men considered it their imperative task to keep an eye on the approaching end and to work for their moral betterment, so as not to be surprised by its appearance.

In looking for the consummation, men learned to observe the signs of the times and to watch for definite indications which would precede Christ's coming. The precedent signs were to take the form of false prophets and seducers, increase of wickedness and persecutions, Anti-Christ, signs and wonders, the resurrection of the dead.

Chiliasm was defended by Papias in a very gross and materialistic form. He spoke of a thousandfold fruitfulness of vines and crops.

According to Barnabus, the return of Christ would be followed by His temporal reign for a thousand years. Although the historical church comprises both good and bad, the final judgement will bring about a separation of the righteous and the unrighteous.

The resurrection is defined in a decidedly Jewish and anti-Grecian sense, as the resurrection of the flesh. The chief thing that remained the final judgement of the world, and the certainty that the holy shall go to heaven to God, and the unholy to the place of eternal punishment."

There is a dig at Papias, an early Futurist/premillennialist - about his Chiliasm being in a "gross and materialistic form".

The allusion to "thousand-fold growth of vegetation" is to a reference in the book of Enoch - used widely in the early church in this age before it was not included in the canon - btw - there are certain Ethiopic Orthodox churches even today which look on the book of Enoch as canonical - it is also quoted in Jude in everybody's Bible.

Why Neve has to slur early Futurists as if they are pulling stuff from extra-biblical sources is further exemplified in this sentence:

"According to Barnabus, the return of Christ would be followed by His temporal reign for a thousand years."

Is this an allusion to Epistle of Barnabus - without a realization that "the return of Christ would be followed by His temporal reign for a thousand years" is STRAIGHT OUT OF THE BOOK OF REVELATION?

Like I said, Neve is no futurist/premillennialist, is NOT FAVORABLE TO THEM - but at least as a historian he acknowledges these writers existed in the early church - but his TONE is that "oh, they pulled their ideas from extra-biblical sources" - and Thank God Augustine eventually "straightened all of this out" with his Amillennialism which descended from heaven on a golden cord

(or maybe the Amillennialism was all on some special plates that Augustine dug up and translated wearing special glasses, after which the metal plates and the special glasses vanished.)

 

[Biblewriter]

Anto9us, I appreciate your pointing out that even Amillennialist historians agree that the early church taught such things. But when we have the actual writings of the early church, readily available for anyone to read, those who remain ignorant of these things are only able to do so by choosing to remain ignorant.

 

[Anto9us]

The (mercifully) final summary of a period's eschatology which Neve gives is on pg 48 of the work in my above post.

This "period" he designates "The Greek Apologists" in which he included Justin Martyr but NOT Irenaeus or Origen:

"6. Eschatology. In eschatology the Apologists restricted themselves to the thoughts of primitive Christianity as opposed to Hellenism and Gnosticism. Since the body as well as the soul had chosen righteousness on this earth, it was only natural that the body would be expected to share in the imperishable character of the soul. The Apolgists therefore looked for an immortality of the body along with that of the soul. The emphasis with which they championed this point was occasioned by the opposition they met at the hands of the Gnostics.

The Apologists taught also the Parousia of Christ and the Millennial Kingdom. At the appearing of Christ, both good and bad will stand before him to receive the reward of their deeds."