No one can come to me unless the Father draws him...

[Markea]

Then if one agrees that the Father draws/drags men to Christ, then one have to agree that those who are drawn will be raised up by Christ.

Scripture says plainly that all men will be raised up, some to everlasting life and some to everlasting shame and contempt.

 

[Charis kai Dunamis]

Scripture says plainly that all men will be raised up, some to everlasting life and some to everlasting shame and contempt.

It is clear that Jesus is not talking about all mankind in John 6:44.

Jhn 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

Those who come to Christ may be raised to everlasting contempt? What a promise...

 

[Markea]

It is clear that Jesus is not talking about all mankind in John 6:44.

Jhn 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

Those who come to Christ may be raised to everlasting contempt? What a promise...

Those who receive Him to everlasting life. Those who reject Him to shame and contempt.

 

[Markea]

There was man who came to Jesus but then left after being confronted with the cost of following Christ. If he came to Christ, then he must have been drawn, right?

 

[anthony55]

There was man who came to Jesus but then left after being confronted with the cost of following Christ.

That cost can only be met by the benefits of Christ death being applied to one by the Holy Ghost in regeneration.

The cross benefits brings with it, the crucifixion of the old life as paul stated Gal 6:

14But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by [The cross] whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.

The cross of Christ is powerful and produces God Honoring results.

 

[Hammster]

There was man who came to Jesus but then left after being confronted with the cost of following Christ. If he came to Christ, then he must have been drawn, right?

Why do you say that? A lot of people come to Jesus with wrong motives.

But Jesus on his part did not entrust himself to them, because he knew all people

 

[Markea]

Why do you say that? A lot of people come to Jesus with wrong motives.

But Jesus on his part did not entrust himself to them, because he knew all people

So then people can come to Christ without the Father drawing them.

 

[BrotherBob]

There was man who came to Jesus but then left after being confronted with the cost of following Christ. If he came to Christ, then he must have been drawn, right?

What other source draws men to Christ? In Romans God state: No one is righteous not even one and there is none who seek for God.There is none who does Good. There is not even one.
Are you contending that man conjures up the ability to come to Christ and
then to backslide past the cross? Just need some clarification.

 

[Hammster]

So then people can come to Christ without the Father drawing them.

It depends on what you mean by "come to Christ". There are lots of people who will come to Christ for what they can get. Just like in the verse I quoted. But Jesus will reject those who come with wrong motives. John 6 starts with 5000+. How many are left at the end?

 

[Markea]

It depends on what you mean by "come to Christ". There are lots of people who will come to Christ for what they can get.

Come to Christ means just that doesn't it ? Are you suggesting that there are multiple meanings to come to Christ ?

 

[Charis kai Dunamis]

Come to Christ means just that doesn't it ? Are you suggesting that there are multiple meanings to come to Christ ?

Some people come to Christ for money. Other people come to Christ for salvation.

One is the real Christ and one isn't.

One really comes and one doesn't.

I think you are being a tad bit unreasonable here.

 

[Hammster]

Come to Christ means just that doesn't it ? Are you suggesting that there are multiple meanings to come to Christ ?

21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
22 On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?'
23 And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'

I'm willing to bet that those people thought that they came do Christ.

 

[DeaconDean]

21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
22 On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?'
23 And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'

I'm willing to bet that those people thought that they came do Christ.

I wonder:

"And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up: Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth: And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away. And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them: But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold." -Mt. 13:4-8 (KJV)

Which one of these four groups actually came to God?

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[Markea]

Some people come to Christ for money. Other people come to Christ for salvation.

In the reformed view, why would anyone come to Christ ? Don't you believe that all men are totally depraved and that none seek after God ? So why would any man come to Christ if the Father isn't drawing them ? Again, don't you believe that all men hate God before they're regenerated. I'm not trying to be contentious, just wondering how that all works.

One is the real Christ and one isn't.

Didn't the rich young ruler come to the real Christ ? Why did he turn away when he came to the real Christ ?

One really comes and one doesn't.

How does one come to Christ and not really come to Christ ? Seriously ?

I think you are being a tad bit unreasonable here.

Why, the OP argues that no man can come to Christ unless the Father draws them, and yet we see simple stories in the scriptures swith respect to people coming to Christ, and again, the rich young ruler came to the real Christ and even asked him what he needed to do ? He walked away after he was told to sell all that he had. Isn't that the reason that he left the real Christ ?

 

[Hammster]

How does one come to Christ and not really come to Christ ? Seriously ?

21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
22 On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?'
23 And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'

23 Now when he was in Jerusalem at the Passover Feast, many believed in his name when they saw the signs that he was doing.
24 But Jesus on his part did not entrust himself to them, because he knew all people
25 and needed no one to bear witness about man, for he himself knew what was in man.

 

[Hammster]

How does one come to Christ and not really come to Christ ? Seriously ?

21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
22 On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?'
23 And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'

23 Now when he was in Jerusalem at the Passover Feast, many believed in his name when they saw the signs that he was doing.
24 But Jesus on his part did not entrust himself to them, because he knew all people
25 and needed no one to bear witness about man, for he himself knew what was in man.

 

[Van]

Hi Deacon Dean, not one lexicon I have seen says draw when used metaphorically of men means to draw irresistibly. No one. So the burden of proof, that your addition to scripture is a logical necessity falls on you.

 

[Markea]

Hammster, You're avoiding the question. How can they come in the first place if God didn't draw them ?

Here's a quote from the Total Inability thread recently posted by HeyMikey;

Man is a free agent but be cannot originate the love of God in his heart. His will is free in the sense that it is not controlled by any force outside of himself. As the bird with a broken wing is "free" to fly but not able, so the natural man is free to come to God but not able. How can he repent of his sin when he loves it? How can he come to God when he hates Him?

So how's that work ?

Unregenerate men can't come to God but they do come to God ?

 

[Hammster]

Hammster, You're avoiding the question. How can they come in the first place if God didn't draw them ?

Here's a quote from the Total Inability thread recently posted by HeyMikey;



So how's that work ?

Men can't come to God but men do come to God ?

I guess the difference is that we are looking at it scripturally, and not superficially. You think coming to Jesus is showing up at church each Sunday. We recognize that those who have come to Jesus are those who actually worship Him. You see it as someone who says a sinners prayer. We see it as someone who beats their breast and says "Lord have mercy one me, a sinner". Now, if that's not bow you see it, then I am left with the impression that you are just being contrary because you hate Calvinism and you really don't have an answer for John 6.

 

[Markea]

I guess the difference is that we are looking at it scripturally, and not superficially. You think coming to Jesus is showing up at church each Sunday. We recognize that those who have come to Jesus are those who actually worship Him. You see it as someone who says a sinners prayer. We see it as someone who beats their breast and says "Lord have mercy one me, a sinner". Now, if that's not bow you see it, then I am left with the impression that you are just being contrary because you hate Calvinism and you really don't have an answer for John 6.

Well, maybe someone will actually answer the question instead of telling me what I believe