No one can come to me unless the Father draws him...

DeaconDean

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In fact Van, I can show:

ἕλκω (ἑλκύω late, Tz.H.6.621), Il.24.52, etc., impf.

A. “εἷλκον” A.Fr.39, etc., Ep.“ἕλκον” Il.4.213,al. (never εἵλκυον): fut.“ἕλξω” A.Supp.909, etc., rarely ἑλκύσω [υ^] Hp.Fract.2, Philem.174: aor. “εἵλκυ^σα” Batr.232, Pi.N.7.103, Trag. and Att., E.Ph.987, Ar.Nu.540, SIG2587.23, al., etc.; “ἥλκυσα” IG11(2).287 B61 (Delos, ii B.C.), CIG4993,5006 (Egypt, iii A.D.); later εἷλξα, poet. “ἕλξα” AP9.370 (Tib. Ill.), Orph.A.258, Gal.Nat.Fac.1.12: pf. “εἵλκυ^κα” D.22.59; pf. part. ἑολκώς prob.in Epich. 177:—Med., fut. -ύσομαι (ἐφ-) Antyll. ap. Orib.6.10.9: aor. εἱλκυσάμην (ἀφ-) v.l. in Hp.Art.11, subj. “ἀφελκύσωμαι” Ar.Ach.1120; rarely “εἱλξάμην” Gal.4.534:—Pass., fut. “ἑλκυσθήσομαι” A.Th.614 (ξυγκαθ-), Lyc.358, “ἑλχθήσομαι” Gal.UP7.7: aor. “εἱλκύσθην” Hp.Epid.4.14, (ἐξ-) Ar.Ec.688, “ἑλκ-” Hdt.1.140, “ἡλκ-” IG12(7).115.11 (Amorgos); later “εἵλχθην” Ph.2.11, Philostr.VA8.15, D.L.6.91: pf. “εἵλκυσμαι” Hp.Superf. 16, E.Rh.576,Ph.1.316, (καθ-) Th.6.50, ἕλκυσμαι (ἀν-) Hdt.9.98, “ἥλκυσμαι” BGU1256.11(ii B.C.): plpf. “εἵλκυστο” Hp.Epid.4.36.—In Att., ἕλκω, ἕλξω were alone used in pres. and fut., while the other tenses were formed from ἑλκυ-; cf. ἑλκέω (q.v.), ἑλκυστάζω. In Hom., Aristarch. rejected the augm. (Cf. Lat. sulcus, Lith. velkù 'drag'):— draw, drag, with collat.notion of force or exertion, ὣς εἰπὼν ποδὸς ἕλκε began to drag [the dead body] by the foot, Il.13.383; “ἤν περ . . ποδῶν ἕλκωσι θύραζε” Od.16.276; “τινὰ “τινὰ σῆμ᾽ ἑτάροιο ἕλκει” Il.24.52; drag away a prisoner, 22.65 (Pass.); draw ships down to the sea, 2.152, etc.; draw along a felled tree, 17.743; of mules, draw a chariot, 24.324; ἑλκέμεναι νειοῖο . . πηκτὸν ἄροτρον draw the plough through the field, 10.353, cf. 23.518; “ἕ. τινὰ κνάφου” Hdt.1.92; περιβαλόντας σχοινία ἕ. haul at them, Id.5.85.

Source

Continued...
 
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DeaconDean

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How about 74 references outside scripture that match what I said?



Cross-references in general dictionaries from this page (75):
  • Aeschylus, Seven Against Thebes, 614
  • Aeschylus, Suppliant Maidens, 909
  • Aristophanes, Ecclesiazusae, 688
  • Aristophanes, Knights, 107
  • Aristophanes, Peace, 328
  • Aristotle, Constitution of the Athenians, 64.1
  • Demosthenes, Against Midias, 150
  • Demosthenes, Against Androtion, 59
  • Euripides, Cyclops, 417
  • Euripides, Ion, 1200
  • Euripides, Orestes, 207
  • Euripides, Phoenician Women, 1535
  • Euripides, Phoenician Women, 987
  • Euripides, Rhesus, 576
  • Euripides, Trojan Women, 280
  • Herodotus, Histories, 1.140
  • Herodotus, Histories, 1.179
  • Herodotus, Histories, 1.194
  • Herodotus, Histories, 1.50
  • Herodotus, Histories, 1.92
  • Herodotus, Histories, 2.25
  • Herodotus, Histories, 2.65
  • Herodotus, Histories, 3.129
  • Herodotus, Histories, 3.21
  • Herodotus, Histories, 5.85
  • Herodotus, Histories, 6.86
  • Herodotus, Histories, 7.167
  • Herodotus, Histories, 9.98
  • Homer, Iliad, 10.15
  • Homer, Iliad, 10.353
  • Homer, Iliad, 13.383
  • Homer, Iliad, 17.743
  • Homer, Iliad, 1.194
  • Homer, Iliad, 22.212
  • Homer, Iliad, 22.65
  • Homer, Iliad, 23.518
  • Homer, Iliad, 23.715
  • Homer, Iliad, 24.324
  • Homer, Iliad, 24.52
  • Homer, Iliad, 2.152
  • Homer, Iliad, 4.122
  • Homer, Iliad, 4.213
  • Homer, Iliad, 8.486
  • Homer, Iliad, 8.72
  • Homer, Odyssey, 16.276
  • Homer, Odyssey, 19.506
  • Homer, Odyssey, 21.419
  • Homer, Odyssey, 2.426
  • Homeric Hymns, Hymn 7 to Dionysus, 32
  • Lysias, On the Murder of Eratosthenes, 12
  • Plato, Republic, 350d
  • Plato, Republic, 458d
  • Plato, Republic, 494e
  • Plato, Republic, 568c
  • Plato, Theaetetus, 195c
  • Plato, Phaedrus, 238a
  • Plato, Phaedrus, 270a
  • Plato, Parmenides, 135d
  • Plato, Minos, 316a
  • Sophocles, Antigone, 1233
  • Strabo, Geography, 11.9.3
  • Thucydides, Histories, 2.90
  • Thucydides, Histories, 6.50
  • Xenophon, Anabasis, 4.2.28
  • Xenophon, Memorabilia, 3.11.18
  • Polybius, Histories, 32.10.5
  • Aristophanes, Acharnians, 1120
  • Aristophanes, Clouds, 1004
  • Aristophanes, Clouds, 1218
  • Aristophanes, Clouds, 540
  • Aristophanes, Lysistrata, 727
  • Hippocrates, De articulis, 11
  • Hippocrates, De fracturis, 2
  • Galen, De naturalibus facultatibus, 1.12
Source

So please Van prove to me that:

This meaning is invented

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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Easystreet

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Matthew 23:13 has nothing to do with salvation. The context is Jesus rebuking the Pharisees. You can't build sound theology on eisegesis.
Personally I don't agree with you, Van is correct. However, what is your interpretation of this verse.
 
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Personally I don't agree with you, Van is correct. However, what is your interpretation of this verse.


The Pharisees were leading people astray with their teachings; though, they were teaching the law, they were neglecting the teaching of God's salvation plan expressed in the Law and the Prophets. Jesus was rebuking them in satirical form to expressly insult them through ridicule of their religiousness and self-righteousness. The verse taken out of context that Van uses does not leave room for his bizarre dogma when it is kept in the context. In fact I don't even understand how one could even come up with such nonsense with that verse, it's a stretch of meaning that goes beyond common sense.
 
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Van

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Well there you have it folks, all the usual suspects poured feverishly on the truth to deny it.

You get Matthew 23:13 not meaning what it says because that would falsify Calvinism.

You get charged with avoiding the Calvinist point that draw means drag when referring to inanimate objects. And of course that point is irrelevant - merely an effort to change the subject.

You get a data dump, an avalanche of verbiage having nothing to do with the point in contention, which is not that draw is used metaphorically to mean lead or impel, the issue is when used metaphorically does it mean to draw irresistibly by irresistible grace, and that is the invented meaning.

But to repeat, scripture actually says God draws folks with lovingkindness, and love does not demand its own way, therefore draw does not mean to be compelled by irresistible grace. Second point, Matthew 23:13 demonstrates that to be drawn such that you are entering heaven is not irresistible, they were turned aside by false teachings.
 
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Well there you have it folks, all the usual suspects poured feverishly on the truth to deny it.

You get Matthew 23:13 not meaning what it says because that would falsify Calvinism.

You get charged with avoiding the Calvinist point that draw means drag when referring to inanimate objects. And of course that point is irrelevant - merely an effort to change the subject.

You get a data dump, an avalanche of verbiage having nothing to do with the point in contention, which is not that draw is used metaphorically to mean lead or impel, the issue is when used metaphorically does it mean to draw irresistibly by irresistible grace, and that is the invented meaning.

But to repeat, scripture actually says God draws folks with lovingkindness, and love does not demand its own way, therefore draw does not mean to be compelled by irresistible grace. Second point, Matthew 23:13 demonstrates that to be drawn such that you are entering heaven is not irresistible, they were turned aside by false teachings.


:doh:I am without words. Epitome of ignorance.
 
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Charis kai Dunamis

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Well there you have it folks, all the usual suspects poured feverishly on the truth to deny it.

You get Matthew 23:13 not meaning what it says because that would falsify Calvinism.

You get charged with avoiding the Calvinist point that draw means drag when referring to inanimate objects. And of course that point is irrelevant - merely an effort to change the subject.

You get a data dump, an avalanche of verbiage having nothing to do with the point in contention, which is not that draw is used metaphorically to mean lead or impel, the issue is when used metaphorically does it mean to draw irresistibly by irresistible grace, and that is the invented meaning.

But to repeat, scripture actually says God draws folks with lovingkindness, and love does not demand its own way, therefore draw does not mean to be compelled by irresistible grace. Second point, Matthew 23:13 demonstrates that to be drawn such that you are entering heaven is not irresistible, they were turned aside by false teachings.

So then what is your view of Matthew 12:13 Van? That men were "being saved", and that they somehow backed out? Don't you believe in eternal security? Don't you also believe that our justification/adoption/rebirth all happen simultaneously? Or is there a process (hence "entering")? So what do you think Jesus meant, soteriologically, when he used the word "entering" or εἰσερχομένους? And what is your reason for thinking Jesus was speaking soteriologically? Was not His main point to rebuke the Pharisees, not make a dogmatic doctrinal statement?

Further, does Jesus ever say that these who were "entering" never made it in eventually? Does it speak of whether they were elect or not? Does it speak of whether they were "drawn" by God? What is mean by "kingdom of Heaven": metaphoric or physical?

For such a general statement, in which Jesus is making a point about something completely different than your focus, it sure seems you are reaching here. If this is the best text that you have then you may as well admit your view isn't very well supported.

We have basically all of John 6 as well as John 10, where Jesus teaches that He knows His sheep and His sheep know Him (10:14-15), He lays down His life for His sheep (10:15), that they were all given to Him by the Father (10:29), that they will come to Him and follow (10:27), and no one can snatch them away from Him (10:28).

^^^This is not what you teach. This is what Reformed Theology teaches, and it is exactly what Jesus taught in John 10, as well as John 6. No one is going to stop His sheep from coming to Him, mostly because they have already been given to Him. He has them now, even if they haven't physically come to Him. All He has to do is call them, and they will come. This is not what you teach. You think that His sheep can resist His call, that they don't have to come if they don't want. But again, that is not what Jesus taught:

Jhn 10:27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me."

If the Pharisees could be considered wolves, and they were to try to attack Christ's sheep, they would still fail. Jesus says so:

Jhn 10:12 "He who is a hired hand, and not a shepherd, who is not the owner of the sheep, sees the wolf coming, and leaves the sheep and flees, and the wolf snatches them and scatters them.
Jhn 10:13 "He flees because he is a hired hand and is not concerned about the sheep."

Jesus is not a hired hand; Jesus is our Shepherd. Jesus guards us and keeps us. If one sheep strays from the flock, Jesus will rescue it, because He is concerned for His sheep. All that the Father has given Him will be raised on the last day, every single one:

Jhn 6:39 "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day."

Why do you have such a problem with Reformed Soteriology? It is exactly what Jesus taught. We are not trying to conjure up some sort of fake story to mislead people. We are just repeating what Jesus taught here in John. For some reason you find that unacceptable and it saddens my heart.
 
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Hammster

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Here is what usually happens when we give a solid, contextual argument, no just a bunch of verses strung together from all over. The common response is "Yeah, but what about this (completely separate, and sometimes in a different book) verse?". And that verse, more often than not, is taken out of context. Why do the synergists have so much trouble with context?
 
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Easystreet

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Here is what usually happens when we give a solid, contextual argument, no just a bunch of verses strung together from all over. The common response is "Yeah, but what about this (completely separate, and sometimes in a different book) verse?". And that verse, more often than not, is taken out of context. Why do the synergists have so much trouble with context?

Your assumption to start with is false. I suggest that you take a verse and from that verse you, Hammster, demonstrate to everyone your ability to keep the verse in context, immediate (which is the specific topic at hand not just a single verse) the greater topic it is housed in and other related verses that seem to speak to the same topic. Just use the verses and let’s see what you can do with it.

I suggest you take “anothen” “born from above” John chapter three and demonstrate to us how it relates to the context. Where does the topic of “anothen” start and end in its immediate context and why?
 
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Easystreet

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The Pharisees were leading people astray with their teachings; though, they were teaching the law, they were neglecting the teaching of God's salvation plan expressed in the Law and the Prophets. Jesus was rebuking them in satirical form to expressly insult them through ridicule of their religiousness and self-righteousness. The verse taken out of context that Van uses does not leave room for his bizarre dogma when it is kept in the context. In fact I don't even understand how one could even come up with such nonsense with that verse, it's a stretch of meaning that goes beyond common sense.


OK, let us try once more. You spent more time bashing VAN and not developing your reason as to why you differ. Suppose you start again and defend your view. Try to convince us you are right by developing your view. Don't worry about us.
 
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Easystreet

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The Pharisees were leading people astray with their teachings; though, they were teaching the law, they were neglecting the teaching of God's salvation plan expressed in the Law and the Prophets. Jesus was rebuking them in satirical form to expressly insult them through ridicule of their religiousness and self-righteousness.
In this thread I have eliminated the negative comments about Van from your post Thaeloes.

Explain the salvation plan that is correct as you see it that defines your statement, "neglecting the teaching of God's salvation plan expressed in the Law and the Prophets."
 
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Easystreet

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I agree with the OP. What is your response to his argument? If you'd like to start a thread on John 3, go ahead.

You are the one that is accusing all who are not Calvinist of taking things out of context so it is up to you to back up your claim if you can. You have a chance to demonstrate your ability apart from just making claims. As they say on the street "put your money where your mouth is" or in other words you demonstrate what you claim.
 
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Charis kai Dunamis

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You are the one that is accusing all who are not Calvinist of taking things out of context so it is up to you to back up your claim if you can. You have a chance to demonstrate your ability apart from just making claims. As they say on the street "put your money where your mouth is" or in other words you demonstrate what you claim.

lol how many posts have we made clearly outlining where Van has been out of context or has tried to impose his view on the text? You want us to repeat it all again for you? Like Hammy said, interact with OP. I made my case, you make yours.
 
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Hammster

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You are the one that is accusing all who are not Calvinist of taking things out of context so it is up to you to back up your claim if you can. You have a chance to demonstrate your ability apart from just making claims. As they say on the street "put your money where your mouth is" or in other words you demonstrate what you claim.

Luke 7:50 and Titus 3:5 ring a bell? My claim has been demonstrated-at least to those who have followed your argumentation for the past year or so.

Now, would you like to address the OP, or is there something else you'd like to bring up so that you can avoid doing so?
 
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Markea

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My response to the OP would be John 1; that the Lord Jesus Christ is that true light which lighteth every man that comes into the world, and also where it plainly states that all who received Him were given power to become the sons of God.

As for drawing, who can estimate how God draws men to Himself ? It's like you can't even go there unless you have Godspeed understanding of how the Spirit of God works within the hearts and minds of His creatures.

So my question would be this. How does a person know whether or not the Father is drawing men to Himself, or has in the past, or will in the future ?

If we look at the story in Gen 24, the servant was clear if the woman was not willing to go to where Isaac was. Scripture is obvious that Isaac is a type and picture of Christ, and therefore Rebekah is a picture and type of the church of God. The story doesn't speak of drawing per se, although the circumstances in her life led her to the well which was where the servant found the virgin woman to be.
 
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Easystreet

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Luke 7:50 and Titus 3:5 ring a bell? My claim has been demonstrated-at least to those who have followed your argumentation for the past year or so.

Now, would you like to address the OP, or is there something else you'd like to bring up so that you can avoid doing so?
Well, it is true, no one can make you do it.
 
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BrotherBob

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:wave: Was Paul and the other Apostles Drawn by God? Did the Apostles of their own free will choose Jesus? Do we tend to overestimate fallen sinful man and underestimate the omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscience of the
creator of the universe and everything in it? I believe in the almighty who
drew me, saved me, and keeps me save until the day of redemption.:cool:
 
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