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No one can come to me unless the Father draws him...

Discussion in 'Salvation (Soteriology)' started by Charis kai Dunamis, Jun 7, 2010.

  1. Van

    Van Contributor

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    Hi Jesusfreak5000, please spare me the "that is not what Calvinists believe" dodge. Assert what you do believe that differs from my characterization. Otherwise my view is unchallenged.

    You did not lay a foundation in scripture, you cited John 6:44 and then asserted it said what it does not say, ditto for John 12:32.
    "Bottom line, neither verse says what Calvinism claims, John 12:32 does not say "draw all [kinds] of men" and John 6:44 does not say "Everyone drawn by the Father comes to Me."

    Thus no foundation in scripture.

    John 6:44 does not say the everyone drawn will be raised. This assertion has no basis in scripture. What it does say is 100% of those given come to Me and 100% of those who come to me because they were given by the Father will be raised up. Proving one point, all those given are granted or allowed and they are all saved, does not prove the second assertion, all those drawn are given. No basis in scripture. Also all those allowed to come to Jesus do not necessarily come to Jesus. See Matthew 23:13.

    Have Christ's "other sheep" been given to Him? Again, there is no basis in scripture for this assertion. There are folks who are "of My sheep" that are not yet "My sheep" and these "of My Sheep" and "of God" folks are receptive to the gospel because they believe in the Father. But they have not received the gospel yet, God has not credited their faith as righteousness yet, and God has not given them to Christ by spiritually placing them in Christ yet.

    The sequence is clear, first a person must hear and understand the gospel to be drawn. Next, a person drawn must also have learned, which is to put their trust in Jesus. Now those whose faith God credits as righteousness are the ones who have heard and learned, John 6:45, and they are the ones given to Christ, and therefore come to Christ, and are saved. A person who has not been granted cannot learn because their heart has been hardened and therefore they are not given and so they cannot come to Me.
     
  2. Charis kai Dunamis

    Charis kai Dunamis χάρις καὶ δύναμις

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    Jon 1:17 And the LORD appointed a great fish to swallow Jonah, and Jonah was in the stomach of the fish three days and three nights.

    Apparently God has control over the fish too. :D
     
  3. Hentenza

    Hentenza I will fear no evil for You are with me Staff Member Site Advisors Supporter

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    If you do a word study on appointed it becomes quite clear that God has no issues appointing. lol
     
  4. Thaeoles

    Thaeoles ?

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    :thumbsup:

    But even then, I don't feel like my analogy does justice to the truth of the matter. We are evil. We deserve Hell, in fact, we are destined for Hell because of our evilness. And yet God shows mercy to some to glorify himself, and lets the others get what they deserve to glorify Himself in justice. Who are we to make such bold claims to say that we chose Him, when it is He that chooses to give us mercy? I can't fathom it.
     
  5. Van

    Van Contributor

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    As I have often said, it does no good to prove one point and then claim some other point has been proven. Can God compel an outcome such as causing a great fish to swallow Jonah? Of course. Does this prove when God draws someone, they are compelled to trust in Christ 100% of the time? Nope.

    To extrapolate the appointing of a great fist to the meaning of draw as only compulsion by force, as opposed to the attraction of the gospel message is unnecessary and therefore unsound doctrine.
     
  6. Hammster

    Hammster #foster #adopt Supporter

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    But Scripture does.
     
  7. BrotherBob

    BrotherBob Zealot

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    :wave: What is it that makes someone believe in Jesus Christ? The gospel
    is preached every day in churches, street corners, on radio & TV and
    the number of those who accept it is small. Do those that believe
    have superior intellect to understand that they are being offered
    eternal life as a free gift. Would anyone except a fool turn it down.
    Until God sends the Holy Spirit to present the Gospel in a clear
    light so its acknowledged as truth, carnal man is dead in his sins
    and unable to save himself. So, yes I know, from my personal
    experience, and what the Bible teaches that Gods draws us to Him.
    If some fool wants to, by his own free will, reject the offer of God,
    then I doubt that God has called him.:cool:
     
  8. Van

    Van Contributor

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    The biblical answer to this question is provided in scripture. The parable of the four soils, and the account of the rich young ruler provide the answer. All these repeated claims of total spiritual inability are demonstrated false by Matthew 23:13.

    Secondly the use of the term called is vague. Called like "come hither" an invitation, or called as in "the called" those whose faith has been accepted by God?
     
  9. razeontherock

    razeontherock New Member

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    Yes I do, thank you for the explanation. Actually, I've always gotten this sense from Scripture! So from your vantage point, does it do any good to pray for the Father to draw an individual?
     
  10. DeaconDean

    DeaconDean γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον

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    The only verse that I would add to this is:

    "And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life." -Jn. 5:40 (KJV)

    God Bless

    Till all are one.
     
  11. DeaconDean

    DeaconDean γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον

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    Hum..."elkush", "according to Calvinism..seems to be used metaphorically". Hum...

    The New Analytical Greek Lexicon, Wesley J. Perschbacher, Hendrickson Publishing, Peabody, Mass., 01962, Copyright 1990, "elko", p. 135

    Helkuo - King James Version Greek Lexicon, says:


    I wonder how many people have "falsely" used these definitions to teach?

    Tell me somethimg friend, what did John Calvin, since your an expert on what Calvinists believe, teach regarding:

    "Then was Jesus led (anhcqh) up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil." -Mt. 4:1 (KJV)

    And:

    "And immediately the spirit driveth (ekballei) him into the wilderness." -Mk. 1:12 (KJV)

    Does "ekballei" mean "driveth"?

    Does "anhcqh" mean "led"?

    Was Jesus "cast out, ejected by force, to expel, force away, to refuse, to extract, to reject with contempt, dispise, contemn, to send abroad, dimiss, to bring out, produce" into the wilderness?

    The New Analytical Greek Lexicon, Wesley J. Perschbacher, Hendrickson Publishing, Peabody, Mass., 01962, Copyright 1990, "ekballw" p. 124

    Was Jesus "to conduct, to lead or convey from a lower to a higher place, to offer up as a sacrifice, to lead out, produce, as a nautical term, to set sail, put to sea"

    The New Analytical Greek Lexicon, Wesley J. Perschbacher, Hendrickson Publishing, Peabody, Mass., 01962, Copyright 1990, "anhcqh" p. 20

    Which is it?

    Was Jesus led by the Holy Spirit into the wilderness, or was He driven as one does cattle or sheep?

    What did Calvin teach about this?

    God Bless

    Till all are one.
     
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2010
  12. DeaconDean

    DeaconDean γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον

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    In the parable of the sower, of the four types of soil in which the seed was planted, which type turned out to be true Christians and which ones were only deceiving themselves?

    God Bless

    Till all are one.
     
  13. Hammster

    Hammster #foster #adopt Supporter

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    And who prepared the soil? Our synergist brothers would have us believe that the soil was prepared once the seed fell on it.
     
  14. DeaconDean

    DeaconDean γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον

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    Our Hyper-Calvinist friends would have us believe that the soil was prepared before the person was born, or, from before the foundation of the world.

    God Bless

    Till all are one.
     
  15. anthony55

    anthony55 New Member

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    tha:

    Thats not the only definition see post 12.
     
  16. nobdysfool

    nobdysfool The original! Accept no substitutes! Supporter

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    Strange, that scripture seems to be the "Swiss Army Knife" of choice, among the synergists lately, or at least one synergist....

    I think the context would clear up any vagueness. That is, unless, one is trying to shoehorn one's own view into the scriptures....
     
  17. Charis kai Dunamis

    Charis kai Dunamis χάρις καὶ δύναμις

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    Yes, I pray for it whenever I have the chance, whenever there is a presentation of the Gospel in my Church, whenever I know someone who is considering Christ, etc. I can pray because I am not aware of who God has elected. He may have taken my prayer into account in eternity past. God is outside of time and is not limited by time. He has determined us as the means, and therefore, prayer is capable of being answered simply because you prayed it.

    On the flipside, in synergism, God has already extended all of the grace to man that He will. It is all out on the table, now it is up to man to grab hold of it. It is the synergist who cannot pray for the salvation of the individual. God cannot do anymore without becoming a terrible puppet-master God, whose sole purpose is to glorify John Calvin. ^_^
     
  18. Charis kai Dunamis

    Charis kai Dunamis χάρις καὶ δύναμις

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    And...

    Jhn 10:25 Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father's name, these testify of Me.
    Jhn 10:26 "But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.

    Like I said in the OP, John is full of monergism. It is everywhere. I tried not to include too much though because I figured the opposition would barely read it anyway. :wave:
     
  19. razeontherock

    razeontherock New Member

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    This clearly defines synergism as false, since Christ ascended to give gifts to men. That can't be finished as we still have unfulfilled prophecy.
     
  20. Van

    Van Contributor

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    According to Calvinists, how does God draw? By irresistible grace, compulsion, etc. All these posts saying draw is used metaphorically simply evade the doctrine. They must use this definition to shoehorn their view into scripture, and so I am charged with that practice. This is the swissarmyknife of Calvinism, redefine words that falsify Calvinism. Notice that this asserted meaning of "to draw irresistibly" is not logically necessary, and therefore takes scripture too far. And that Calvinism defends other of its false premises using the made up definitions in support.

    Logically, if no one can come unless drawn, does that mean everyone drawn must come? Of course not. But if draw means to compel with irresistible grace, then why would God drag folks except for the purpose of giving them to Christ. Anyone can support any doctrine if they can redefine the meanings of words so they fit the doctrine.

    Are there more than the two disputed examples of "draw" being used metaphorically to me attract by persuasion rather than compulsion? In Jeremiah 31:3 we learn that God draws men by lovingkindness - the Hebrew word being hesed which means steadfast love. Why do we love God? Because He first loved us and demonstrated that love by dying for us while we were sinners. So the gospel message presents God's love, and those that respond to that love have be drawn by lovingkindness. Irresistible grace is no where to be found, so out comes the swissarmyknife and love is redefined as sometimes meaning irresistible grace. Viola, everything fits.

    There is no basis in scripture if you accept the common meaning of words, rather than the specialized ones invented to support Calvinism.
     
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