No Man hath ascended up to heaven

[vic123]

let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God believe also in me . In my father house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. And if I go and prepare a place for you . I will come again, and receive you unto myself that where I am there ye may be also.(where is Christ at present in heaven and this is where saved Christians will be taken when Christ returns for his bride the church)Christ will take the church his bride back to heaven for the marriage and wedding feast of the lamb.

 

[InSpiritandTruth]

This may be a little off topic, but everyone will see death. To say that Enoch or Elijah did not die, would seem a contradiction.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,

 

[Der Alte]

This may be a little off topic, but everyone will see death. To say that Enoch or Elijah did not die, would seem a contradiction.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,

These passages were written 700+ years after Elijah and Enoch. Thus no contradiction.

 

[DennisTate]

Hundreds of millions of Christians believe they will go to heaven when they die.
They believe their loved ones who have passed away are hopefully there even now.
Heaven is spoken of as the place of God's throne.
But how strange it is that Christ would say " No man hath ascended up to heaven ".
Did He mean the great men of the bible like Abraham, Noah, Moses, Elijah, and David are not in Heaven now?
I can't find any passage in the Bible that actually says " we will go to heaven when we die " or " When we get to heaven "
There is little about what we will be doing once we get to heaven in scripture if that was the case.
Is heaven really the reward of the righteous or does God have something else in mind for us?
Interestingly, you can find in ancient pagan religion , not the bible, that a soul goes to heaven at death.
What do you think is the future God has planned for us?

I personally was a firm believer in the "soul sleep" doctrine until I began to research near death experience accounts.

There were simply too many scriptures that sounded similar for me to rule out these testimonies based on a couple of verses that could be easy to misunderstand. For example............. "no man hath ascended up to heaven" could mean that no man has ascended to heaven........ in their four dimensional space - time physical body....... but the out of the body experience could well be a different subject altogether, if I have not misunderstood the Apostle Paul's words in II Corinthians 12:2-4??!!

http://www.christianforums.com/thre...-asks-about-holocaust-during-his-nde.7647330/
Former atheist Howard Storm asks about holocaust during his NDE?!

I personally am wide open to the possibility that what former atheist Howard Storm was shown regarding the background events surrounding the holocaust fit perfectly with II Corinthians 12:2-4:

"I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth; ) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth; )
How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter."

.......

 

[Der Alte]

I personally was a firm believer in the "soul sleep" doctrine until I began to research near death experience accounts.

There were simply too many scriptures that sounded similar for me to rule out these testimonies based on a couple of verses that could be easy to misunderstand. For example............. "no man hath ascended up to heaven" could mean that no man has ascended to heaven........ in their four dimensional space - time physical body....... but the out of the body experience could well be a different subject altogether, if I have not misunderstood the Apostle Paul's words in II Corinthians 12:2-4??!!

http://www.christianforums.com/thre...-asks-about-holocaust-during-his-nde.7647330/
Former atheist Howard Storm asks about holocaust during his NDE?!

I personally am wide open to the possibility that what former atheist Howard Storm was shown regarding the background events surrounding the holocaust fit perfectly with II Corinthians 12:2-4:

"I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth; ) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth; )
How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter."
.......

.
Another way to resolve this apparent contradiction by understanding the Greek. The Greek word ἀναβαίνω/anabaino, translated "has ascended," is in the active voice which means the subject performs the action. Thus no man has ascended to heaven by his own action "but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man."

Joh 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. ​

 

[InSpiritandTruth]

These passages were written 700+ years after Elijah and Enoch. Thus no contradiction.

It really doesn't matter how many years after it was written, the point still stands. The passages do not say, except for Elijah and Enoch. The creation account written in Genesis was written how many years after it happened? Should we question was it written about it?

 

[Der Alte]

It really doesn't matter how many years after it was written, the point still stands. The passages do not say, except for Elijah and Enoch. The creation account written in Genesis was written how many years after it happened? Should we question was it written about it?

I realize that there are folks who will move heaven and earth desperately trying to find an error or contradiction in the Bible. I gave a valid exegetical explanation why the ascensions of Elijah and Enoch are not a contradiction. Yes, it does matter that the ascensions of Enoch and Elijah occurred 700+ years before the words in Rom 6:23, Heb 9:27. Paul was a Jew and would have known about Elijah and Enoch. Your objection might be valid if you can show me words similar to Rom 6:23, Heb 9:27 in the OT before Elijah and Enoch.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,​

 

[Jack Terrence]

I realize that there are folks who will move heaven and earth desperately trying to find an error or contradiction in the Bible. I gave a valid exegetical explanation why the ascensions of Elijah and Enoch are not a contradiction. Yes, it does matter that the ascensions of Enoch and Elijah occurred 700+ years before the words in Rom 6:23, Heb 9:27. Paul was a Jew and would have known about Elijah and Enoch. Your objection might be valid if you can show me words similar to Rom 6:23, Heb 9:27 in the OT before Elijah and Enoch.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,​

Elijah and Enoch did NOT ascend into heaven. Nothing is said about their going to heaven. They went down to sheol to "sleep" as all others did. Hebrew 11 includes Enoch in the list of those who "DIED in faith." Moses and Elijah were called up out of sheol to be with Jesus on the Mount. They assumed temporary bodies as Samuel had when he ascended out of sheol.

Jesus said that no man had ascended into heaven. If men could go to heaven before the cross, then there would have been no need for the cross. After the cross is another matter.

 

[Der Alte]

Elijah and Enoch did NOT ascend into heaven. Nothing is said about their going to heaven. They went down to sheol to "sleep" as all others did. Hebrew 11 includes Enoch in the list of those who "DIED in faith." Moses and Elijah were called up out of sheol to be with Jesus on the Mount. They assumed temporary bodies as Samuel had when he ascended out of sheol.

Jesus said that no man had ascended into heaven. If men could go to heaven before the cross, then there would have been no need for the cross. After the cross is another matter.

Guess you missed my post #25 where I explained that the word translated "ascended" is in the active voice. The active voice means that the subject performs the action. So "no man hath ascended up to heaven, by his own action, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man." It seems you are mistaken about what Heb 11 says about Enoch. I prefer to rely on the grammar of the original language rather than explanations designed to support a particular viewpoint.

Heb 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. ​

 

[InSpiritandTruth]

I realize that there are folks who will move heaven and earth desperately trying to find an error or contradiction in the Bible. I gave a valid exegetical explanation why the ascensions of Elijah and Enoch are not a contradiction. Yes, it does matter that the ascensions of Enoch and Elijah occurred 700+ years before the words in Rom 6:23, Heb 9:27. Paul was a Jew and would have known about Elijah and Enoch. Your objection might be valid if you can show me words similar to Rom 6:23, Heb 9:27 in the OT before Elijah and Enoch.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,​

I am not trying to move heaven and earth here. There is no contradiction as far as I am concerned. I could see your point if the verses were written before Elijah and Enoch. As you said, Paul would have known, and yet there is no contradiction. He wrote the verse knowingly. If there was a contradiction, Paul would have explained.

Hebrews 11:39-40 And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise, God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us.

 

[Jack Terrence]

,

Guess you missed my post #25 where I explained that the word translated "ascended" is in the active voice. The active voice means that the subject performs the action. So "no man hath ascended up to heaven, by his own action, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man." It seems you are mistaken about what Heb 11 says about Enoch. I prefer to rely on the grammar of the original language rather than explanations designed to support a particular viewpoint.

Heb 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. ​

It makes no difference that the verb is in the active voice. They ascended to the SKY, not to heaven. Their sins were not yet paid for and so they could not go to the presence of God.

The expression "to see death" has to do with the experience of the suffering of death. God spared Enoch from the suffering of death by instantly taking him. But he still died. Hebrews 11 explicitly says, "these ALL died in faith." This includes Enoch.

You render the cross totally unnecessary. You have men before the cross enjoying the presence of God when their sins were not yet atoned for. You need to rethink your position.

 

[Jack Terrence]

delete duplicate

 

[Der Alte]

, It makes no difference that the verb is in the active voice. They ascended to the SKY, not to heaven. Their sins were not yet paid for and so they could not go to the presence of God.

The expression "to see death" has to do with the experience of the suffering of death. God spared Enoch from the suffering of death by instantly taking him. But he still died. Hebrews 11 explicitly says, "these ALL died in faith." This includes Enoch.

You render the cross totally unnecessary. You have men before the cross enjoying the presence of God when their sins were not yet atoned for. You need to rethink your position.

Twisting scripture to support your assumptions/presuppositions. A lot of folks want to ignore the grammar of the original languages to make scripture support their assumptions/presuppositions. I would suggest that you do a bit of Bible research before making claims what "to see death" means. In the following verses the phrase "see death" clearly means to die.

Psa 89:48 What man is he that liveth, and shall not see death? shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave? Selah.

Luk 2:26 And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen the Lord's Christ.

Joh 8:51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.​

 

[Jack Terrence]

Twisting scripture to support your assumptions/presuppositions. A lot of folks want to ignore the grammar of the original languages to make scripture support their assumptions/presuppositions. I would suggest that you do a bit of Bible research before making claims what "to see death" means. In the following verses the phrase "see death" clearly means to die.

Psa 89:48 What man is he that liveth, and shall not see death? shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave? Selah.

Luk 2:26 And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen the Lord's Christ.

Joh 8:51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.​

You have failed to answer the obvious. If men could enjoy the presence of God before their sins were paid for, then the cross was not necessary. It's just that simple. John 8:51 refers to condemnation. "If a man keep my saying he shall never see death (condemnation)." You have just implied that a believer will never physically die. Lol!

Hebrews 11 says, "these ALL died in faith having NOT RECEIVED the promise." The promise was heaven. Therefore, they did not enter into heaven before the cross.

You accuse others of scripture twisting when you render the atoning work of Christ totally unnecessary.

 

[Berean777]

Hundreds of millions of Christians believe they will go to heaven when they die.
They believe their loved ones who have passed away are hopefully there even now.
Heaven is spoken of as the place of God's throne.
But how strange it is that Christ would say " No man hath ascended up to heaven ".
Did He mean the great men of the bible like Abraham, Noah, Moses, Elijah, and David are not in Heaven now?
I can't find any passage in the Bible that actually says " we will go to heaven when we die " or " When we get to heaven "
There is little about what we will be doing once we get to heaven in scripture if that was the case.
Is heaven really the reward of the righteous or does God have something else in mind for us?
Interestingly, you can find in ancient pagan religion , not the bible, that a soul goes to heaven at death.
What do you think is the future God has planned for us?

No one has ascended to heaven pre resurrection. Matthew 27:52-53. After his resurrection the flood gate was opened to his Father's house in heaven.
Heaven is the nexus of God an eternal realm not dictated by time and space.
We cease being points on a gps coordinates plane of existence and become functions of time and space, that is as Jesus could appear at any gps coordinate, therefore angels are not bound by time and space.
We shall live as Lords from heaven as Paul said.

 

[Blank Stair]

That's not true though. The OT talks about men whom God took to heaven so they did not die but left bodily.

In the NT it isn't saying anything but that no other man in bodily form ascended into Heaven. Souls aren't mentioned in that scripture. No bodily man but Jesus ascended to Heaven.

Hundreds of millions of Christians believe they will go to heaven when they die.
They believe their loved ones who have passed away are hopefully there even now.
Heaven is spoken of as the place of God's throne.
But how strange it is that Christ would say " No man hath ascended up to heaven ".
Did He mean the great men of the bible like Abraham, Noah, Moses, Elijah, and David are not in Heaven now?
I can't find any passage in the Bible that actually says " we will go to heaven when we die " or " When we get to heaven "
There is little about what we will be doing once we get to heaven in scripture if that was the case.
Is heaven really the reward of the righteous or does God have something else in mind for us?
Interestingly, you can find in ancient pagan religion , not the bible, that a soul goes to heaven at death.
What do you think is the future God has planned for us?

 

[Berean777]

This may be a little off topic, but everyone will see death. To say that Enoch or Elijah did not die, would seem a contradiction.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,

Enoch was taken and did not taste the pains of physical death, but none the less, he was taken from the earthly realm and this means his earthly body was translated and became no more.

Elijah on the other hand was taken by the chariot of God similar to Philip when he was taken to somewhere else. Elijah is shown to resurface somewhere else distant from the king of Judah in chronicles by the letter that was addressed to the king. The reason why Elijah was taken somewhere else is that so Elisha's ministry takes over. However Elijah sending the distant letter to the King that was the successor to the king in Kings when he was taken highlights that Elijah just like Philip would eventually taste death.

The difference between Enoch and Elijah is that Elijah tasted death and Enoch didn't, but both their earthly bodies died.

 

[Berean777]

Wait a minute you mean we're going to be watching Star Wars Episode 500,000,000,000,000 in Heaven

Seriously um where did you get your idea that we'd be watching movies,reading books,etc from?

 

[Berean777]

The graves of many Saints were opened and many were seen after Jesus death and resurrection . Were they spirits or body and spirit ?

Matthew 27:52-53 is the bodily resurrection where these Old Testament saints were the first fruits of the harvest to be raised into their incorruptible bodies like the Lord, only after his resurrection. These old covenant saints like Daniel were told to wait in their lot/place, until messiah came to raise them up as the many stars of heaven (Daniel 12).

They were like Jesus because they were seen by others and they went up into the Holy City which is heavenly New Jerusalem (Christ's Father's house). Then every new covenant believer in turn when they die, just like saint Stephen who was the first new covenant believer to join the first fruits of the harvest. He said in Acts 7 I see the heavens open and Jesus sitting on the right hand of power coming with the clouds. Then he would say Jesus receive my spirit. So Acts 7 is fulfilment of what the Angels said in Acts 1 that in like manner you will see the Lord return for that departed individual.

Paul would also say my time of my departure is at hand and now there is in store a crown of righteousness that the righteous Lord has already laid for me on the day of his appearing but not only me but also those who look forward to his appearing.

So the Lord's appearing since the first fruits graves were opened in fulfilment to Ezekiel 37:11-14 is when the symbol of death, the thief comes for that individual on a day and hour they know not to take them away by destroying their earthly house (body). Obviously this happened to Saint Stephan. Has been happening to every departed faithful since then.

Also another poster mentioned that Paul saw someone 14 years ago before he was even called Paul. He saw this man being taken up to the third heaven and he saw things spoken in the third heaven that no man is privy to. Yet Paul is well pleased to talk about this person. That person that Paul saw 14 years in the past is Saint Stephan whom he as Saul of tarsus was responsible for gathering his clothes as he saw a naked man being stoned to death as he said I see the heavens opened and Jesus sitting on the right hand of power.

 

[Berean777]

If you look at other translations like the NIV for example it says " No one has EVER gone into heaven " for John 3:16.
God's Word Translation says " No one has gone to heaven "
Peter echoed the same sentiment in Acts 2:34 " For David is not ascended into the heavens "
The apostles never taught that we would go to heaven.
The bible does not say that people like Elijah are in heaven, God's throne.
2 Kings 2:11 Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven. remember there are 3 heaven mentioned in the bible. The first one is our sky and clouds, the second one is space, the stars, etc. and the third heaven is God's spiritual realm. You won't be able to see the third one with a telescope.
Elijah was taken up in the air only and taken to a safe place. We learn later, that years later Elijah was alive still - 2 Chronicles 21:12-15.
Elijah and Enoch have not received the promise of eternal life yet. That will happen at the second coming of Jesus Christ.

That is because Elijah was taken somewhere else just like Philip was. Elijah writes a letter to the king that followed the king at the time the chariot took him away. So he is sending a letter from a distant place and this shows that he eventually dies just like any human being.

Promise to eternal life is after the testator dies for this crown of righteousness has already been banked for the individual and the individual can only receive it after they keep the faith onto the death. So the receipt of the promise happened after his resurrection and is happening to every departed faithful when they die. The living shall not hinder the dead from being raised before them.