no evidence for evolution

randman

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1. The fossil evidence doesn't show evolution occurring. Evolutionists claim they can fit the data into some models, but the same data can fit into other non-evolutionary models as well.
There is nothing about the fossil record to prove evolution.

2. Genetics: While the study of genetics is relatively young such that certain ideas should be taken with a grain of salt until they withstand the test of time, one thing we do know. Mutations are rare, and often not beneficial. It appears from genetics that evolution is unlikely.

3. Micro-evolution: This is what evolutionists used to rely on as proof, things like Darwin's finches, but as creationist models predict micro-evolution as well, there is no conclusive evidence for common descent here.

4. similarites of all life forms: This is just as much evidence of a Common Designer as it is for common descent.

5. Abiogenesis: Unlikely if not impossible for this to occur from natural processes. If, as evolutionists insist, natural processes can explain the origin of all species, why can it not explain adequately the origin of the first species under its scenario. This is the Achilles Heel of evolutionary theory, and basically destroys it though the proponents will insist on drawing a line in the process and excluding the development of the first cell from evolution as a semantic means of clinging to a dying myth.

6. Living systems: It is now theorized that whole species did not evolve for the most part, but rather isolated groups. If that is the case, why did so many of the original species go extinct. In other words, why don't see the halfway intermediary species still living? We see perhaps not one example, at least of something larger than a tiny creature, and even this is debatable. Basically, living systems don't appear to have evolved other than in a micro-manner.
 
The evidence for evolution is being discussed on the Evidence for Macroevolution thread:
http://www.christianforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=15534

Contrary to the subject of this post, there has been quite a little bit of evidence for evolution discussed there already, and more to come!

By the way, for newbies, neophytes, and stubborn creationists: abiogenesis is a separate hypothesis and has no bearing on evolution.
 
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randman

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The process of the development of life includes the first creature we all descended from. To sepearate that from the whole is just semantics and pure BS.

Uniformatarian principles cannot hold true if abiogenesis is not part of evolutionary theory.

All life is said to evolve. How did the first cell evolve then? From non-living matter? That is pure modern myth.
 
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Originally posted by randman
The process of the development of life includes the first creature we all descended from. To sepearate that from the whole is just semantics and pure BS.

Uniformatarian principles cannot hold true if abiogenesis is not part of evolutionary theory.

All life is said to evolve. How did the first cell evolve then? From non-living matter? That is pure modern myth.

The process of evolution and the process of the "development of life" are two very different ideas. Evolution seeks only to explain what why life takes on the forms that it does today, when in the past it was much simpler. Common descent is an inescapable conclusion that results from that explanation, and is, itself well supported by the evidence, particularly the genetic.

There is no uniformitarian principle of evolution that extends to the time before the first simple self-replicating life forms.

Why do you care so much about abiogenesis? Evolution cannot work without life to operate on... We take it as a given that life exists. Abiogenesis is about how life got here, and none of the abiogenetic hypotheses have shown any evidential support. Are you hoping to dilute the evidence for evolution by asking it to carry the evidentiary burden for abiogenesis? Is that your aim? Why? Do you need to discredit evolution that badly? Can you not manage it on evolution's own merits and problems?
 
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randman

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Evolutionary theory basically insists on similarities between species as evidence of common descent rather than a Common Designer, right?

In other words, you have 2 explanations for the data, and one is that a single Designer caused it, and another is common descent. That's the debate.

The idea then of common descent hinges on the idea that there is something to descend from, and thus must of necessity contain a plausible explanation for how this first life got here. If there is no plausible explanation, then the idea of a common Designer, or force even, carries more weight.
 
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seebs

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I think there's a difference between "no evidence which could not possibly be consistent with anything but evolution" and "no evidence for evolution".

I have no evidence for God's existance that can't be handwaved away as hallucination, coincidence, wishful thinking, or hearsay... and yet, He continues to exist anyway. At some point, it is reasonable to take an explanation which is consistent with all the available data.

As to the argument about abiogenesis: These are totally different things, just as a discussion of levitical law is very different from a discussion of Christian theories of salvation. Yes, they're part of the same story, but each of them has very different context - although one paves the way for the other.
 
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Originally posted by randman
Evolutionary theory basically insists on similarities between species as evidence of common descent rather than a Common Designer, right?

Homology between species is seen as a result of common descent in evolutionary theory. It could also be explained by a common designer. We have plenty of threads here that discuss the evidence for evolutionary theory and common descent, homology being one small part. There aren't any threads hwere that discuss the evidence for Design. Maybe you should start one.

In other words, you have 2 explanations for the data, and one is that a single Designer caused it, and another is common descent. That's the debate.

No, you have an infinite number of explanations for the data, some naturalistic, and some supernaturalistic. The naturalistic ones can be tested. Neodarwinian evolution is one of the naturalistic ones. It can be tested. The evidence is discussed in another thread.

Some folks deny the evidence for evolution. Therein lies the debate.

The idea then of common descent hinges on the idea that there is something to descend from,

Life exists provably, and demonstrably it existed in the distant past as well. Therefore this condition of common descent has already been fulfilled, and no discussion about how that life arrived here will have any further impact. It may well have arrived by spaceship from a distant star system where super-intelligent aliens are synthesizing primitave life in a lab then depositing it on likely looking planets, for all the difference it would make to evolution. Life exists, we need not speculate on how it got here to understand what it has done once it did arrive.

and thus must of necessity contain a plausible explanation for how this first life got here.

I have a plausible explanation. God created the first life and put it on the planet earth. If you will agree that my explanation is plausible then we can leave it to rest and discuss evolution.

If there is no plausible explanation, then the idea of a common Designer, or force even, carries more weight.

So the lack of a plausible explanation make a common Designer into a better explanation for the diversity of life on earth today, for their genetic and morphological homology and paralogy, for the clearly progressive morphological changes in the fossil record, and for the geographic distributions of living and extinct life forms that we perceive? What explanations does the common Designer hypothesis give for instance, for the fact that there were no mammals in the Devonian?
 
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This is for everyone here who doubts that evolution is scientific and based on evidence. Whether the evidences presented here are convincing to you is irrelevant -- that fact is that these are real evidences, and they do provide a means to falsify the theory.

You don't have to accept the theory as being true, but it is indisputable, in my opinion, that it is a scientific theory.

If you want to criticize these evidences, that's fine. But after you do that, I want someone to start a separate thread for their particular theory, whether it is creationism or intelligent design or whatever, and provide the following things:

1) evidence
2) testable predictions
3) a means to falsify the theory

All three are required for a theory to be considered scientific.

Before I go any further, I'd like to clarify what the scientific community considers as "evolution". Simply put, it is the idea that all living creatures (animal and plant) on Earth share a common ancestor. There is potential for variation within each species, and selective pressures can cause species to change over time as they adapt to changing conditions. Usually, it is a part of a species that adapts as it takes advantage of changing conditions.

One powerful technique for organizing life is a method called "cladistics", which groups organisms according to a common ancestor. All members of a "clade" must descend from a single ancestral species. Recently-formed clades, like hominids, (human-like apes) are relatively small. Ancient clades, like vertebrates, consist of huge groups of animals that descended from the first vertebrates.

For a theory to be considered "scientific", it must:

1. be based on verifiable and reproduceable evidence
2. make predictions that allow the theory to be falsified.

The two most important qualities of any theory are its explanatory power and its predictive capability. Evolution has both of these in spades. If it can't explain anything, then a theory is meaningless. If it can't predict anything, then it is not testable and cannot be falsified -- therefore it is not scientific.

Some evidence will be more convincing than others, and some falsifications are more testable than others --- but I am not a biologist. When predictions are tested, they either falsify the theory or not -- nothing can ever prove that any scientific theory is 100% true. However, when a theory is tested continuously and is never falsified, it becomes generally accepted by the scientific community as a fact. That is where evolution is at today, in my opinion.

Evidence 1: The fossil record

Far from being a weakness to evolution, the fossil record is one of its greatest strengths. The nature of common descent is that species have a distinct BEGINNING in time, and did not exist before their ancestral species. This is exactly what we see in the fossil record. The oldest rocks have evidence of single-celled life, followed by invertebrates, fish, amphibians and the reptiles. From reptiles onward, land-based life diversified greatly.

Prediction: no fossils of a species will be found in rocks preceding its ancestors.

Falsification: although there is always a 'gray area' as scientists try to pin down exactly when a species came into being, there are many, many ways for the fossil record to falsify evolution. For example, finding humans or large mammals in Mesozoic rocks or earlier would cause problems. Finding reptiles, mammals or birds in rocks from the Devonian or earlier would falsify evolution. Finding any vertebrates in pre-Cambrian rocks would be an earth-shaking scientific discovery. However, more and more fossils are found, and none falsify the theory of evolution.


Evidence 2: Variability within species

For evolution to work, there HAS to be variability within a species so that it can adapt to new surroundings. Obviously, natural selection is an unintelligent process, so it can take a long time for a species to drift to a new form. A "long time" might be 10,000 years -- long for a human, but a blink of an eye for geology. Humans are able to provide intelligent selective pressure on species to create change at a much faster rate.

Prediction: any species will change when subjected to selective pressure from humans

Falsification: any species that could not be "bred" for particular qualities would cause a problem for humans. But look at the animals that civilization has currently bred: dogs, cats, cattle, horses, pigs, chickens, etc. These were all "wild" animals that were domesticated by humans. But despite each being derived from a single species in the wild, humans have created countless varieties due to selective breeding. So while it is easy to say that "all dog varieties are still just dogs", the truth is that a fossil of a chihuahua and a fossil of a St. Bernard would most certainly be considered separate species in the fossil record.

Also, scientists breed mice, rats and bacteria in different ways for whatever scientific testing is needed. This would not be possible unless each species had inherent variability. And every time a new species is bred successfully for specific traits, it is another missed opportunity to falsify evolution.


Evidence 3: Vestigial structures in animals

Just as evolution can, over time, create new structures in animals, it can also eliminate structures that are no longer necessary. For example, the fossil record shows that whales evolved from mammals that returned to an aquatic lifestyle. However, the whale still grows "legs" in a way, but they are stunted and remained internal in the animals. Snakes are the same way. Both snakes and whales have vestigial pelvises, which cannot be easily explained without the idea that the animals evolved from ancestors that had legs.

Prediction: no species will have a vestigial structure that was not present in its ancestral species

Falsification: since birds (and feathers) evolved on a separate ancestral line than mammals, finding vestigial feathers on a mammal would falsify common descent. We should never find any invertebrates with vestigial backbones, and we should never find reptiles or birds with vestigial mammary glands. We do, however, find vestigial structures in many types of animals, but none that would falsify evolution.


Evidence 4: Shared characteristics among all living creatures

The idea of common descent implies that ALL living creatures descended from a common ancestor. One powerful evidence in favor of this is that all living creatures, from single-celled organisms to human beings, have similar structures on the cellular level that make life possible. The basic functions of replication and metabolism are accomplished with polymers on the cellular level. Of the hundreds of polymers known to exist, all life on Earth uses the same three types, regardless of species. Of the 250+ known amino acids, all proteins in living organisms are composed from a set of just 22. Note that there is overlap in the function of polymers and amino acids, and there is no reason why other polymers and amino acids cannot be used by different species. But every time DNA is sequenced for a new species, the same polymers and amino acids are used. The most logical conclusion is common descent.

Prediction: all forms of life will use the same, small subset of polymers and amino acids for their basic cellular functions.

Falsification: each time the DNA for a species is sequenced for the first time, evolution risks falsification on this point. If species were created spontaneously, there is no compelling reason why commonality like this would exist on the cellular level. That it does is an indication that our most ancient ancestors solved the problems of cellular activity in this way, and it have passed it down to their descendants.

This is stuff I know because I am familiar with the theory. I believe that the explanatory power of evolution far exceeds any of the alternatives, and it makes falsifiable predictions. I am not a biologist, but I hope that I have done the theory justice.
 
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Originally posted by randman
1. The fossil evidence doesn't show evolution occurring. Evolutionists claim they can fit the data into some models, but the same data can fit into other non-evolutionary models as well.
There is nothing about the fossil record to prove evolution.

Falsehood #1. See http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-transitional.html and http://www.asa3.org/ASA/resources/Miller.html

From the latter:

Transitional forms between higher taxa are thus a common feature of the fossil record, although continuous fossil lineages are rarely if ever preserved. Evidence from the fossil record is consistent with a wide range of proposed evolutionary mechanisms.

2. Genetics: While the study of genetics is relatively young such that certain ideas should be taken with a grain of salt until they withstand the test of time, one thing we do know. Mutations are rare, and often not beneficial. It appears from genetics that evolution is unlikely.

Falsehood #2. See http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/mutations.html

3. Micro-evolution: This is what evolutionists used to rely on as proof, things like Darwin's finches, but as creationist models predict micro-evolution as well, there is no conclusive evidence for common descent here.

Whether or not microevolution supports creationism is irrelevant to whether or not it supports evolution. Surely you don't mean to imply that microevolution is evidence against macroevolution?

4. similarites of all life forms: This is just as much evidence of a Common Designer as it is for common descent.

It is the specific types of similarities that provide support for evolution. See http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/section1.html#nested_hierarchy

5. Abiogenesis: Unlikely if not impossible for this to occur from natural processes. If, as evolutionists insist, natural processes can explain the origin of all species, why can it not explain adequately the origin of the first species under its scenario. This is the Achilles Heel of evolutionary theory, and basically destroys it though the proponents will insist on drawing a line in the process and excluding the development of the first cell from evolution as a semantic means of clinging to a dying myth.

Falsehood #3. From http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/:

In evolutionary theory it is taken as axiomatic that an original self-replicating life form existed in the distant past, regardless of its origin.

6. Living systems: It is now theorized that whole species did not evolve for the most part, but rather isolated groups. If that is the case, why did so many of the original species go extinct. In other words, why don't see the halfway intermediary species still living? We see perhaps not one example, at least of something larger than a tiny creature, and even this is debatable. Basically, living systems don't appear to have evolved other than in a micro-manner.

Halfway intermediate species? How about flying squirrels?
Or maybe nurse sharks? (halfway between sharks and rays)

And don't forget -- something like 99% of all species that ever existed are now extinct. Why did God go through the trouble of creating them at all? Or is God simply incompetent?
 
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MatthewDiscipleofGod

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"And don't forget -- something like 99% of all species that ever existed are now extinct. Why did God go through the trouble of creating them at all? Or is God simply incompetent?"

Hmm good question to ask him when you see him face to face. I could list many logical reasons for that but I think only hearing it from him would make you believe.
 
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randman

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"I have a plausible explanation. God created the first life and put it on the planet earth. If you will agree that my explanation is plausible then we can leave it to rest and discuss evolution."

If God then created the first life form, is it reasonable to think that He never intervened again?
 
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Originally posted by randman
"I have a plausible explanation. God created the first life and put it on the planet earth. If you will agree that my explanation is plausible then we can leave it to rest and discuss evolution."

If God then created the first life form, is it reasonable to think that He never intervened again?

It wouldn't be reasonable to assume that He never intervened again, though it wouldn't be reasonable to assume that He did, either. Apart from evidence that He did, we can not say with scientific accuracy whether He did or not.
 
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Originally posted by randman
"I have a plausible explanation. God created the first life and put it on the planet earth. If you will agree that my explanation is plausible then we can leave it to rest and discuss evolution."

If God then created the first life form, is it reasonable to think that He never intervened again?

Second reply: I gave a plausible explanation as to how the first life got here. Although it is irrelevant to evolution whether my explanation is correct or not, and either way, we cannot assume anything about God's future actions, I must point out that I did not prove that my explanation was correct - I only solicited agreement that it was plausible.

Having given an explanation (that you agree is plausible), we can leave it to others to see if there are other plausible explanations as well, whether any of the plausible explanations can be supported by evidence, etc... You and I can safely get on with our discussion of evolution.
 
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randman

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Jerry, you have heard my objections. After awhile, this game gets boring. No offense, but I am not looking to talk to brick walls. You have been more reasonable than most, but then again you consider LFOD's frequently imbecilic posts to have merit.

I hope you can see from these discusssion the past few days why people like myself don't trust the evolutionist community, and feel they resort to propoganda. if you cannot, maybe you should reread the threads.

Obviously, you are not changing your mind, nor am I mine. My only hope is that you come to the conclusion that reasonable people can look at the evidence and reasonably doubt evolution. If not, think about our objections a little more. I can assure you that I once believed, but don't anymore and that the fossil record is a big part of what changed my mind.
 
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Originally posted by Jerry Smith

The process of evolution and the process of the "development of life" are two very different ideas. Evolution seeks only to explain what why life takes on the forms that it does today, when in the past it was much simpler.

Randman is perfectly right that evolution and abiogeneis are inseparable. Only recently have evolutionists started to divorce themselves from abiogenesis, and not without good reason. It's gotten far too embarrassing to continue propping up spontaneous generation. It's much easier to believe in evolution because the interpretation of evidence is malleable and you can make it seem like anything you want, as long as you avoid certain problems.

But abiogenesis isn't that easy. It's so obvious that abiogenesis didn't occur that the only chance of hanging on to a shred of dignity after spending so much time and energy researching a blind alley, you MUST cling to the possibility that life evolved after God created it, otherwise everything you pride yourself on - your knowledge, your intellect - amounts to dirty rags at best.

The worst part of it all is that dang God had to explain it all as creation in such plain and obvious ways in so many parts of the Bible. So now you have THREE problems on your hands -- abiogenesis, the lack of supporting evidence for evolution, and the Bible's plain meaning.

So you have to ignore the plain meaning of Genesis and all the many other texts of the Bible that clearly position God as the creator of all things, not just some being who whipped up the first living cell and then watched it cook -- and cook WRONG.

After all, as you never fail to remind us daily, man is without the ability to manufacture vitamin C.

Now that was a brillint plan on God's part, wasn't it? First he deliberately misleads us about creation by writing up a lot of plain sounding text which we're supposed to interpret as allegory. Then he whips up a cell and lets it come up with some of the stupidest combinations possible. Then he throws up His hands and says, "Hey, don't blame me. It wasn't my fault. I left it all up to chance, descent with modification, etc. How was I to know it was going to produce measles, AIDS, and the inability to create vitamin C? Don't blame me. I'm too stupid to know how to write text with plain meaing that's easy to understand - how do you expect me to predict the dumb things those genes were going to do?"

Of course, it doesn't matter at all that the text comes right and and tells you up front why everything is screwed up. You would rather ignore the plain meaning and write that off as allegory along with creation and everything else that doesn't harmonize with your a-priori conclusions.

After all, if God worked that way, he might actually have expected us to take things like fossile evidence at face value. Like the guy who picks up a watch and concludes that it was designed. Nah. Too easy. Where's the fun in that? If you can't use your imagination to come up with really contrived ways things happened by accident, what else would there be to do all day? ;)
 
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