No Doubt Some Are Predestined....Do Some Get To Choose?

[MrJG]

What does Joshua telling the people to choose between two false belief systems have to do with anything?

Matthew Henry put it this way:

"Joshua fairly puts the matter to their choice, Jos_24:15. Here, [1.] He proposes the candidates that stand for the election. The Lord, Jehovah, on one side, and on the other side either the gods of their ancestors, which would pretend to recommend themselves to those that were fond of antiquity, and that which was received by tradition from their fathers, or the gods of their neighbours, the Amorites, in whose land they dwelt, which would insinuate themselves into the affections of those that were complaisant and fond of good fellowship."

 

[VCViking]

Spurgeon saw as I see it. God is sovereign. Man is responsible. There was no greater "Calvinist" than Spurgeon, and I, too, am Calvinist. Both of "us" (as though I could put myself in the realm of Spurgeon) see the limited call of God as ludicrous.

Spurgeon: "Sovereign Grace and Man's Responsibility" Delivered Aug. 1, 1858, at the Music Hall, Royal Surrey Gardens.

Sovereign Grace and Man's Responsibility

The system of truth is not one straight line, but two. No man will ever get a right view of the gospel until he knows how to look at the two lines at once. I am taught in one book to believe that what I sow I shall reap: I am taught in another place, that "it is not of him that willeth nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy." I see in one place, God presiding over all in providence; and yet I see, and I cannot help seeing, that man acts as he pleases, and that God has left his actions to his own will, in a great measure. Now, if I were to declare that man was so free to act, that there was no presidence of God over his actions, I should be driven very near to Atheism; and if, on the other hand, I declare that God so overrules all things, as that man is not free enough to be responsible, I am driven at once into Antinomianism or fatalism. That God predestines, and that man is responsible, are two things that few can see. They are believed to be inconsistent and contradictory; but they are not. It is just the fault of our weak judgment. Two truths cannot be contradictory to each other. If, then, I find taught in one place that everything is fore-ordained, that is true; and if I find in another place that man is responsible for all his actions, that is true; and it is my folly that leads me to imagine that two truths can ever contradict each other. These two truths, I do not believe, can ever be welded into one upon any human anvil, but one they shall be in eternity: they are two lines that are so nearly parallel, that the mind that shall pursue them farthest, will never discover that they converge; but they do converge, and they will meet somewhere in eternity, close to the throne of God, whence all truth doth spring.
​

Specifically to the issue of the call, Spurgeon says in mid-sermon:

Oh! God does plead with men that they would be saved, and this day he says to every one of you, "Repent, and be converted for the remission of your sins. Turn ye unto me. Thus saith the Lord of hosts; consider your ways." And with love divine he woos you as a father woos his child, putting out his hands and crying, "Come unto me, come unto me." "No," says one strong-doctrine man, "God never invites all men to himself; he invites none but certain characters." Stop, sir, that is all you know about it. Did you ever read that parable where it is said, My oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready; come unto the marriage." And they that were bidden would not come. And did you never read that they all began to make excuse, and that they were punished because they did not accept the invitations. Now, if the invitation is not to be made to anybody, but to the man who will accept it, how can that parable be true? The fact is, the oxen and fatlings are killed; the wedding feast is ready, and the trumpet sounds, "Ho every one that thirsteth, come and eat, come and drink." Here are the provisions spread, here is an all-sufficiency; the invitation is free; it is a great invitation. "Whosoever will, let him come and take of the water of life freely." And that invitation is couched in tender words, "Come to me, my child, come to me." "All day long I have stretched forth my hands."
​

There is much more. It is one of the greatest sermons/messages ever delivered setting the doctrine of God's sovereignty and man's free will side by side and proving the co-exist. Dare to read it.

 

[Pisteuo428]

You seem to be ignoring some of Scripture:

But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD” (Joshua 24:15 NIV).

How does that verse fit in with your theology?

In Christ, Oz

Oz,

Why would it seem undesirable for some of the readers to serve the true God? Allow the Word of God to answer...

"There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God." (Romans 3:11 KJV)

Since there are people who genuinely desire to serve the Lord it is obviously because He intervenes to enable, motivate, and make them affix themselves to the Truth.

"And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated." (Romans 9:10-13 KJV)

Those ancient Israelite saints who clung to the Lord and served only Him were called by Him to be His saints, for He loved them even before the foundation of the cosmos. Those individuals who did not desire to serve the Lord were as they were -- serving idols and probably practicing will worship -- because God did not want them in the first place.

As for them choosing which false religion to subscribe to, either worshiping the gods their ancestors served beyond the Euphrates or the gods of the Amorites, that's obvious...

"The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?" (Jeremiah 17:9 KJV)

Man can choose which false gods to worship out of the free will of his fallen and corrupt nature. I'll give him that!

In conclusion, there are a lot of passages in Scripture that speak of choosing God or something else, oh yes, but what is it that motivates one to choose God or a false god?

Before I was a Christian I was an idolator, blasphemer, fornicator, and a drunkard who despised the Saints and had no intention of believing on Jesus. But look what happened -- God saved me! I read the words of Jesus, wept, and my heart became affixed to Him.

"And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father." (John 6:65 KJV)

Glory be to God, my Savior, whose grace is profound.

 

[someguy14]

We have a certain amount of things to eat. What's for dinner?

 

[Hupomone10]

I believe that's what I said.

It isn't.

God never changed His Mind, that would imply a imperfect God, not a Infinite omnipotent, omniscient

Exodus 32:14
So the LORD changed His mind about the harm which He said He would do to His people.

Jeremiah 26:19
"Did he not fear the LORD and entreat the favor of the LORD, and the LORD changed His mind about the misfortune which He had pronounced against them? But we are committing a great evil against ourselves."

Amos 7:3
The LORD changed His mind about this. "It shall not be," said the LORD.

Amos 7:6
The LORD changed His mind about this. "This too shall not be," said the Lord GOD.

The scripture says directly, literally, with no suggestion that it is symbolic, figurative, metaphorical, any other way of getting around it, that He changed His mind.

Do you believe the Scriptures?

Do you believe God has arms and hands too?

So you believe this passage, and the others I've now added, to be figurative like the ones where God mentions His hands? Could you cite some commentaries other than yourself to say this is symbolic language, and some support from the context itself saying it is this? I know of some weak explanations, but I'm not aware of any that insinuated it was symbolic like hands and feet.

It doesn't matter to me whatever you believe. I just thought you might like to know about these verses because of what you said. I thought you would be interested.

Blessings,
H.

 

[B-74]

Do you believe God has arms and hands too?

I do.

 

[B-74]

Exodus 32:14
So the LORD changed His mind about the harm which He said He would do to His people.

Jeremiah 26:19
"Did he not fear the LORD and entreat the favor of the LORD, and the LORD changed His mind about the misfortune which He had pronounced against them? But we are committing a great evil against ourselves."

Amos 7:3
The LORD changed His mind about this. "It shall not be," said the LORD.

Amos 7:6
The LORD changed His mind about this. "This too shall not be," said the Lord GOD.

Thanks for sharing that. I thought God never changed His mind, we learn something new all time. God is awesome. Thanks brother.

 

[Hammster]

It isn't.

Exodus 32:14
So the LORD changed His mind about the harm which He said He would do to His people.

Jeremiah 26:19
"Did he not fear the LORD and entreat the favor of the LORD, and the LORD changed His mind about the misfortune which He had pronounced against them? But we are committing a great evil against ourselves."

Amos 7:3
The LORD changed His mind about this. "It shall not be," said the LORD.

Amos 7:6
The LORD changed His mind about this. "This too shall not be," said the Lord GOD.

The scripture says directly, literally, with no suggestion that it is symbolic, figurative, metaphorical, any other way of getting around it, that He changed His mind.

Do you believe the Scriptures?

So you believe this passage, and the others I've now added, to be figurative like the ones where God mentions His hands? Could you cite some commentaries other than yourself to say this is symbolic language, and some support from the context itself saying it is this? I know of some weak explanations, but I'm not aware of any that insinuated it was symbolic like hands and feet.

It doesn't matter to me whatever you believe. I just thought you might like to know about these verses because of what you said. I thought you would be interested.

Blessings,
H.

If God changes His mind in the sense that you think He does, wouldn't that make Him a liar?

 

[Emmy]

Predestination....Do Some Get To Choose?
Dear jomarc. God has given us free will to choose, either His Way, or our own way. Those that seem predestined, have in them what is needed for that paticular role. God does NOT force us, however God sees our past and futures at a glance. Remember that God is allpowerful and all-knowing, God is the Almighty God, who loves us and wants us back again.
We moved away from God, then Jesus God-Son, born of woman, paid the prize which we could not pay, there was no-one left without Sin or Transgression. God wants our love, freely given and no force used ever. Jesus told us in Matthew. " The first and great Commandment is: Love God with all our hearts, with all your souls, and with all your minds. The second is: Love our neighbour as ourselves. On these two Commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets." God is our Heavenly Father, who is ALL Love.
As for teaching us to become as God wants us to be: There is the eternal Law of Justice: " Whatever we sow we will also reap." Rewards for Good, and fitting consequences for Not Good or even wrong and evil. Paul tells us in Galations, chapter 6, verse 7: and God will not be mocked. I say this with love, jomarc. Greetings from Emmy, sister in Christ.

 

[MrJG]

Matthew Henry put it this way:

"Joshua fairly puts the matter to their choice, Jos_24:15. Here, [1.] He proposes the candidates that stand for the election. The Lord, Jehovah, on one side, and on the other side either the gods of their ancestors, which would pretend to recommend themselves to those that were fond of antiquity, and that which was received by tradition from their fathers, or the gods of their neighbours, the Amorites, in whose land they dwelt, which would insinuate themselves into the affections of those that were complaisant and fond of good fellowship."

Oz,

Why would it seem undesirable for some of the readers to serve the true God? Allow the Word of God to answer...

"There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God." (Romans 3:11 KJV)

Since there are people who genuinely desire to serve the Lord it is obviously because He intervenes to enable, motivate, and make them affix themselves to the Truth.

"And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated." (Romans 9:10-13 KJV)

Those ancient Israelite saints who clung to the Lord and served only Him were called by Him to be His saints, for He loved them even before the foundation of the cosmos. Those individuals who did not desire to serve the Lord were as they were -- serving idols and probably practicing will worship -- because God did not want them in the first place.

As for them choosing which false religion to subscribe to, either worshiping the gods their ancestors served beyond the Euphrates or the gods of the Amorites, that's obvious...

"The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?" (Jeremiah 17:9 KJV)

As M. Henry said in my previous post, the choice was between the two false religions or God. They chose God out their own will.

Man can choose which false gods to worship out of the free will of his fallen and corrupt nature. I'll give him that!

In conclusion, there are a lot of passages in Scripture that speak of choosing God or something else, oh yes, but what is it that motivates one to choose God or a false god?

Before I was a Christian I was an idolator, blasphemer, fornicator, and a drunkard who despised the Saints and had no intention of believing on Jesus. But look what happened -- God saved me! I read the words of Jesus, wept, and my heart became affixed to Him.

"And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father." (John 6:65 KJV)

Glory be to God, my Savior, whose grace is profound.

The Holy Spirit draws men to the truth of Jesus Christ. Man is totally depraved in that he does not seek after God, but his will is not in bondage to where he can not choose God when he is drawn of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Skala]

Predestination....Do Some Get To Choose?
Dear jomarc. God has given us free will to choose, either His Way, or our own way. Those that seem predestined, have in them what is needed for that paticular role. God does NOT force us, however God sees our past and futures at a glance. Remember that God is allpowerful and all-knowing, God is the Almighty God, who loves us and wants us back again.
We moved away from God, then Jesus God-Son, born of woman, paid the prize which we could not pay, there was no-one left without Sin or Transgression. God wants our love, freely given and no force used ever. Jesus told us in Matthew. " The first and great Commandment is: Love God with all our hearts, with all your souls, and with all your minds. The second is: Love our neighbour as ourselves. On these two Commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets." God is our Heavenly Father, who is ALL Love.
As for teaching us to become as God wants us to be: There is the eternal Law of Justice: " Whatever we sow we will also reap." Rewards for Good, and fitting consequences for Not Good or even wrong and evil. Paul tells us in Galations, chapter 6, verse 7: and God will not be mocked. I say this with love, jomarc. Greetings from Emmy, sister in Christ.

Where the Bible speaks of predestination it is clearly referring to salvation, not just to special jobs or privileges.

See Eph 1:4-11, Romans 8:29-30, Acts 13:48, 1 Corinthians, 2 Thess 2:13, etc.

Also, being predestined doesn't mean that God "forces" you. It means that God's grace, in changing your heart, has made you willing. Being willing isn't the same as being forced.

 

[MrJG]

Where the Bible speaks of predestination it is clearly referring to salvation, not just to special jobs or privileges.

See Eph 1:4-11, Romans 8:29-30, Acts 13:48, 1 Corinthians, 2 Thess 2:13, etc.

Also, being predestined doesn't mean that God "forces" you. It means that God's grace, in changing your heart, has made you willing. Being willing isn't the same as being forced.

I think when she said "predestined...for that particular role" she did not mean special privileges or jobs, but of being a Christian, accepting Christ.

At least, that is what I took from it. I could be wrong. Its been known to happen before...once or twice I think...

Nope, just once...I remember now