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No Doubt Some Are Predestined....Do Some Get To Choose?

Discussion in 'Baptists' started by jomarc, Feb 11, 2012.

  1. jomarc

    jomarc Newbie

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    Is the following "thought" or "belief" supported by scripture:

    It would appear that God has elected/chosen some for salvation and for his service. These folks were in God's plan from the beginning of time. [the 12 disciples, Paul, the Billy Graham's, your current pastor, Bible study teacher, etc].

    Is it possible that God puts these above "chosen" in place so that He can use them so that the rest of the world can choose whether or not they wish to follow Christ.

    Just sayin'. That's kind of the way I see things.

    I certainly welcome your thoughts.

    FYI: I do believe that grasping predestination is really out of our hands, and it is senseless to argue about it. What is important is that we evangelize whether we adhere to the Calvinist point of view or the Arminian point of view......and also that we believe the Bible in its entirety.
     
  2. ashout

    ashout As Tall as Goliath and as fearsome too!

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    in my opinion EVERYONE has to choose, for all have sinned and need to choose either christ or death.
     
  3. iLogos

    iLogos Gal 5:16 So Walk In The Spirit!

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    Some points to think about,

    Do you believe there is a Will of God?

    Do you believe there is the element of chance?

    How could God carry out His Will if there was an element of chance?

    Do you believe God is always in control?

    Do you think man can interrupt or delay God's Will?
     
  4. Pisteuo428

    Pisteuo428 iBelieve

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    This opinion sounds nice, but scripture convinces me of something truly great.

    Nobody can choose to turn to God (Romans 3:11) and so intervention is obviously required; that's why the Father draws individuals to Jesus (John 6:44). Before the foundation of the world the Father, out of His grace, chose whom will believe on His Son (Ephesians 1:4-6). If He chose us based on some foreseen faith (which would leave out Paul, obviously) then it is not really by grace that we are saved.

    It is quite humbling to know that the Lord thy God has loved you before creation even existed and that He willed for you to believe on Christ Jesus so that you would be blameless and acceptable before Him. His love will not fail you -- great things are waiting for you and all of us whom He loves and selected for salvation (Revelation 22:12).
     
  5. 98cwitr

    98cwitr Lord forgive me Staff Member Moderator Supporter

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    ^^^exactly. :thumbsup:


    John 6 contradicts your train of thought.
     
  6. WinBySurrender

    WinBySurrender New Member

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    Spurgeon saw as I see it. God is sovereign. Man is responsible. There was no greater "Calvinist" than Spurgeon, and I, too, am Calvinist. Both of "us" (as though I could put myself in the realm of Spurgeon) see the limited call of God as ludicrous.

    Spurgeon: "Sovereign Grace and Man's Responsibility" Delivered Aug. 1, 1858, at the Music Hall, Royal Surrey Gardens.

    Sovereign Grace and Man's Responsibility

    The system of truth is not one straight line, but two. No man will ever get a right view of the gospel until he knows how to look at the two lines at once. I am taught in one book to believe that what I sow I shall reap: I am taught in another place, that "it is not of him that willeth nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy." I see in one place, God presiding over all in providence; and yet I see, and I cannot help seeing, that man acts as he pleases, and that God has left his actions to his own will, in a great measure. Now, if I were to declare that man was so free to act, that there was no presidence of God over his actions, I should be driven very near to Atheism; and if, on the other hand, I declare that God so overrules all things, as that man is not free enough to be responsible, I am driven at once into Antinomianism or fatalism. That God predestines, and that man is responsible, are two things that few can see. They are believed to be inconsistent and contradictory; but they are not. It is just the fault of our weak judgment. Two truths cannot be contradictory to each other. If, then, I find taught in one place that everything is fore-ordained, that is true; and if I find in another place that man is responsible for all his actions, that is true; and it is my folly that leads me to imagine that two truths can ever contradict each other. These two truths, I do not believe, can ever be welded into one upon any human anvil, but one they shall be in eternity: they are two lines that are so nearly parallel, that the mind that shall pursue them farthest, will never discover that they converge; but they do converge, and they will meet somewhere in eternity, close to the throne of God, whence all truth doth spring.
    Specifically to the issue of the call, Spurgeon says in mid-sermon:
    Oh! God does plead with men that they would be saved, and this day he says to every one of you, "Repent, and be converted for the remission of your sins. Turn ye unto me. Thus saith the Lord of hosts; consider your ways." And with love divine he woos you as a father woos his child, putting out his hands and crying, "Come unto me, come unto me." "No," says one strong-doctrine man, "God never invites all men to himself; he invites none but certain characters." Stop, sir, that is all you know about it. Did you ever read that parable where it is said, My oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready; come unto the marriage." And they that were bidden would not come. And did you never read that they all began to make excuse, and that they were punished because they did not accept the invitations. Now, if the invitation is not to be made to anybody, but to the man who will accept it, how can that parable be true? The fact is, the oxen and fatlings are killed; the wedding feast is ready, and the trumpet sounds, "Ho every one that thirsteth, come and eat, come and drink." Here are the provisions spread, here is an all-sufficiency; the invitation is free; it is a great invitation. "Whosoever will, let him come and take of the water of life freely." And that invitation is couched in tender words, "Come to me, my child, come to me." "All day long I have stretched forth my hands."
    There is much more. It is one of the greatest sermons/messages ever delivered setting the doctrine of God's sovereignty and man's free will side by side and proving the co-exist. Dare to read it.
     
  7. iLogos

    iLogos Gal 5:16 So Walk In The Spirit!

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    I liked his ending in that sermon..

    Good read.

    (btw, you can get Spurgeon's complete sermon collection free for theWord)
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2012
  8. Raymond M

    Raymond M Newbie

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    Pastors, teachers and the like are no better Christians then you or me. We are all human and still have to repent and ask God for forgiveness all the same. They might have a better understanding of the bible..but you can learn just as well like any other person who puts effort into it. Predestination and the like are very complicated manners. For I think that is one of things that is beyond our human understanding.
     
  9. WinBySurrender

    WinBySurrender New Member

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    Amen, to both of you. The end of that sermon is worth reading again and again, and it is beyond doubt that the mere mind of a man cannot digest the mysteries of God. Glad you enjoyed the sermon ...
     
  10. Hupomone10

    Hupomone10 Veteran

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    (winbySurrender: don't bother reading, this is too long for you :))

    Greetings Jomarc,
    Keep in mind that the idea of God electing or choosing those who will be saved goes against the grain to the mind of man, man's flesh.

    Keep in mind also that few who believe in election adequately explain it, indicating that maybe as your last comment says, they don't understand it either.

    And also, those who don't believe in election at all cannot explain, at least adequately to me, those passages that teach election.

    With those things in mind, I still don't think the whole of the message teaches that election only applies to select apostles, missionaries, preachers, etc. There are some passages that do refer to them, and are taken out of context otherwise. Most notable among them is "you did not choose me, but I chose you" (John 15:16). Jesus said that to his disciples in particular, not to me, evidenced by the later words "and ordained you...". In any given scripture, there is only one interpretation but many applications. An application may be made to me, but I must be careful with that.

    Anyway, I think election refers to all believers. We don't know who they are; and in this present age of grace, it is only confirmed by "whosoever will," but the elect is all of us.

    Election takes into account every gene of your being, all your ancestors, every life experience you have, and all of it works together and is known and superintended by God. Bottom line - He could have placed your soul in Googladesh, India, and you might never have heard the gospel.
     
  11. iLogos

    iLogos Gal 5:16 So Walk In The Spirit!

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    I resisted Calvinism for a long time, even now there is a part of me that still resists! Truth be told, I did not like Calvinism, simply because I did not like Calvinism!

    There are many great attempts by man to explain all this, depending on what explanation works best for you. For me, having read a few books and commentaries, what really hit home for me was Boettner's brief intro..

    Consider the alternatives, a God dependent on man's will. How could God's Will ever be carried out if it was dependent on man's will at any level?

    That there is Intelligent Design in this world, universe, and even down to the smallest quantum particle, there is no denying. That God is not only the designer but also in full control at all times should be no less amazing. To assume that God put all this in motion only to see what man will do is IMHO ludicrous.

    God can not change His Mind, plan. he is not at the mercy of man's will. We are at the mercy of God's Will. There can be no other way.
     
  12. Osage Bluestem

    Osage Bluestem Galatians 5:1

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    God chooses. Man doesn't.
     
  13. Hupomone10

    Hupomone10 Veteran

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    Because God in His sovereignty factored it in from the beginning. He can at all times let man think he is making his own decisions, and yet at the time he's doing so he is fulfilling God's ultimate will in some form or fashion.

    Yes it is. But it is more complicated than that.
    Genesis 6:6
    And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

    Exodus 32:14
    So the LORD changed His mind about the harm which He said He would do to His people.

    God could not say this unless at some level He lived in the moment and allowed Himself to be sorry for what had happened. It doesn't mean He is any less in control. We put God's control and sovereignty under our own constraints by placing our spin on His truth. We must take all of His truth, even if we can't logically fit it together.



     
  14. iLogos

    iLogos Gal 5:16 So Walk In The Spirit!

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    I believe that's what I said.
    God never changed His Mind, that would imply a imperfect God, not a Infinite omnipotent, omniscient, God is the same today as yesterday. That God uses language for man to be able to reflect on is common. Do you believe God has arms and hands too?
     
  15. iLogos

    iLogos Gal 5:16 So Walk In The Spirit!

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    Agreed.

    I would add,

    God chooses, man thinks he does. :)
     
  16. OzSpen

    OzSpen Regular Member

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    You seem to be ignoring some of Scripture:
    How does that verse fit in with your theology?

    In Christ, Oz
     
  17. Hammster

    Hammster Well-Known Member Supporter

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    While there are some aspects of predestination that are a mystery, there are other aspects that are clear. So to classify it as an area not worth pondering is a mistake.
     
  18. Hammster

    Hammster Well-Known Member Supporter

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    What does Joshua telling the people to choose between two false belief systems have to do with anything?
     
  19. Skala

    Skala I'm a Saint. Not because of me, but because of Him

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    We're saved by free will.

    But it's the free will of a sovereign God.
     
    WinBySurrender likes this.
  20. Skala

    Skala I'm a Saint. Not because of me, but because of Him

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