No, Boy Scouts Of America: “Tolerance” Isn’t Good Enough

[IzzyPop]

It's pointless. You guys don't believe in traditional marriage. It's called moral decline, and it's happening right now. Our society will be doomed if it keeps going like this.

Which traditional marraige don't I believe in again? The one where I trade livestock for my wife? The one where I get to have multiple wives? The one where my wife is selected for me by my parents?

And as for moral decline, I will gladly trade a mildly uncomfortable loosening of sexual mores in return for people of different skin colors being able to use the same drinking fountain. YMMV.

 

[Cearbhall]

I do want to get married one day. If they want to get married, instead of making people for it to be legalized, where even people here in the biggest blue state don't want, they should be fighting to get government involvement out of marriage.

...but that's not what they want. Most heterosexual people like it the way it is, so why would you expect other people to feel any differently?

Or they can call it something else besides marriage. What are they doing it for? benefits? Marriage is a union made to have kids and raise a family.

I agree that it was put in place in order to encourage the family unit, which has been shown to be beneficial for the raising of children, but the fact that this function is not enforced means that it cannot be used as an argument without denying certain heterosexual people the right to marry.

 

[I Eat Pie]

How do you know most heterosexual people want it that way?

Not enforced by who?

Didn't they used to check for syphilis when people wanted to get marriage licenses? They should deny people who have serious physical or mental disorders, or have bad smoking or drinking habits, because they can pass that on to kids.

 

[Cearbhall]

Not every couple has kids, but marriage is meant to have kids and raise a family. And family is the backbone of society. Why would you want to degrade it for your own personal gains?

Your opinion that marriage without children is degrading doesn't have any more weight on the logic of legalizing same-sex marriage than it does on the legal right of senior citizens and other infertile opposite-sex couples to marry. No opposite-sex couple has to answer that question, so why should a same-sex couple?

I agree. Infertile people shouldn't be getting married.

Don't put words in IzzyPop's mouth.

Shouldn't, or shouldn't be allowed to?

 

[I Eat Pie]

Well senior citizens have paid their dues I suppose.... I guess we can make an exception to them. Might as well considering many of them contributed to the country whether it be taxes or military or child bearing.

Shouldn't. Marriage should be for people who want to raise families. If people want some other sort of union, then let them call it something else, not marriage.

 

[Cearbhall]

It's pointless.

I have to agree with you there. The cultural shift toward acceptance keeps speeding up. Here's a comprehensive article with wonderful graphs. As you can see, 58% of Americans now support the legalization of same-sex marriage. When you look at only those people who were born in 1981 or later, that statistic rises to 70%.

You guys don't believe in traditional marriage.

By traditional marriage, do you mean polygamy, marriages for treaties and/or business connections, or cradle-robbing your neighbor so that you have someone to bear you a whole team of free labor for your farm? All of which were non-consensual for at least one party, by the way.

If you mean the first world, 20th century definition of traditional marriage in which two legal adults of opposite legal sexes consent to marry, then yes, I support it. You don't see me lining up to vote against my right to marry someone of the opposite sex, do you?

 

[I Eat Pie]

No, I mean a man and a woman. Coming from an agnostic, I assume that you think of the US as a secular nation? If so, why bring the Bible into it?

 

[Cearbhall]

It's called moral decline, and it's happening right now. Our society will be doomed if it keeps going like this.

You're free to hold that opinion. Personally, I see a bright future ahead of us and am glad that the world has become continually more tolerant over the past several centuries. People said we would be doomed every time social change loomed on the horizon.

And as for moral decline, I will gladly trade a mildly uncomfortable loosening of sexual mores in return for people of different skin colors being able to use the same drinking fountain. YMMV.

Yep, I really long for the days when I wouldn't have been able to vote, own property, or have my husband charged for raping me. What morals those people had!

 

[I Eat Pie]

The world has gotten more tolerant? No. Muslim extremists, Iran, and Russia still want us dead. Why should only we be tolerant when others are not tolerant of us? I see a very dark future coming soon.

 

[Cearbhall]

Right. Christians who are gay. Homosexuality is against the Bible. What kind of Christians are these? What do they think of what God says about homosexuality?

Oh boy. This is going to be a long one.

First of all, I was raised Catholic, and the Catholic Church only has a problem with sexual activity between members of the same sex. The Catholic Church couldn't care less about the fact that different sexual orientations exist. Their only instruction for LGBT Christians is that they shouldn't have sex outside of opposite-sex marriage, which is the same rule that they say to heterosexual Christians. They sincerely hope that all LGBT Catholics continue to call themselves Catholic, so bring it up with the Pope.

Second of all, there are a couple different levels to this.

First, there's the matter of whether it's wrong to identify as LGBT. The Catholic Church says there's no problem with that, and I can't think of an LGBT person that I know, Catholic or not, who thinks it's wrong. Actually, I can't remember anyone, Catholic or not, saying explicitly in my presence that it's wrong to identify as LGBT, and I've been going to Catholic educational institutions for 15 years now.

The next level is whether or not same-sex marriage should be legalized. Even my more conservative Christian high school friends said that same-sex unions with full rights should be legalized, albeit without the use of the word "marriage." I think I might have a couple college friends who are against legal recognition altogether because there's a bigger mix of backgrounds at my college than at my high school. Remember that two-thirds of my generation is religious and 70% support the legalization of same-sex marriage. You do the math.

The next level is whether or not it's wrong to participate in sexual activity with someone of the same sex. I definitely know people who think it's wrong because I know that I have friends who think pre-marital sex is immoral, but I would say that the majority of the Christians my age whom I know don't believe that sex with someone of the same sex will send you to Hell. They just feel that it's one of the parts of the Bible that was added by a human without God's approval, just like the line a couple verses before that one that says it's immoral to have sex with a woman while she's on her period.

In summary, yes, Christians who are gay. And bi. And lesbian. And transgender, asexual, pansexual, and allied. What a concept.

P.S. In order to ensure that this doesn't get moderated for seeming to say that homosexuality is reconcilable with Christian values, I would like to make it clear that I am only reporting what I have witnessed and been told throughout my life. I am not Christian and therefore have no opinion about what does or does not fit within Christian values.

 

[I Eat Pie]

1 Corinthians 6:9-10 - "Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God."

 

[USincognito]

Boy Scouts Of America, isn't that a private group, that's supposed to follow Gods laws?

No. They're not Hasidic Jews.

For a very long time BSA hasn't had a particular religion in mind with the reference to God in the Scout Oath. It's similar to the Freemasons in that aspect. You just have to be religious, or at least a religious believer, though the particular religion didn't really matter (or shouldn't).

 

[Marius27]

1 Corinthians 6:9-10 - "Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God."

Homosexual was not added to that verse until 1946. It did not mean that for 1900 years prior, in fact for hundreds of years it meant masturbators and in all classical literature it condemned economic crimes and slavery.

Have you ever even researched the verses you use to condemn people?

 

[Marius27]

When I was a boy in the Cub Scouts...

I have problems with people who condone homosexual rape of children.
If the scouts allow homosexuals in; the rapes of children will escalate exponentially!
As a cub scout I was raped; I know all about it.

Nonsense. 98% of all child molesters are heterosexual in their adult orientation. And most homosexuals are not rapists. That is a disgusting thing to say.

By your logic, all heterosexuals should be banned from the Scouts since they are overwhelmingly more likely to be rapists.

 

[Marius27]

Right. Christians who are gay. Homosexuality is against the Bible. What kind of Christians are these? What do they think of what God says about homosexuality?

Do you know what being gay means? It has nothing to do with behavior. It refers to one's attractions. The Bible does not mention being attracted to the same-sex as a sin.

As for what God says, I don't believe he said a thing about homosexuality. The 4 verses you all butcher to condemn gays do not apply to modern day homosexuality. Every single case in the Bible condemns pagan prostitution, pederasty, and rape.

 

[Sayen]

These debates are funny.

First, Boy Scouts is not a specifically Christian organization, something everyone likes to ignore. While some troops are definitely sponsored by Christian churches and have heavily religious activities, others are secular, and even (gasp!) non-Christian. Go to a major scout camp or gathering and Sunday services cover a variety of faiths, including (gasp!) Islam, and have for years.

Second, some of y'all need to spend time with teens. They don't care when their friends are gay. They still do normal teen stuff with their gay friends - they don't spontaneously start having big gay orgies. My students camp out, sleep over at each other's houses, and travel together...gay or straight. As far as scouts are concerned, there won't be an impact in the majority of troops. Most teens will shrug and say "Eh." They've already resolved this problem, outside of the extreme examples I'm sure someone will drag into this.

 

[katautumn]

It refers to one's attractions.

So does that mean a woman who prefers to be attracted to African-American males would be a blackosexual? I mean, it's just ludicrous. You either want to have sexual relations with someone of the opposite or the same sex. If it's nothing more than a matter of preference of attraction, then that would implicate that it's a choice, rather than an inbred orientation, wouldn't it? I mean, I could say I prefer the physical appearances of a specific ethnic group, but would that mean I was absolutely powerless to be attracted to someone from another group?

As for what God says, I don't believe he said a thing about homosexuality.

Well, I'm glad you were there when God spoke the Scriptures into existence. That must be why you're so insightful as to the mind of God . If it were me, I'd tread a little more carefully with the, "well, I don't believe God cares about that" assertions. Galatians 6:7.

The 4 verses you all butcher to condemn gays do not apply to modern day homosexuality. Every single case in the Bible condemns pagan prostitution, pederasty, and rape.

Blah blah blah...making this up as I go along...blah blah blah...pretending to be a Bible scholar...blah blah blah...I'm just here to criticize Christian beliefs for lulz...blah blah blah...the Bible doesn't mean what it says...blah blah blah.

 

[Marius27]

So does that mean a woman who prefers to be attracted to African-American males would be a blackosexual?

No, because racial preference is not a sexual orientation.

I mean, it's just ludicrous. You either want to have sexual relations with someone of the opposite or the same sex. If it's nothing more than a matter of preference of attraction, then that would implicate that it's a choice, rather than an inbred orientation, wouldn't it?

No. How do you determine whether you are attracted to someone? Do you look at a man and go, "Hmm, I has symmetrical proportions, decent looking eyes, a nice small, not too heavy, not too thin, I think I'll chose to find him attractive at this moment."? There is no voluntary analysis involved. Most of us get a "Woa, he/she is hot!" reaction. It's part of the brain wiring.

I mean, I could say I prefer the physical appearances of a specific ethnic group, but would that mean I was absolutely powerless to be attracted to someone from another group?

I would say you're powerless to force yourself to be attracted to someone you're not attracted to. Attractions are involuntary. I'm baffled that this is such a hard concept for you all to grasp. I'm assuming you grew up and had crushes on guys.

Well, I'm glad you were there when God spoke the Scriptures into existence. That must be why you're so insightful as to the mind of God . If it were me, I'd tread a little more carefully with the, "well, I don't believe God cares about that" assertions. Galatians 6:7.

Ah yes, the infamous, "If God didn't speak to you about an issue that agrees with me, it must be Satan!" argument. I've prayed to God about this issue for 15 years, and my feedback does not agree with your views. We're going to have to agree to disagree. I don't accept your understanding of this issue as accurate.

Blah blah blah...making this up as I go along...blah blah blah...pretending to be a Bible scholar...blah blah blah...I'm just here to criticize Christian beliefs for lulz...blah blah blah...the Bible doesn't mean what it says...blah blah blah.

The Bible says the Sun revolves around the Earth and a solid dome sits on top of the Earth. Do you take that to mean what it says, or do you reinterpret it to conform to modern scientific evidence and claim it was metaphor? And the Bible wasn't written in English. I can show you the exact same verse in 2 different Bibles that mean 2 entirely different things. Stop acting like a 12 year old.

 

[morningstar2651]

Boy Scouts Of America, isn't that a private group, that's supposed to follow Gods laws?

Boy Scouts of America is NOT a Christian organization. While belief in a God is required for membership, they do not specify which God or Gods.

 

[morningstar2651]

The world has gotten more tolerant? No. Muslim extremists, Iran, and Russia still want us dead. Why should only we be tolerant when others are not tolerant of us? I see a very dark future coming soon.

"The gods of one age become the devils of the age to follow. The priests look forward to the age to come and see only the end of the world." - Lon Milo DuQuette, Angels, Demons, & Gods of the New Millennium