Newlywed help on intimacy and what is normal

[Dave-W]

I'm thankful he was patient with me, though we were able to talk through much of it before we were married.

We were strictly forbidden by our congregation from discussing ANY of that before we were married.

 

[All4Christ]

We were strictly forbidden by our congregation from discussing ANY of that before we were married.

The main things we discussed were how to trust each other despite what happened in our past. Both of us had bad experiences (mine with emotional abuse and starting to become sexual abuse, his with a fiancée cheating on him). Discussing trust issues, albeit not necessarily in a sexual context was extremely helpful for us. It also took us 8 years before getting engaged due to those same trust issues. It was good that we took our time, in my opinion.

Perhaps there are limitations on discussions regarding sexuality but I do personally believe there are some things that are good to discuss in relation to that even before marriage - especially when you are engaged. Some of that was actually referenced in our premarital counseling.

 

[Paidiske]

We were strictly forbidden by our congregation from discussing ANY of that before we were married.

How on earth did they justify denying you thorough marriage preparation?!

 

[Hetta]

And I think I have pretty good biblical case for doing just that.

Maybe not; but that is between her and the Lord.

I will, but that request for help needs to come from her, not me.

No temptation for her. At all.
I have learned to deal with my own temptations.

DaveW, we don't always get on, but I very much honor you for your approach to your wife.

 

[Dave-W]

How on earth did they justify denying you thorough marriage preparation?!

Their idea of "marriage prep" was that they (the congregational leaders) agreed with the coupling. They taught from the pulpit to NEVER chose a marriage partner that you found "sexually attractive." It would only lead to "lust."

They were rabidly afraid of sexual sins so they prohibited all dating. They even prohibited social or service functions that were coed. The only exception was the drama and music dept.

 

[Paidiske]

That's atrocious. I almost want to say negligent.

 

[Dave-W]

That's atrocious. I almost want to say negligent.

I can laugh about it now. At the time it was rather onerous.

Part of it was the demographic of the congregation. Early 1970s. 700-800 congregants, almost all of college age. There was only 1 or 2 couples over the age of 40. A lot of very small children. The leadership board was all under 30.

Then we "inherited" an evangelist when the cult group Children of God vacated the US just prior to the Kohoutek Comet. (which they thought was going to strike the US) She did not want to move so she joined us. She used their approved method of recruitment which was to pick a guy up at a bar, get him drunk, and during sex talk to him about joining the "church." She continued that technique with our congregation. So the leaders shut down anything that they thought could end up in that situation. So no dating, no hanging out at bars, no interaction with anyone of the opposite sex.

And after you get into a "courtship," (Joshua Harris was a pre-schooler) or even when you get engaged, no talking about your past; especially anything sexual. That can all be handled AFTER the wedding.

 

[All4Christ]

I can laugh about it now. At the time it was rather onerous.

Part of it was the demographic of the congregation. Early 1970s. 700-800 congregants, almost all of college age. There was only 1 or 2 couples over the age of 40. A lot of very small children. The leadership board was all under 30.

Then we "inherited" an evangelist when the cult group Children of God vacated the US just prior to the Kohoutek Comet. (which they thought was going to strike the US) She did not want to move so she joined us. She used their approved method of recruitment which was to pick a guy up at a bar, get him drunk, and during sex talk to him about joining the "church." She continued that technique with our congregation. So the leaders shut down anything that they thought could end up in that situation. So no dating, no hanging out at bars, no interaction with anyone of the opposite sex.

And after you get into a "courtship," (Joshua Harris was a pre-schooler) or even when you get engaged, no talking about your past; especially anything sexual. That can all be handled AFTER the wedding.

Out of curiosity, I looked up Children Of God, and some very disturbing propaganda posters came up...Crazy stuff!! Their current website doesn't show nearly the same stuff. It looks very benign in comparison, so I'm curious if they still do the same things. That said, I'm not planning to look more as the stuff I saw was not very edifying!

 

[Paidiske]

I've read a bit about the Children of God - they were active in Australia when I was small.

From what I understand, although they still exist, they've toned down some of their more outrageous practices now. After their founder died his wife took over the leadership and the emphasis shifted a little (although they're still beyond weird). And after they got into so much trouble with the law for sexual abuse of children in many countries I believe they instituted a new minimum age.

 

[Dave-W]

ut of curiosity, I looked up Children Of God, and some very disturbing propaganda posters came up...Crazy stuff!! Their current website doesn't show nearly the same stuff. It looks very benign in comparison, so I'm curious if they still do the same things.

I don't think so. They took a huge hit when the comet thing did not pan out. And I think their cult leader died a few years back. They ended up changing their name to something like The Family.

 

[Dave-W]

I've read a bit about the Children of God - they were active in Australia when I was small.

Yeah - that was where they thought they would be safe from the comet.

 

[LinkH]

I never said that a husband should demand submission. Far from it. A husband is commanded to be willing to DIE for his wife. A woman follows the queue of how the church reacts to Christ. She loves and respects him. It then in Peter says that the husband will respect his wife in return. Why is that wrong in your opinion?

If a husband demands submission, then he is sinning.

I disagree with this statement. Is it wrong to insist that another believer do what is right? Would you say the same thing about a Christian employer and his employee, the president and a cabinet minister, a parent and child, an officer to someone under his command? Why should husbands and wives be different from all other relationships in regard to accountability and obedience to the word of God?

Take a look at Revelation 2. Christ corrected churches that weren't treating him right. What they were doing, among other things.

And submission often is interpreted as a wife being a doormat. That's not right from my perspective. In fact, I think women being a doormat is a horrible misinterpretation of that verse.

A husband should treat his wife with honor, not treat her as a doormat. Let's not just look at extremes. There are ditches on either sides. It is not the case that only men who want to treat their wives like doormats want their wives to obey the scriptures on the issue of marriage. A man should seek to have his whole house serve the Lord. Joshua said, 'as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.'

 

[All4Christ]

I disagree with this statement. Is it wrong to insist that another believer do what is right? Would you say the same thing about a Christian employer and his employee, the president and a cabinet minister, a parent and child, an officer to someone under his command?

Take a look at Revelation 2. Christ corrected churches that weren't treating him right. What they were doing, among other things.



A husband should treat his wife with honor, not treat her as a doormat. Let's not just look at extremes. There are ditches on either sides. It is not the case that only men who want to treat their wives like doormats want their wives to obey the scriptures on the issue of marriage. A man should seek to have his whole house serve the Lord. Joshua said, 'as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.'

I'd say that there is a difference between demanding submission and working together to follow the model promoted in scripture.

If you look at my latest post in Rebellious Women (http://www.christianforums.com/threads/rebellious-women.7950822/page-40#post-69744598), you will see my thoughts on the matter. I can't discuss it much here due to the subforum rules.

 

[Dave-W]

"If a husband demands submission, then he is sinning."
I disagree with this statement. Is it wrong to insist that another believer do what is right?

I do not disagree. Teaching the proper way is one thing. Demanding (or trying to force) the right response is quite another.

Submission is NOT obedience. It has to come from the heart.

 

[mkgal1]

She used their approved method of recruitment which was to pick a guy up at a bar, get him drunk, and during sex talk to him about joining the "church."

Wow. Sorry to get off track, but this same scenario was portrayed in a series with Ron Perlman (Sons of Anarchy) called Hand of God. I had no idea that it was so close to reality (it's so far-fetched). That was a really good series, BTW (I thought).

Okay..../derail.

 

[All4Christ]

I disagree with this statement. Is it wrong to insist that another believer do what is right? Would you say the same thing about a Christian employer and his employee, the president and a cabinet minister, a parent and child, an officer to someone under his command? Why should husbands and wives be different from all other relationships in regard to accountability and obedience to the word of God?

Take a look at Revelation 2. Christ corrected churches that weren't treating him right. What they were doing, among other things.



A husband should treat his wife with honor, not treat her as a doormat. Let's not just look at extremes. There are ditches on either sides. It is not the case that only men who want to treat their wives like doormats want their wives to obey the scriptures on the issue of marriage. A man should seek to have his whole house serve the Lord. Joshua said, 'as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.'

Before I continue, I agree with your description of a husband's role.

--------------

Link, I have been thinking about what you wrote. I am not in an egalitarian marriage (in the modern sense of the word) and I consider my husband to be the head of the house, especially in spiritual matters.

However, I'd like you to consider the other side of the coin in a scenario that you mentioned.

Consider the following completely made-up scenario.

I (a wife) grew up in a home where my mother was the leader of the household, never listened to anything my father said and never respected him. Therefore, I never had a role model to show me how I should live as a wife. I am very independent and while I care what my husband thinks, I make important decisions without discussing them with him.

My husband believes that God prescribed the submission model for marriages. He sees that I am not following that model and decides to confront me. "Laura, I love you and care for you very much. Because I love you, I need to correct you on some of your behavior. You aren't following the commands of God to submit to me, your husband. I insist - no, I demand! - that you submit to me as God designed women to do for their husbands. You need to obey me, just as the Church obeys Christ."

Consider the current mindset of our culture today. Women who "submit" to their husbands are countercultural at this time. It is a struggle and a form of obedience to God. It should be a voluntary submission rather than an obligatory obedience (like Dave said, it is a matter of the heart). No matter if it is wrong or right - it is difficult.

When a young woman (or any other age) first hears that she should "submit to her husband" - especially from the husband himself, it feels very degrading. In truth, when lived out properly, it can be a beautiful model. However, it is construed to be much worse, and often the extreme is what women hear from others and too often experience themselves. Can you imagine being told that you need to be obedient to your husband and that he will be the final authority on everything? That you need to be subordinate to him - if not in value, then in the order of obedience? Can you see that a husband "demanding" this could backfire?

I believe this is a pastoral matter as well. Each wife should have a godly woman to help teach her how to be a godly wife, and each husband should have a similar mentor. Often a pastor and his wife could fill this role. In our church, we actually have a woman and man that stand with us at our wedding and promise to help us in our marriage. They would be ideal people to gently correct the wife or husband in this area.

I may be rambling, so I apologize for any grammar or miscommunication. I just want to explain how a husband demanding his wife to submit to him could be detrimental, while working together to be a better husband and wife could be beneficial.

 

[mkgal1]

Well said, Laura. That sort of "correction" will only bring about temporary external change (and, most likely, internal resentment and disconnect). How is that "two becoming one"? It severs the relationship.

 

[LinkH]

All4Christ,

Using the word 'demand' to get someone else to do something can easily backfire. But it is posssible to be consistent in holding the other party accountable to do so without using undiplomatic language.

I am thinking of other scenarios. Just think about with children. Just suppose there were parents who told their children to obey them, but didn't really insist on it. There were no consequences for disobedience, or not attitude of drawing a line in the sand, ever. How do you think the kids would act in comparison to parents who were very insistent that the children obeyed? I would imagine the behavior would be quite different.

But of coruse those are children. But even at a work situation, for example at a factory, if there were a factory manager who told the employees to be there on time and to do certain things, but when workers, over time, stopped doing what they were required to do, he didn't confront them about it or hold them accountable. Wouldn't the factory deteriorate?

I don't agree with the idea that holding a wife accountable always has to result in the attitude displayed in the example of the kid who says, "I'm sitting down on the outside, but I'm standing up on the outside." Sometimes, hard conversations make people re-evaluate their motives. It can nudge Christians to prayer, contemplation and repentence.

Everyone is different. There may be a situation in which it is appropriate to be rather confrontational and insist the other party do right, and times when it is best to point out the error, but not be too insistent for the sake of peace, keeping the family together, etc. It requires wisdom, and depends on the character of the people involved.

We had a conversation on one of the threads recently about a man whose wife wouldn't sleep with him and hadn't for a long time. He thought it was all on her to come around and do right by meeting his sexual needs. I thought it might be right to insist she do something about her hangups and get back on track with a normal sexual relationship. But there was also the issue of the wife's past sexual abuse, so how to handle it is complicated, and it could be a situation where putting pressure on her could do some damage.

But I disagree with the idea that being very insistent that someone repent and do right is necessarily unChristlike.

 

[Dave-W]

You aren't following the commands of God to submit to me, your husband. I insist - no, I demand! - that you submit to me as God designed women to do for their husbands. You need to obey me, just as the Church obeys Christ."

It is at this point where the fictitious husband crosses the line from instruction and correction into abuse and "lording it over" his wife. Which, btw, is strictly PROHIBITED in the New Covenant community.

Matt 20.25 But Jesus called them to Himself and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great men exercise authority over them.
26 It is not this way among you, but whoever wishes to become great among you shall be your servant,"

To any man who "insists" or "demands" submission from his wife, I present Hebrews 13.17 which tells men to obey and submit to their congregational leadership. "What if your pastor approached you and said 'I insist - no, I demand! - that you submit to me as God designed...' "

Heb 13.17 Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they keep watch over your souls as those who will give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with grief, for this would be unprofitable for you.

Sometimes it actually opens their eyes to what they have been doing.

 

[Observer]

I see no need for that. The guy just needs to man up and deal with it.

He is a guy. He should be able to take anything with a smile.

Men have needs as well, no one should be deprived in a marriage because they are male or female. It should be a mutually pleasing relationship. Not every day and all the time, but overall.