Newlywed help on intimacy and what is normal

[Dave-W]

Neither men's nor women's bodies are their own:

Of course. We are God's. Lock stock and barrel.

Additionally, in 1 Corinthians 7, we read: "For the wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does. Likewise the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does. Do not deprive one another, except perhaps by agreement for a limited time, that you may devote yourselves to prayer; but then come together again ...."

I guess you could say that 38 years (I think that's how long you said you were married) was a "limited time."

The "limited time" according to Hillel, the grandfather of Paul's mentor Gameliel and founder of the Pharasaic school he attended was one week. Hillel's best friend/main competitor Shammai said 2 weeks.

The thing about spiritual authority, it can NEVER EVER be imposed from the top down. It has to be from the consent and willing submission of the one UNDER the authority. No one gets to "lord it over" anyone else.

Mk 10.42 Calling them to Himself, Jesus *said to them, “You know that those who are recognized as rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them; and their great men exercise authority over them. 43 But it is not this way among you, but whoever wishes to become great among you shall be your servant; 44 and whoever wishes to be first among you shall be slave of all.

 

[Dave-W]

That said, you are right that the husband must love his wife as Christ loves the church, even if she doesn't follow the commandments she is given. .... It's a non-negotiable, independent command to the husbands.

Thank you.

We women need to follow our part as well though to make the marriage work properly.

That will make things run more smoothly, but the man cannot force that. That will only make things worse. She needs to see that from God for herself.

 

[Mudinyeri]

Of course. We are God's. Lock stock and barrel.

The "limited time" according to Hillel, the grandfather of Paul's mentor Gameliel and founder of the Pharasaic school he attended was one week. Hillel's best friend/main competitor Shammai said 2 weeks.

The thing about spiritual authority, it can NEVER EVER be imposed from the top down. It has to be from the consent and willing submission of the one UNDER the authority. No one gets to "lord it over" anyone else.

Mk 10.42 Calling them to Himself, Jesus *said to them, “You know that those who are recognized as rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them; and their great men exercise authority over them. 43 But it is not this way among you, but whoever wishes to become great among you shall be your servant; 44 and whoever wishes to be first among you shall be slave of all.

I don't disagree with any of that. However, my original point was that God's commands apply equally to husband and wife and neither has a greater responsibility to "man up" or "woman up." Both share that responsibility equally.

 

[Dave-W]

my original point was that God's commands apply equally to husband and wife and neither has a greater responsibility to "man up" or "woman up." Both share that responsibility equally.

That is not true. God places the greater responsibility and burden on the husbands.

 

[Mudinyeri]

That said, you are right that the husband must love his wife as Christ loves the church, even if she doesn't follow the commandments she is given. It's not a "if your wife loves, obeys and respects you, love her as Christ loves the Church". It's a non-negotiable, independent command to the husbands. We women need to follow our part as well though to make the marriage work properly.

There are also non-negotiable, independent commands given to wives.

Now, I agree, if one spouse is not following the commands given them the other spouse is not relieved of their responsibilities. However, as I said in my post above, both are equally called to "man up" and "woman up" as @DaveW-Ohev puts it.

 

[Mudinyeri]

That is not true. God places the greater responsibility and burden on the husbands.

In some cased but not in this one: "For the wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does. Likewise the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does."

 

[Dave-W]

There are also non-negotiable, independent commands given to wives.

Do share.

 

[All4Christ]

There are also non-negotiable, independent commands given to wives.

Now, I agree, if one spouse is not following the commands given them the other spouse is not relieved of their responsibilities. However, as I said in my post above, both are equally called to "man up" and "woman up" as @DaveW-Ohev puts it.

I agree that there are also non-negotiable, independent commands to the wife as well (hence why I said we need to do our part as well). Neither side can force the other to do their part though. We are responsible for doing what we are commanded to do.

If the marriage is working properly, the commands we are given will result in both loving each other unconditionally and both voluntarily sacrificing their needs for the other. Scripturally we are given directions on how to make that happen. If one side isn't doing that, the other side doing their part - and praying - can lead to the spouse doing theirs.

 

[All4Christ]

Do share.

I know you addressed this to another poster, but a few that I know I have to follow can be found here:

1 Peter 3

And the verse I can't discuss here per subforum rules - Ephesians 5:22-24

We wives are commanded to follow those verses. It doesn't work though if he husband doesn't follow his. Interestingly though in 1 Peter 3, it shows a wife following her commands could lead towards her husband following his.

 

[Dave-W]

I know you addressed this to another poster, but a few that I know I have to follow can be found here:

And the verse I can't discuss here per subforum rules

LOL!!!

For those who bring that up I always bring up Heb 13.17. That is addressed specifically to men (being in the masculine). My take is that if a guy is DEMANDING submission from his wife, he had better be prepared to submit TO THAT SAME DEGREE to his own congregational leaders.

ETA: as to "demanding" submission, see my post #41 above comment on spiritual authority.

 

[mkgal1]

Is this the best place for this debate?

 

[All4Christ]

LOL!!!

For those who bring that up I always bring up Heb 13.17. That is addressed specifically to men (being in the masculine). My take is that if a guy is DEMANDING submission from his wife, he had better be prepared to submit TO THAT SAME DEGREE to his congregational leaders.

I never said that a husband should demand submission. Far from it. A husband is commanded to be willing to DIE for his wife. A woman follows the queue of how the church reacts to Christ. She loves and respects him. It then in Peter says that the husband will respect his wife in return. Why is that wrong in your opinion?

If a husband demands submission, then he is sinning. And submission often is interpreted as a wife being a doormat. That's not right from my perspective. In fact, I think women being a doormat is a horrible misinterpretation of that verse.

People have a skewed opinion of how those verses work, in my opinion. Many people who believe in submission give a really bad meaning to the verses. That doesn't mean we don't have some things we need to do as well.

 

[All4Christ]

Is this the best place for this debate?

No, you are right. It's not the right place.

Dave - I'll bow out of this, but know that not all people interpret those verses the way you think we do when they are brought up.

 

[Dave-W]

In fact, I think women being a doormat is a horrible misinterpretation of that verse.

I completely agree.

 

[Dave-W]

Is this the best place for this debate?

This is discussing a serious issue in marriage.
I cannot think of a better place.

Do you have another place in mind?

 

[All4Christ]

This is discussing a serious issue in marriage.
I cannot think of a better place.

Do you have another place in mind?

Maybe a different thread? Unless we focus directly on the part related to the OP?

 

[Dave-W]

Maybe a different thread? Unless we focus directly on the part related to the OP?

OK - but the OP has not been back .......

What Fae described sounded quite similar to my wife's description of her experience. I was not as crass as the husband in the op but just as insistent. And I was 100% WRONG.

That is why I write as I do. And why I think this thread is the place for that discussion.

 

[All4Christ]

OK - but the OP has not been back .......

I do think it would be a good topic to discuss openly and respectfully, but it is shut down pretty much any time it is discussed due to the subforum rules. I can't even say the "s" word in this forum without risking it being shut down - even if I have a different understanding of it.

 

[All4Christ]

OK - but the OP has not been back .......

What Fae described sounded quite similar to my wife's description of her experience. I was not as crass as the husband in the op but just as insistent. And I was 100% WRONG.

That is why I write as I do. And why I think this thread is the place for that discussion.

I had an experience before marriage where my boyfriend...well, it was bad. It took time for my husband and I to work through some things because of that. I'm thankful he was patient with me, though we were able to talk through much of it before we were married.

I agree 100% that it is not something to be demanded. We follow our part, but can't - shouldn't - force it on the other.

 

[Dave-W]

I agree 100% that it is not something to be demanded. We follow our part, but can't - shouldn't - force it on the other.

The difference between obedience and submission is this:

Obedience is an outward act that has no bearing on the state of mind or heart.
Submission is something from the heart that does not necessarily end up being expressed in obedience.

There is the story of the boy that keeps standing up in church no matter how many times his dad sits him back down. Eventually he threatens the boy with a spanking. The boy sits there but says "I may be sitting down on the outside but I am standing up on the inside." Obedience without submission.

Another story about a guy who made a lot of $$ under the table and insists his wife NOT mention it to their tax auditor. She replies: "I would love to be able to comply with what you want, but this is very illegal. I cannot agree with you on this." She tells the auditor and they have to pay tax on his windfall. She submitted without obeying.