New Testament View of the Old Testament

isaacschade

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I am working on my thoughts about how to view the New Testament in light of the Old Testament. I have some thoughts of my own, but I would be interested to hear other people's thoughts.

I'm thinking through things like:
- What is Jesus' role with respect to the Mosaic (Old Testament) law?
- What do we in "New Testament" churches do with these Old Testament laws? Are they outdated? Are they relevant for us today? Can we take some while leaving others behind? (more succinctly: What is the role of the Old Testament in our churches today?)
- Do Paul and Jesus agree on their perspective of how we should treat the law?

I would love to have discussions with people about any or all of these questions. Below are some texts to consider:

Matthew 5.17
2 Corinthians 3.5-6
Romans 7.22
Romans 7.12
Romans 3.31
Romans 10.4
1 Timothy 1.5
Ephesians 2.14-15
Colossians 2.14

thanks so much for your thoughts!
 

SummaScriptura

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I am working on my thoughts about how to view the New Testament in light of the Old Testament. I have some thoughts of my own, but I would be interested to hear other people's thoughts.

I'm thinking through things like:
- What is Jesus' role with respect to the Mosaic (Old Testament) law?
- What do we in "New Testament" churches do with these Old Testament laws? Are they outdated? Are they relevant for us today? Can we take some while leaving others behind? (more succinctly: What is the role of the Old Testament in our churches today?)
- Do Paul and Jesus agree on their perspective of how we should treat the law?

I would love to have discussions with people about any or all of these questions. Below are some texts to consider:

Matthew 5.17
2 Corinthians 3.5-6
Romans 7.22
Romans 7.12
Romans 3.31
Romans 10.4
1 Timothy 1.5
Ephesians 2.14-15
Colossians 2.14

thanks so much for your thoughts!
All the Law & the Prophets & the Writings point to Jesus Christ and find their proper fulfillment, and interpretation Christocentrically.
 
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Frogster

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I am working on my thoughts about how to view the New Testament in light of the Old Testament. I have some thoughts of my own, but I would be interested to hear other people's thoughts.

I'm thinking through things like:
- What is Jesus' role with respect to the Mosaic (Old Testament) law?
- What do we in "New Testament" churches do with these Old Testament laws? Are they outdated? Are they relevant for us today? Can we take some while leaving others behind? (more succinctly: What is the role of the Old Testament in our churches today?)
- Do Paul and Jesus agree on their perspective of how we should treat the law?

I would love to have discussions with people about any or all of these questions. Below are some texts to consider:

Matthew 5.17
2 Corinthians 3.5-6
Romans 7.22
Romans 7.12
Romans 3.31
Romans 10.4
1 Timothy 1.5
Ephesians 2.14-15
Colossians 2.14

thanks so much for your thoughts!
Basically,the law and the Prophets was phraseology to mean the OT,not just the law.In John 10 and 15,Jesus called it the law,while quoting the psalms.Paul did too while quoting Isaiah
in Corinthinas 14:21 In the Law it is written, “By people of strange tongues and by the lips of foreigners will I speak to this people, and even then they will not listen to me, says the Lord.”


I say that because the 'pro law people" use matt 5:17,to make like Christians are under law.Yes,the law will always be there,but in reference to Rom 3;31,we must remember the context and placement of the verse.It comes after 3 chapters of describing the UNSAVED.And the list in Rom 1,sounds like the same list in 1 Tim 1,where Paul said the law is not for the righteouss,but for the ungodly,who sound just like those in Rom 1,The unsaved.

1 Tim 1:9 understanding this, that the law is not laid down for the just but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who strike their fathers and mothers, for murderers, 10 the sexually immoral, men who practice homosexuality, enslavers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine,

Clearly as far as Eph 2,and Colossians 2,the ceremonial laws had to be abolished,or Jewish people and Gentiles could not become one,because the laws separated the two.

As far as Rom 10:4.Yes,those who believe are not under law.Christ ended that old system.

Romans 3;27 Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith.

As far as Rom 7:12.the law did it's purpose,it powered sin,and Paul saw that his natural strength was not enough,so through the law,he died to the law.

Second Cor 3,is the most awesome of all,it shows that the letter of the law killed.Which is similar to Rom 7:9-11.We see Paul in each verse say the death word or killed,etc.



 
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There are some who attempt to create an artificial division between the teachings of Jesus and Paul's theology. In order to accomplish this feat they must disparage one or the other as being inferior (typically it is Paul who is put at that end of things). In doing so they denigrate the Bible into an uninspired book of man's devising. If one holds a high view of the Bible, as I am most others here at CF do, then one concludes that the same Spirit that was present in Jesus Christ during His earthly ministry is also the promised Spirit (cf. John 16) that inspired the writers of the Bible, both Old and New Testaments (cf. II Tim. 3:16).

As one writer cleverly put it, "The New Testament is in the Old contained and the Old is in the New explained."
 
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marlowe007

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Marcion, the second century Gnostic preacher, once wrote a book called Antithesis which conclusively proved that the New Testament is incompatible with the Old. Nevertheless, the latter was included in the Xtian canon because the Council of Nicaea felt the need to appeal to antiquity.
 
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MrPolo

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Take for example the sacrifice of the Passover Lamb. You see how in the first Passover, those who partook in the "blood of the Lamb" were saved from physical death. In the NT, Jesus is the Lamb of God. You see how those who partake in the blood of the Lamb in the NT are saved from spiritual death.

That's an example of how the New is foretold in the Old and the Old teaches us about the nature of the New.
 
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Frogster

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There are some who attempt to create an artificial division between the teachings of Jesus and Paul's theology. In order to accomplish this feat they must disparage one or the other as being inferior (typically it is Paul who is put at that end of things). In doing so they denigrate the Bible into an uninspired book of man's devising. If one holds a high view of the Bible, as I am most others here at CF do, then one concludes that the same Spirit that was present in Jesus Christ during His earthly ministry is also the promised Spirit (cf. John 16) that inspired the writers of the Bible, both Old and New Testaments (cf. II Tim. 3:16).

As one writer cleverly put it, "The New Testament is in the Old contained and the Old is in the New explained."
Have you heard about the movement that wants to "re-evaluate" Paul?
 
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FaithGuyX

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Have you heard about the movement that wants to "re-evaluate" Paul?

I have, and it was a prevalent and highly debated conversation in the Presbyterian church for a while a few years back, and my denomination, the PCA whole-heartedly rejected it.
It's called The New Perspective on Paul. It's an idea to change the way in which we interpret Paul's writings.
To me it's very interesting but bordering on heresy.
That's just me though.
I don't want to change orthodox doctrines.
 
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SummaScriptura

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FaithGuyX

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Take for example the sacrifice of the Passover Lamb. You see how in the first Passover, those who partook in the "blood of the Lamb" were saved from physical death. In the NT, Jesus is the Lamb of God. You see how those who partake in the blood of the Lamb in the NT are saved from spiritual death.

That's an example of how the New is foretold in the Old and the Old teaches us about the nature of the New.

Exactly!
Perfect example of the concept of "types and shadows" here. :)
 
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SummaScriptura

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You are talking about whom? The Gnostics or Marcion and the early church?
I corrected the post, because the Gods of the Old and New Testament are in fact not the Gods of the Old and New Testament but rather the One God, not conflicted in Himself.

The OP was being clever and slammed the Council of Nicea with faint praise of Marcion.
 
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Frogster

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I have, and it was a prevalent and highly debated conversation in the Presbyterian church for a while a few years back, and my denomination, the PCA whole-heartedly rejected it.
It's called The New Perspective on Paul. It's an idea to change the way in which we interpret Paul's writings.
To me it's very interesting but bordering on heresy.
That's just me though.
I don't want to change orthodox doctrines.
I agree,and started a thread on it,curious to hear more.
 
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Luddite

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I am working on my thoughts about how to view the New Testament in light of the Old Testament. I have some thoughts of my own, but I would be interested to hear other people's thoughts.

I'm thinking through things like:
- What is Jesus' role with respect to the Mosaic (Old Testament) law?
In his own words, he fulfills it. I think that it couldn't be said any more accurately. Fulfilling is distinct from "merely repeating", or "abolishing", and neither of those things is what he did. His fulfilling is a more subtle and even radical but coherent mission, which is what the entire Old Covenant and Law is to be seen through.
- What do we in "New Testament" churches do with these Old Testament laws? Are they outdated? Are they relevant for us today? Can we take some while leaving others behind? (more succinctly: What is the role of the Old Testament in our churches today?)
The Old Testament has both moral, judicial, and ceremonial contents. They are all temporal laws for Israel, but they still reflect the eternal law of God, and the moral precepts are echoes of the natural law which is valid for all ages, and therefore they can still be referenced (the ten commandments, and especially Jesus summarization of them into the two commandments). The judicial and ceremonial commandments are practiced ones (unlike strictly moral laws, which are about what is right and wrong), and therefore are confined to the Old Covenant. But their larger, ethical agenda is still a prefigurement and shadow which is valid to learn from, and to understand the New Testament through.

Which is what we are going to do. So let's consider how Jesus fulfills these main three kinds of precepts in the OT.

We say that Jesus fulfills all of them in distinct ways.

First, and most important, he fulfills the moral aspect. This is the foundation of the Old Testament. It demanded that the people of God keep of the commands, but could they? Even the most devout may have been good, but they were not good enough. However, Christ in his sinless life fulfills all of the demands because he walked in perfect love.

That is why Paul says: "For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, 'Cursed is everyone who does not observe and obey all the things written in the book of the law'", which is paraphrased from the Law itself, in Deuteronomy 27:26 "Cursed is he who does not confirm the words of this law by doing them".

So the curse applies to "everyone who does not observe and obey all the things written in the book of the law"! No curse is pronounced on those who obey "all the things" the law requires.

Of course, only Jesus Christ has ever obeyed everything in the law, without transgressing any of it. All the rest of us have sinned. He is the one person in which the entire law is fulfilled, and who has fully lived up to the requirements of the law. Hence, the moral aspect of the law is fulfilled.

Further, he fulfills the ceremonial, also called ritual aspect, of the Old Testament. He sacrifices himself for our sins. By his blood, our sins are atoned, just like the atonement for sin by the sacrifice of animals in the Law. But only his sacrifice is perfect and infinite, for he is perfect and infinite, being the Son of God. Hence, the ceremonial and ritual aspect of the law is fulfilled.

And third, he fulfills the judicial aspect. God is our judge, and since we have sinned, we deserve punishment; in fact, we deserve death. We are all under the curse of the law, because we have all transgressed. But instead of punishing us, he takes the punishment himself in sacrificing himself on the Cross. Hence, the judicial aspect of the law is fulfilled.

Now, where does that leave us? It leaves the ceremonial, moral and judicial aspects of the Law "fulfilled", such that it is no longer binding for us to sacrifice animals or stone sinners or rely on our own works.

Instead, we rely on God alone; on faith, not on works. That does not mean we should not do works, but that we are justified in Gods grace, which is the works of Christ. Only the works of Christ can fulfill the law and redeem us, because anything we do does less than fulfill the law.

Therefore, in summary, I'd say the Old Covenant and Law served two main purposes, from a Christocentric perspective.

One was the preparation for the coming of Christ, which neccesitated the election of a nation, since Christ had to be born to a woman of some nation, after all. And this is why I term the first purpose here, "Mariocentric" (with reference to the incarnation of Christ).

This nation and society which God would elect for the incarnation, would be the critical factor on which the mediation of Gods grace and mankinds salvation would stand or fall on; the vessel of salvation for mankind, the Apostle to humanity, so to say.

It would be the center of Gods salvation plan.

God entered into a covenant with the nation he elected for this purpose, and to prepare it for his incarnation, he had to transform this fallen people into a holy people. This required teaching them his holy law with discipline. He revealed himself and his holy law to them through the Prophets according to the most fitting disposition of the times, in the moral, judicial and ceremonial/ritual commandments and precepts we see in the Old Testament. Since God always acts in respect of human free will, since that is what distinguishes us from the rest of creation, the election of the nation depended on the free will of whether there was anyone willing to enter into a covenant with God, however; and by pouring his own graces on the Prophets, they entered into it by free will in seeing the graces and power of God. But the Israelites often broke the covenant by transgressing against the law; and therefore, when they had entered into the covenant, God had to constantly discipline the Israelites to avoid the almost unavoidable: that they turned away from the one, true God.

The reason that was so critical was that, if the covenant was finally broken, the salvation of mankind would be at stake.

And here comes an important point. The reason why this nation had to be holy above all others. It might not seem completely obvious at first. But the reason was, that it had to be holy in order to create a fitting and minimally worthy vessel (mother, and society) for Christs incarnation. It had to be a nation and a woman which had the disposition to know God and his holy law, not only in theory, but in it's heart and in practice. And even then, this is only the necessary aspect; it was necessary to install the discipline of the Old Law to keep the Israelites in the covenant, but it was not sufficient to bring about Mary. The sufficient factor is in the free will of Mary to cooperate with the Holy Spirit so she would conceive Christ and be a good and fitting mother to this very special task. She had to do it by free will, which was why it was not just anyone in Israelitic society, but a very special woman.

The severity of the Law, the death sentence for things we consider small offenses, for instance blasphemy, adultery or cursing your parents, which is exemplary justice to teach discipline to the masses, was necessary to "purge Israel from all evil", which was necessary for the salvation plan for mankind. And to make sure that Israel stayed in the covenant.

And here the point is: that all evil and corruption from the outside and from the world, had to be kept from and purged from Mary, so her own free choices would shine through, and she would be able to accept and cooperate with Gods graces freely. She had to know God through the prophets and Israelite religious practice, and know his holy law, and freely accept God, for our salvation.

Israels entire history is the necessary divine-human covenant and plan which is constantly directed with the end goal of keeping all sin and evil away from the Mother of God so that she remmained uncorrupted, and was able to be freely cooperate with the Holy Spirit, and conceive, bear, give birth to and raise God. So we see that in a sense, the history of Israel and the salvation history of mankind before Christ, is Mariocentric. It's centered around preserving and purging godfearing Mary and her society from evil and sin, as the vessel that was to give birth to Christ by the Holy Ghost.

And the second purpose of the law, is the purpose after Mary had freely cooperated with the Holy Spirit and conceived Christ, which is the necessity of the law in the life of Christ. That is, the Law had to be present and exerting it's influence on the society Christ was born into. And it had to be present to make sure of the presence of the persons who would become the disciples and apostles of Christ. In other words, the early Apostolic community and Church of Christ, had to have a knowledge of the moral, ceremonial and judicial constituents of the Old Law, to understand Christs life and work, and to see his place in it. Christ constantly of course, made reference and use of the Law, because it was the framework of holiness and Gods self-revelation to humanity before Christ which was necessary for his perfect revelation in Christ to be fulfilled.

And Christs work is to be seen in the context of the Old Law, in that way; as the fulfillment of it, and the Old Law is to be seen to the pointer to Christs eventual merits and fulfillment. The Old Law showed us that we cannot rely on our own work for salvation (since no one follows perfectly everything in the law), and therefore, we rely solely on Gods graces, in Christ. It was a disciplining purging to bring about holiness, but also a lesson in our need for Gods graces.

That is at least, my grasp of the role of the Old Law in Christs life and in the salvation of mankind.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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What better spiritual example of what the two witnesses might be.

The Old Testament conceals Christ
The New Testament reveals Christ.
:thumbsup: Reps coming your way..............

http://www.christianforums.com/t7397815/

Luke 2:32 A Light into a from-covering/apo-kaluyin <602> of Nations and glory of people of Thee Israel

2 Corin 3:14 But was calloused the minds of them.
For until the today, the same covering upon the reading of the Old Covenant is remaining, no being up-covered/ana-kaluptomenon <343> (5746).
That In Christ it is being-taken-away

Revelation 1:1 A-from-covering/apo-kaluyiV <602> of Jesus Christ, which gives to him, the God, to show to His bond-servants, which-things is binding to be becoming in swiftness. And He signifies commissioning thru the messenger of Him, to the bondservants of Him, John.
 
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