New Israel

Greg J.

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I think you make some solid points, but I don't think "all Israel will be saved" can be meant to exclude the non-believing Jews. I think there is room here for the possibility that, for Paul, there absolutely would come a time when all of [even] unbelieving Israel would find salvation.
I agree. My explanation could be better. I think the confusing bit is that I didn't try to be clear about which Jews and when (would be saved or lost)—which is an attribute of some spiritual things (e.g., spirit of Elijah). I'm just saying the fact is that not all individual Jews that have lived will be saved.
 
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Open Heart

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Biblically speaking, Jews are of the tribe of Judah, and are but one of the tribes of Jacob, or Israel.
Biblically speaking, "Jews" are all those of the Kingdom of Judah who went into captivity in Babylon. So who were they? They were
  • Judah
  • Benjamin
  • Levi
  • Refugees from the other 10 tribes that had fled South when the Northern Kingdom fell
IOW, "Jews" refers to all the children of Israel.
 
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Open Heart

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"He will turn godlessness away from Jacob" indicates the Jewish people will have godlessness. As a result, Paul is indicating there are Jews that will be lost,
I don't see how you make that conclusion from the verse you are quoting. It sounds to me like he is saying he will entice atheists away from Israel aka that atheist Jews will apostacize, which is what we see happening. Jews that do not keep their covenant? Within a few generations they no longer identify as Jews. It doesn't say one word about any Jews being lost.
 
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SolomonVII

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Biblically speaking, "Jews" are all those of the Kingdom of Judah who went into captivity in Babylon. So who were they? They were
  • Judah
  • Benjamin
  • Levi
  • Refugees from the other 10 tribes that had fled South when the Northern Kingdom fell
IOW, "Jews" refers to all the children of Israel.
Jews has as its root word Judah. That is one of the tribes. Benjamin was a smaller tribe closest to Judah territorially that was absorbed. Levi of course is the tribal priestly caste that was amongst all tribes, including those in the territory of Judea who claimed Judah as their ancestor.
This is all traditional of course more than genetic. It would be amazing that twelve brothers enter into Egypt and emerge out of Egypt five hundred years later as twelve distinct tribes. This is very much symbolic and theological.

And refugees who fled to the South fled to Judah, and no doubt became culturally indistinguishable from those that were left in Judea.

It is unfortunate that you focused on the one part of the argument that rankled your agenda without taking my argument as a whole into account. Do you recall that argument at all, and if so, what other criticisms might you make against it?
 
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Open Heart

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Jews has as its root word Judah. That is one of the tribes.
But in this case it is not referring to the tribe of Judah, but to the Kingdom of Judah, of which all the tribes were a part of at the time it went into captivity.
 
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SolomonVII

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But in this case it is not referring to the tribe of Judah, but to the Kingdom of Judah, of which all the tribes were a part of at the time it went into captivity.
Okay then.
I guess my post had no interest to you. You want to talk about something else.
 
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Open Heart

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It would be amazing that twelve brothers enter into Egypt and emerge out of Egypt five hundred years later as twelve distinct tribes. This is very much symbolic and theological.
What do you mean when you say that it is symbolic and theological? It's historical.
 
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Open Heart

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Okay then.
I guess my post had no interest to you. You want to talk about something else.
I simply replied to the part of your post that I took issue with. I wanted to make sure we were on the same page and that there was no misunderstanding. I'm sure we would both agree that today among the Jews, the 12 tribes are pretty indistingishable, with the exception of Levi (especially the Kohanim -- they of course know who they are). I mean, I have one Jewish friend named Ephramovich, so we know what tribe he is, but that is so the exception to the rule.
 
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Greg J.

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I don't see how you make that conclusion from the verse you are quoting. It sounds to me like he is saying he will entice atheists away from Israel aka that atheist Jews will apostacize, which is what we see happening. Jews that do not keep their covenant? Within a few generations they no longer identify as Jews. It doesn't say one word about any Jews being lost.
"He will turn godlessness away from Jacob" indicates the Jewish people will have godlessness. As a result, Paul is indicating there are Jews that will be lost
It is due to my interpretation of

... Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. ... (Romans 11:25b, 1984 NIV)

I view the "full number of Gentiles has come in" as a reference to a specific point in time in the last days, whereas "Israel has experienced a hardening" is something that has been going on for thousands of years. This is something I see in the verses leading up to v. 25, too. Over that long period of time there have been Jewish individuals who have died in their sins—the result of their hardened hearts. What I was trying to say is that "all Israel will be saved" cannot be a reference to all historical Jewish individuals.
 
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SolomonVII

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I simply replied to the part of your post that I took issue with. I wanted to make sure we were on the same page and that there was no misunderstanding. I'm sure we would both agree that today among the Jews, the 12 tribes are pretty indistingishable, with the exception of Levi (especially the Kohanim -- they of course know who they are). I mean, I have one Jewish friend named Ephramovich, so we know what tribe he is, but that is so the exception to the rule.
I would neither agree nor disagree with whether or not those of the ten tribes entering into Judean land, and/or becoming a part of Jewish culture are indistinguishable from those who trace their lineage back to Judah himself. Some posters here(which is to say one that I saw post) trace their(her) lineage back to Benjamin.
Culturally and religiously speaking, I suppose any who are from the modern Jewish faith/tribe are indistinguishable from each other based on which tribe they may or may not be able to trace their original lineage back to. Like any other person who converts to, or marries into, or otherwise becomes a Jew, they have in effect become of the tribe of Judah, the Jews. For all practical purpose they are of the tribe of Judah, the Jews, and therefore that is why the name is totally appropriate.

What a Jew is or isn't means a lot of different things to a lot of different people. I take no issue with that, nor have anything relevant to contribute to who a Jew is or isn't. That is strictly a Jewish question.

But that was never the focus of my post. My focus was never on who the Jews are, but on who Israel is. The focus of my post was those ten tribes lost to the Jews and lost to the land of their birthright, and lost to the God of their forefathers who have been in effect seeded into the nations of the world. The birthright of the ten lost tribes has never been usurped by Judah either.

This is not a territorial question as to whether modern Israel belongs to these ten lost tribes or not. Modern Israel is a land that belongs to the Jews, as far as I am concerned. This is not a call to usurpation. It is not a cultural issue as to who the Jews are or are not.

It is a theological assertion that, through Christ, those of the lost tribes seeded among the nations, have heard the voice of their shepherd and have been returned to the fold. Who Israel is, is not just exclusive to those of the tribe of Judah, or those who call themselves Jews, whatever their original roots have been.

The Jews are a tribe unto themselves, and one nation. But the promise made to Abraham has been to be a Father of many nations, more numerous than the stars in the sky, so to speak.

Israel has always been bigger than the tribe of Judah. It has always been more inclusive than those who go by the name of Jew. Israel was scattered, and sown among the nations during the Assyrian diaspora, except for the Jews(and the Benjamites and the Levis who lived among the tribe of Judah in the southern kingdom).

But God remains true to his Covenant. Through Christ, the ten lost tribes have been found among the nations, and have been harvested, are being harvested even now.
"New" Israel is not a displacement or a usurpation of the Jews, who are every bit as much Israel as are the ten lost tribes. But that also must mean that Jews alone can never fully define who Israel is.
Israel wasnever meant to be defined as just one tribe, but many nations, not the descendants and associates of the one son of Jacob, but the descendants of all twelve, even those who had been scattered and lost to the Jew and to the Jewish faith.

Jesus lived and died a Jew. He was of the tribe of Judah. He was of Judaism. But his calling was not to rescue those who were saved, but those who were lost, those who the Father made an eternal covenant with.

Jews never stopped being Israel on account of (rejecting) Jesus, but neither did those of the lost, idolatrous tribes stop being sons of Jacob on account of being scattered, as described in Hosea.
These were never Jews. But they were always the children of promise, just like their brother, Judah is.
 
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Open Heart

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It is due to my interpretation of

... Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. ... (Romans 11:25b, 1984 NIV)

I view the "full number of Gentiles has come in" as a reference to a specific point in time in the last days, whereas "Israel has experienced a hardening" is something that has been going on for thousands of years. This is something I see in the verses leading up to v. 25, too. Over that long period of time there have been Jewish individuals who have died in their sins—the result of their hardened hearts. What I was trying to say is that "all Israel will be saved" cannot be a reference to all historical Jewish individuals.
Okay, I understand your interpretation. However, I disagree with it. It is contrary to other scriptures.

Certainly there are some Jews that are outright evil, and I don't think "All Israel" refers to them. But given that the passage is clearly discussing non-believing Jews, it goes without saying that "All Israel" does include some non-believing Jews.
 
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Open Heart

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Like any other person who converts to, or marries into, or otherwise becomes a Jew, they have in effect become of the tribe of Judah, the Jews.
We're going to have to disagree on this. Jew has nothing to do with the tribe of Judah, but rather with the Kingdom of Judah.
 
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Greg J.

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Okay, I understand your interpretation. However, I disagree with it. It is contrary to other scriptures.

Certainly there are some Jews that are outright evil, and I don't think "All Israel" refers to them. But given that the passage is clearly discussing non-believing Jews, it goes without saying that "All Israel" does include some non-believing Jews.
The whole Bible testifies that this is false if you mean some non-believing Jews will be saved.
 
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Open Heart

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My focus was never on who the Jews are, but on who Israel is.
Do you mean Israel as in the Northern Kingdom? Why are you stuck on the time of division? There was once, now is, and ever shall be, the B'nei Ysrael, the Children of Israel, called by the Gentiles "Jews."
 
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Open Heart

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This is not a territorial question as to whether modern Israel belongs to these ten lost tribes or not. Modern Israel is a land that belongs to the Jews, as far as I am concerned. This is not a call to usurpation. It is not a cultural issue as to who the Jews are or are not.
If you ask us, the Jews, we will tell you that modern Israel belongs to all B'nei Ysrael, the Children of Israel.
 
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Open Heart

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The whole Bible testifies that this is false if you mean some non-believing Jews will be saved.
No it doesn't. And I've demolished your understanding of the Romans 11 verses -- your view runs contrary to other verses, and is out of context of the passage being about non-believing Jews in general.
 
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Open Heart

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I do believe it's because they hold to a two house Ephraimite theology.
I can't tell you how much I wish I could talk those people out of their wrong headed theology.
 
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Greg J.

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No it doesn't. And I've demolished your understanding of the Romans 11 verses -- your view runs contrary to other verses, and is out of context of the passage being about non-believing Jews in general.
If you have been arguing in the context of trying to logically demonstrate I'm wrong, you lost before you began.
 
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