Do you have scripture that says that the function of an apostle is different for the current body than it was at that time, or are we to just take your word for it?
I know, I'm not pliable enough here, but I have a hard time with anyone who cites a scripture to support their pet doctrine, and then has to tell us what that scripture actually means because the scripture doesn't actually say what the person demands it to say.
I try to apply that to everything.
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Whoa...hold your horses! Where in the world have I ever suggested, or even hinted that the role of the contemporary congregational apostle is any different to that of the congregational apostle of the first century?
I trust that you have read the entirety of my last post, which made it absolutely clear, that I see no difference whatsoever between the congregational apostle (and prophet) of today's church with that of the first century.
This should be further evidenced by the fact that with my five years on this forum that I am probably the only person who hammers away with 1Cor 12:28 where Paul tells us that "the Father has established within the (local) church
8 congregational Offices which are,
apostles, prophets, teachers, powers, healings, guidance, helps, tongues".
But there is a caveat in place in that the Scriptures do not afford any additional authority to the role of the congregational prophet! Now, if any individual ministry wishes to say that they have an apostolic ministry where their hearts desire is to start new churches within a particular region, then I am more than fine with this; in fact this should be encouraged by all and those persons who undertake this type of ministry should be given the appropriate honour.
Now, when it comes to any NARzie style ministry who tries to connect their 'ministry' with that of Eph 2:20, then they fully deserve to be ostracized by us all, as they’re claiming a right that they are not entitled to. If they also claim that as they are an ‘apostle’ that this also gives them some form of authority over others, where the Office of the apostle contains some form of inherent authority, where it is supposed to be above the other 8 Congregational Offices then such an idea stems entirely from a vivid imagination, or maybe from an over-realised sense of self worth where the proponent is placing far too much weight on their own publicity.
This had been the position of the AoG (USA) since the introduction of the heretical Latter-Rain movement that began to infect the Church back in 1948. In fact the AoG in the USA now rejects outright that the Offices of the apostle and prophet exist outside of the early church; but they do recognize that people still perform these roles in today's church, which in my view is a contradiction in terms but I can understand their desire to disassociate themselves from the Latter-Rain and the NARzie movements. It’s interesting in that the AoG (Australia) recognise both the Office of the apostle and prophet which stands in contrast to their US counterparts; I have no idea about how the other National AoG bodies feel about these two Offices.
If you want any evidence for what I have said without the need to read the Scriptures, then I will probably be on safe ground by saying that all you need to do is to pick up the first peer-reviewed commentary that you come across that talks about the role of the a/Apostle; but of course, as you say, I can light heartedly reply by saying that these are only the views of men who are apparently basing their opinions on human tradition, where the NARzie super-Apostles have the advantage in that they have some form of extra-biblical revelation (or links to heaven) which the rest of us poor mortals are unable to obtain.
If anything, any NARzie who tries to falsely link his 'ministry' to that of Eph 2:20 is not so much committing heresy but possibly blasphemy, as he is trying to say that he has been appointed by Christ to the Church in the same manner as the Twelve and Paul; from what my Scriptures tell me in 2 Cor 11 and particularly with verses 12 & 13, that there are “
those who want an opportunity to be considered equal to us in the things that they boast about. For such men are false apostles, deceitful workman, masquerading as Apostles-of-Christ”.
Now Paul is not saying that they are necessarily false apostles, but that they are false Apostles-of-Christ, the two are not one and the same. This means that there will be those individuals who are by their temperament are rightfully apostles, but where these same individuals will try and push the threshold by elevating themselves to be Apostles-of-Christ.
For the time after the last Apostle-of-Christ died, which would have been John, the implication would be that this particular Office ended with Paul (thought the Twelve and Paul were commissioned and not given an Office), but that there are will be those whose egos (and “deceit”) is so strong that they will even try to elevate themselves to the rank of Paul where they will try to impose themselves onto the church as Apostles-of-Christ, which is nothing less than blasphemy let alone a heresy.
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The following is a daft of a future document. This draft might be a bit hard to read for some but the future expanded PDF version will be easier to read.]
- How do the Greek Scriptures speak of the apostle – a few preliminaries
One of the interesting things that I find about any study into a subject I feel that I know fairly well, is with how something may jump up at me for the first time, which is what has occurred with how the English translations employ our English
apostle to represent the Greek Scriptures.
Does an apostle equate to “someone who is sent” or “a messenger”?
Most of us would probably accept the populist definition of an apostle as being ‘someone who has been sent’ or ‘who is a messenger’ (as I did) but what I discovered is that this meaning is not something that is associated with the Greek
apostolos (GK693/SC652) which we translate into our English a/Apostle. The Greek word which best reflects “someone who is sent” is
pempo (GK4287/SC3992) which is used 79 times in the Greek NT:
[GK = Goodrick/Kohlenberger number, SC = Strong’s
Matt 2:8 Then he sent them to Bethlehem
Matt 11:2 he sent his disciples to ask him [John the Baptist sent his disciples in his name.]
Matt 14:10 So he sent and had John beheaded
Matt 22:7 The king was furious! He sent his troops and destroyed
Mark 5:12 “Send us to the pigs
Luke 4:26; 7:6,10,19; 15:15; 16:24,27; 20:11,12,13
John 1:22, 33; 4:34; 5:23, 24, 30, 37; 6:38,39,44; 7:16,18,28,33; 8:16,18,26,29; 9:4; 12:44,45,49; 13:16,20; 14:24,26; 15:21,26; 16:5,7; 20:21
Acts 10:5,32,33; 11:29; 15:22,25; 19:31; 20:17; 23:30; 23:25,27
Rom 8:3 God by sending his own Son [God + sending = apostolos. God is the one who commissions.]
1Cor 4:17 For this reason I have sent to you Timothy [Paul has sent = Timothy working under Paul’s commissioning.]
1Cor 16:3 to the men you approve and send them with your gift
2Cor 9:3 But I am sending these brothers
Eph 6:22 I am sending him to you for this very purpose
Php 2:19,23,25,28; 4:16
Col 4:8 I am sending him to you for the express purpose
1Thes 3:2,5
2Thes 2:11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion
Tit 3:12 As soon as I send Artemas
1Pet 2:14 who are sent by him to punish
Rev 1:11; 11:10; 14:15,18; 22:16
It was rightfully pointed out by the TDNT (
Theological Dictionary of the New Testament pp.67-75) on page 70;
“The NT contains no trace of the common nonbiblical use for the act of sending or, figuratively, the object. Always signified is the person sent with full authority. The Greek gives only the form, the Hebrew the content.”
Apostole (GK692/SC651) is used 4 times where the NIV2 employs;
Acts 1:25 to take over this apostolic ministry (ἀποστολῆς) n.gsf
Rom 1:5 Through him we have received grace and apostleship (ἀποστολὴν) n.asf
1Cor 9:2 Am I not an apostle? (ἀπόστολοσ) n.nsm
Gal 2:8 For God who was at work in Peter as an apostle (ἀποστολὴν) n.asf
What Greek word is used for an a/Apostle
As was mentioned above, the Greek word that is employed for “someone who is sent” or who “is a messenger” was the Greek word
pempo where this word can be employed to refer to anyone who was sent for any reason to perform any task imaginable
. When the Scriptures speak of those who are a/Apostles, the Greek word
apostolos (GK693/SC652) is employed, where it can refer to both the Apostle-of-Christ or to a congregational apostle (where the congregational apostle is equivalent to the contemporary church planter or a missionary who is
directly involved in establishing new churches).
Addition: When the title a/Apostle is being employed, it will have either a direct reference, or the connotation that the person who is an
a/Apostle has been either a
uthorised (
a) or
commissioned (
A) to perform a task. The Greek word
apostolos when used within earlier classic Greek, as will be indicated within the Liddel-Scott (Classic Greek Lexicon) or with Thayers (1832) Lexicon, will rightfully suggest that "a sending" or "sending out" is the meaning in classical Greek, but this is never the case within the NT.
Edit: Last paragraph insert hours after the original post.
Edit: typo
